Guest aceman Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 stooging pantomime style of flair & the horseman could be painful to watch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlittlekitten Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Stooging Panto villains are the very best thing about wrestling. Flair or Bret? It's apples and oranges really. It depends what you want from a wrestler. I want overblown but convincing personalities. Bret was a class wrestler but had all the character of a rusty baked bean tin. 1997 Bret was the best Bret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 Apparently on his new DVD Bret kills Flair as a worker again. Oh boy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 He doesn't bury Flair completely. He praises his work ethic but states that Flair had no psychology at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 You thought Bret might've spent his time off watching tonnes of old NWA stuff and re-evaluated him? If anything... I'm kinda glad there's some wrestler of note who isn't "Flair's the man!", if only for that slight amount of variety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 If anything... I'm kinda glad there's some wrestler of note who isn't "Flair's the man!", if only for that slight amount of variety.It plays into the "one-note Flair" myth that lots of people who only watch WWF/WWE believe. So, no, I'd rather not have another person chiming in with the same old garbage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 Shane Douglas got it right by saying he's an asshole, but in no way denying his ability and influence as a worker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 That was actually Foley's original point in Have A Nice Day too. Well, that, and being a lousy booker, but mostly just that Flair wasn't a nice person. Over time, it morphed into Flair defending himself against an argument that he held down Foley in WCW, which Foley never really said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 Does anyone actually think Flair was a lousy booker? 89 and 94 don't stand out as bad years from a product point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 Does anyone actually think Flair was a lousy booker? 89 and 94 don't stand out as bad years from a product point of view. 1994's booking wasn't very good. Flair pushed all his old buddies on top. Of course since it means Steamboat and Arn getting pushes, "workrate" fans enjoy it, but seen in context and in retrospect, Flair's booking in 1994 really looks egotistical and doesn't build at all toward the future. Austin, Pillman and Dustin all took major setbacks during Flair's run as a booker in 1994 (not to mention the unbearable Bunkhouse Buck push, which he only got because his cousin Robert Fuller was on the booking comitee with Flair), and Flair was all about getting a big program with Hogan, not work with the younger guys. Shane Douglas is 100% right about Flair during that time. To say I was very underwhelmed with the first half of 1994 is an understatement. The last real cool booking of the company before the good Nitro years was during Watts last months, in very late 92 and especially early 93. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 Do we get to hear on Bret's new DVD which of today's workers compare to him and who throws out little nods to him on every single show? Goodie, goodie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 For someone who supposedly wasn't a draw, they sure make a lot of DVDs about Bret Hart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 For someone who supposedly wasn't a draw, they sure make a lot of DVDs about Bret Hart. Depends who is buying them. Good sales figures for a DVD are much lower than good sales figures for a PPV. If 30,000 hardcores buy the DVD it is good business for them. Doesn't mean he will/did draw massive gates around the country or sell huge shows as a headliner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 Bret wasn't a big draw, but he was always a reliable decent-mid-level draw... hence him always getting the belt back in that era. More important was his resonance... hence the US vs. Canada/The World feud working as well as it did. I can't speak for the US, but his book-signing turn outs in the UK dwarfed the turn-outs for infinitely more "famous" people... it's no surprise that his DVDs sell in larger quantities than other guys'... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 For someone who supposedly wasn't a draw, they sure make a lot of DVDs about Bret Hart. Depends who is buying them. Good sales figures for a DVD are much lower than good sales figures for a PPV. If 30,000 hardcores buy the DVD it is good business for them. Doesn't mean he will/did draw massive gates around the country or sell huge shows as a headliner. I'm not arguing that at all. My post was just an observation. Not trying to make any sort of larger point. I could be missing a few, but it looks like Hart has four DVDs where he is the main draw or co-main draw. Austin also has four, Hogan has three and Rock has two. I get that generating PPV buys and ticket sales > DVD sales, but you'd think WWE would devote more DVDs to the latter three since they were at the top of the two most recent wrestling booms. If you can sell tix and generate PPV buys, your name should also result in a bunch of DVD sales. If one were so inclined, and I'm not so inclined but I can at least see the argument, one could argue that timing is everything in life. Wrestling was due for a mainstream boom in the mid-80s and late 90s and Brett could have done the job if he were given the torch instead of Hogan/Austin/Rock. By the time Bret got his turn, people were burned out on wrestling and saw Bret as a tag-team guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 Does anyone actually think Flair was a lousy booker? 89 and 94 don't stand out as bad years from a product point of view. 1989 was good, thought impacted by the guy above Flair. Blaming everything on Herd can be overplayed, but there clearly was a lot of truth in him being a negative. Credit for Ric in that period is a bit tricky. He didn't come up with all the ideas nor block the stuff out. It sounds more like the had a decent team of guys around him, and as the "head" booker was good at letting them do stuff. With someone in the place of Herd, it probably was a good team for the time... except that it didn't make money relative to the WWF. Catch-22 there. