GFOAT

[Marty]

Bull Nakano should be in the conversation.

I have a soft spot for Bull because of how she kept AJW going during during the post-Crush Gals, pre-Hokuto (in her prime) era. Plus she had a damn good long run that included those eras too and produced some memorable matches and angles. I don't know if her North American stuff means that much, but her work with Blayze opened the doors for more WWF work for Joshi (particulary Aja) before Blayze jumped. I don't know if this is enough for her to be considered the all time greatest, but she had an impressive career. She didn't have to deal with the age cap, did she? Still, though, fine run.

[MJH]

Trish was only "very good" in relation to what was around her, though she did end up far better than anyone would've predicted in 2000/1 when she came in and deserves credit for putting the work in.

 

As for "good for Joshi"... I don't think Death From Above's (possible) insinuation (which would apply to some boards) applies here; I never read it as "good by women's standards", criticisms of the fast-paced style have existed for years, and I know enough from Childs' and other's posts to know it wasn't meant with any sexist intent. There are, as I mentioned above, plenty of valid criticisms one could make against Toyota; my only qualm would be that, if she's "the female Kurt Angle", she's a much better version. I'm not a particularly big fan of Toyota myself, really - as far as favourites go she's probably not even Top 10 - I just stand by my position that, for those negatives, there's just as many strengths, if not more, and something like the 60:00 with Kyoko is, if nothing else, one of the more remarkable athletic feats in wrestling (or nearly).

 

But I mean, having listened to Will's podcast with Phil and Kris this morning putting it in my head, you get similar comments about Lucha, for instance, and, like Lucha, you get tonnes of stuff that's not in that presumed style too.

[MJH]

Bull Nakano should be in the conversation.

I have a soft spot for Bull because of how she kept AJW going during during the post-Crush Gals, pre-Hokuto (in her prime) era. Plus she had a damn good long run that included those eras too and produced some memorable matches and angles. I don't know if her North American stuff means that much, but her work with Blayze opened the doors for more WWF work for Joshi (particulary Aja) before Blayze jumped. I don't know if this is enough for her to be considered the all time greatest, but she had an impressive career. She didn't have to deal with the age cap, did she? Still, though, fine run.

 

This. You really need to see that whole late-'89->'92 run to appreciate her full worth. Whilst you could see the signs in the talent, none of them were near "the finished product" and she just delivered show after show. Even the odd singles match you'd get from her AJW Title run circa 85-6 within a year or two of her debuting and when she was still about 17 or so, just nice little matches and better than most of the girls were doing at that comparative stage of their careers. She really was just one of the best talents the company ever had.

[El-P]

I used to be a "joshi expert"... Well, a huge joshi fan at the very least. So. There it goes, in no order : Akira Hokuto, Aja Kong, Mayumi Ozaki, Megumi Kudo, Bull Nakano, Chiggy, Devil Masami, Jaguar Yokota and my all-time favourite pro-wrestler ever, Mariko Yoshida.

[thebrainfollower]

I really don't watch any joshi because to me wrestling is also about storyline and historical context and I have zero knowledge going in.

 

I may sound like a WWE mark but for women's wrestling in the US I'd happily argue Trish Stratus. Not the best worker but darn good at her peak of 02-retirement, could cut a decent promo after a year stumbling and looked great. I respected the fact that anyone who looked like THAT actually respected and cared enough about pro wrestling to become good at it (see Torrie or Stacy for the other approach) If you use the Bret Hart score cards of look, workrate and promo I would say best in the US of all time. And fans cared about her and Lita a heck of a lot more than anyone cared about Madusa/Alundra Blayze or anyone in TNA, which usually gets brought up.

 

Having said that I am sure there are 50 joshi girls miles ahead of her in workrate. But is that all we are asking about?

 

And I've seen about 20 Velvet matches. I cannot see any way that Trish doesn't surpass her, but a lot of that might be Velvet's opponents I guess.