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 I think Rock has actually had 5 if you count original WWF DVD releases (People's Champ and Just Bring It) and the Cena/Rock DVD. If we count DX stuff, then Michaels has had 8 releases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 Would be interesting to have the total including CHV stuff. For example, from Graham's site: The Undertaker: His Gravest Matches (12/15/93) #126 Bret "The Hitman" Hart (8/10/94) #140 Razor Ramon (10/5/94) #143 Shawn Michaels: The Heartbreak Express Tour (3/11/97) #168 Hogan likely has the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 I think Rock has actually had 5 if you count original WWF DVD releases (People's Champ and Just Bring It) and the Cena/Rock DVD. If we count DX stuff, then Michaels has had 8 releases. Ah yes, forgot the early Rock releases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 I get that generating PPV buys and ticket sales > DVD sales, but you'd think WWE would devote more DVDs to the latter three since they were at the top of the two most recent wrestling booms. If you can sell tix and generate PPV buys, your name should also result in a bunch of DVD sales. To make a music analogy, Perry Como had the 9th best selling album of the 1970s, with sales of at least seven million copies. He was part of a 'boom'. Nick Drake sold about 5,000 copies of 'Five Leaves Left'. Yet it is Drake who has had far more archive releases and DVDs/books/programs about his life. No music fan is interested in Como anymore: most are still interested in Drake. Como's fans were merely casual. Extreme example but maybe that is how WWE sees Bret - a guy whose fans were long term fans, in comparison to the more flash in the pan stars who appealed to the casual fan as the industry boomed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 Excellent analogy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JazeUSA Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 I just wanna point out that I love Flair & Bret, I grew up watching Flair at the Dorton Arena every Tuesday night in the early & mid-eighties.... HOWEVER Flair is easily the better of the two WORKERS, case & point is as follows: Flair had great wrestling & entertaining matches w/ guys everywhere he ever went period, overseas, wccw, puerto rico, wwf, Japan, St.Louis, AWA, the list is endless, & while Bret has several, several very good or even in some eyes great matches in the wwf, he didn't have ANY great matches once he left the wwf & went to WCW (except for the tribute match w/ Benoit & a few Booker T matches). The rest of his WCW tenure was very ummm forgetful at best, Ive heard him blame his lack luster performances on WCW's booking time & time again, but being a professional wrestler for 13 years myself I can say w/o hesitation a GREAT worker can wrestle & have a good match with ANYONE at all times. Bret Hart IMO couldn't do that on a consistent basis & his WCW run proved it. I've seen Ric Flair wrestle jobber George South & make him look like Dusty Rhodes for 20 minutes before ''going home'' w/ the match when other were squashing him in 2 minutes on a weekly basis, he had great matches w/ all types of wrestlers all different sizes & skill levels, how many good matches did Bret get out of Lex Luger again? I'm not bashing Bret, he is one of my personal favorites off all time as well but he is not on Flairs level. Right now Flair has a 2:1 lead in the voting so thats good to see lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andrews Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 I voted Bret. Basically I feel he has a better body of - quality of quantity - in the ring. Watched the new Flair shoot and Flair says he has no idea why Bret hates him and that they always got on. Speculates because he has publicly stated Bret needs to get over Montreal (Bret probably would the second everybody else stopped boring on about it too...) and when Owen died he carried on working in Montreal soon after. But God knows what goes on behind closed doors. Considering what's happened to Ric this month - it would be nice of Bret to change his Twitter photo though.. I'd like to see the two kiss and make up, they are both legends. I always find it odd how two guys who have so many close mutual friends (Both are VERY close with Piper) can be at ends like that. Frankly, I think a night out in the 80's with these two would have been epic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 That Perry Como comparison is awful, man. Como first hit it big in the 1950's and managed to stay popular with his audience for over 25 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 I voted Bret. Basically I feel he has a better body of - quality of quantity - in the ring. How do you figure that? Loss has a tremendous post somewhere of a couple of weeks from 1985 where Flair has a series of great matches with all sorts of different opponents in different promotions. Matches that all made separate DVDR 80s sets and ranked well in the voting. That's just in a 2-week stretch. From 78 to 94 the number of ****+ Flair matches probably runs into triple numbers. What is the list of Bret matches you'd point to? I'm interested because I'm one of the people who thinks that this isn't even close. Flair has so many more great matches against so many different opponents that he's not even in the same league as Bret. Also, I think variety is a big part of Flair's body of work. We know Bret can work technical masterpieces, but what else can he do? What are some examples of Bret dragging a great match out of an average opponent? What are some examples of Bret working wild brawls? What are some examples of Bret working a match where he makes a JTTS look like a million bucks? What are some examples of Bret working a match where he feels like the biggest deal on earth? Maybe I've just seen too much Flair and need to see more Bret, but my strong feeling is that where you could point to dozens of examples of the above for Flair, Bret will struggle for a handful of examples, which tend to be the same ones time and again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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