[Jimmy Redman]

I think Trish was legitimately the best heel in WWE/the US in 2004. That may sound like damning with faint praise depending on how you feel about that time period, but the point is for a girl in that company, it's pretty impressive.

[WingedEagle]

I've seen most of the touted matches from the highly touted stuff from the glory years during the mid 90s (but quite some time ago). The one person I really need to go back and dig through older material for is Bull. I know Aja, Hokuto & Toyota had the snowflakes flowing quite freely from 92 on, but Bull has a presence and style that's just so different and unique. The way she carries herself in both baby and heel fashion is something else. Purely personal taste but I'm always just a tad more attuned when she's doing her thing than some others.

[Bierschwale]

Bull had the most complex character and one that actually provides her with a slightly better dynamic as a heel than Aja, to me. She just seems completely insane and wounded. The match against Hokuto and Kandori is my favorite for showing this off-- she plays it with a Funk-like paranoia. She has a degree of vulnerability for such a monster heel, which is eternally appealing.

 

I don't enjoy anyone in wrestling more than I do Oz, though.

[Zenjo]

"Anyone who doesn't think that Chyna is the greatest women's wrestler of all time is delusional."

 

Sadly I can't take credit for that gem.

 

I remember the Smarkchoice greatest women's wrestler poll from 04 or 05 time. There was some really high quality discussion and I learnt a lot from taking part in it. There was also frankp316 getting in an argument with every single other poster about a variety of subjects. I'm not sure if the results from that are still up somewhere?

[jdw]

What one has to accept with Toyota is that her style *is the house style*, she did it better than anyone, and her body held up incredibly well allowing her to be a strong talent for far longer than she had any right to be, really. She's as good as any wrestler has ever been offensively, as good a FIP as there's ever been, and on just about any Best 50 Joshi Matches Ever list she'd crop up the most. Her flaws are well-documented, but her strengths are undeniable and she has to be up there in "Tier 2" at worst (to copy the other thread).

I'd pretty much say the same thing about Kobashi for his style.

 

John

[DR Ackermann]

Outside of Joshi, what are some really good women's matches from the last 30 years?

[Loss]

I'd like to know more about top women's matches in lucha libre. I was sort of hoping at least one might make the 80s lucha set, but I know footage is limited and I'm also not sure how the matches are even if they are available.

[Tim Evans]

I can't remember a better Lucha women's match than Fabi vs Mari Apache from Triplemania.

[Jimmy Redman]

For recent WWE, some matches I'd throw at you:

 

Trish vs Mickie, NYR 2006 and WM22

Trish vs Lita, Raw 6/12/04 (with the horrific bump) and Unforgiven 2004

Mickie vs Melina, Backlash 2007

Melina vs Beth ( I Quit), ONS 2008

 

And also Kong vs Kim at Final Resolution 2008, and probably every other time as well.

[cm funk]

I've never been a Joshi watcher so I can't fairly rate any of them. I like what I've seen of it (some of the high end rated stuff and stuff from the biggest names, and the girls who came over and worked the states of course), but I was never a tape buyer of it and mostly just read about it until it became easy to find stuff via the internet.

 

Where does Cutie Suzuki rank?

 

Best from North America is a much more interesting question. There had to be some really good workers in the 60's-70's who don't get their due due to lack of footage, lack of people caring about womens wrestling as anything but a novelty etc. Probably in the modern era the best female workers are people like Sara Del Ray, McChif, Allison Danger who aren't considered attractive enough to get a WWE/TNA break. Awesome Kong is great, obviously. Hamada's daughter was really good IMO....who are some of the other good Mexican women? I've seen names like Sexy Star and Faby Apache touted, but never seen any of their matches.

 

I haven't seen much GLOW, who would be considered the best worker from that promotion?

 

best woman from the WWE is a totally different question. It might be AJ Lee. I liked Michelle McCool a lot, thought she was really underrated. Beth Phoenix was really good. Trish was good. Mickie James was good. Gail Kim is good. Lita was ok overall, but she was sloppy as hell a lot of the time. Melina was pretty solid, not as solid as Bret Hart thought, but for a WWE diva she was solid with some cool spots.

[rzombie1988]

I've never been a Joshi watcher so I can't fairly rate any of them. I like what I've seen of it (some of the high end rated stuff and stuff from the biggest names, and the girls who came over and worked the states of course), but I was never a tape buyer of it and mostly just read about it until it became easy to find stuff via the internet.

 

Where does Cutie Suzuki rank?

 

Best from North America is a much more interesting question. There had to be some really good workers in the 60's-70's who don't get their due due to lack of footage, lack of people caring about womens wrestling as anything but a novelty etc. Probably in the modern era the best female workers are people like Sara Del Ray, McChif, Allison Danger who aren't considered attractive enough to get a WWE/TNA break. Awesome Kong is great, obviously. Hamada's daughter was really good IMO....who are some of the other good Mexican women? I've seen names like Sexy Star and Faby Apache touted, but never seen any of their matches.

 

I haven't seen much GLOW, who would be considered the best worker from that promotion?

 

best woman from the WWE is a totally different question. It might be AJ Lee. I liked Michelle McCool a lot, thought she was really underrated. Beth Phoenix was really good. Trish was good. Mickie James was good. Gail Kim is good. Lita was ok overall, but she was sloppy as hell a lot of the time. Melina was pretty solid, not as solid as Bret Hart thought, but for a WWE diva she was solid with some cool spots.

As for the GLOW girls, the two best were Ninotchka and Attache. Ninotchka had some good matches, charisma, was good on the mic and in skits and overall just hit a home run with her character. She really deserved a run anywhere because she was good enough. She was also naturally attractive, as opposed to the implants and all that. She's still pretty hot now too. Attache was their de-facto veteran who worked with all of the new girls. The crowd liked her and she wasn't a bad worker at all. She always bumped big. She had a good submission match with Tina Ferrari/Ivory. I'd put Ninotchka above Trish. Tina Ferrari/Ivory was good too but she wasn't as good character wise. She and Ninotchka had a really good title match in POWW.

 

Other good wrestlers in GLOW:

Susie Spirit - She did the cheerleader gimmick but she had a gymnastics background and would bust out stuff not many other people did. She was rather creative and likeable.

Spanish Red - Red is really popular. She just had great fire and she felt real. Everyone likes Spanish Red.

 

Faby Apache is really good. She's one of the best faces and deserves a lot more love. She can work and she can work well.

[cm funk]

Ninotchka looks like a cross between Debbie Harry and Wendy O Williams

[rzombie1988]

I think they were going for Ivan Drago's wife, as she looks similar.

[El-P]

Where does Cutie Suzuki rank?

Good solid worker. Nowhere near the top, but underrated for the longest time to me.

[NintendoLogic]

I don't mean to sound like Bryan Alvarez, but Cutie Suzuki ran the ropes about as well as Kelly Kelly.

[stunning_grover]

In my opinion, there are only about 6 workers strong candidates for GFOAT...

 

Chigusa Nagayo

Yumi Ikeshita

Jaguar Yokota

Akira Hokuto

Manami Toyota

Aja Kong

 

Honorable mentions are...

 

Mayumi Ozaki

Devil Masami

Bull Nakano

Kyoko Inoue

 

 

I see Cuty Suzuki being mentioned. While not a GFOAT candidate, her work is quite underrated and she's pretty much a "tier 4" worker (taking a page from the "tier 2, tier 3, tier 4" thread).

[ohtani's jacket]

Cutie was a hard worker. She was better athletically earlier in her career. Later on she had a lot of back trouble.

[cm funk]

Thanks for the opinions on Cutie. From what I've seen she was a good underdog babyface type, and like ohtani's jacket said, a hard worker. I can appreciate obvious hard work to be good in the ring as much as I can great athletic or technical prowess. From the Joshi I've watched she was one of my favorites and someone who stuck out to me for some of the little things she did, though I knew she wouldn't be considered one of the better workers when I asked the question.

[pantherwagner]

It has got to be Jaguar Yokota.

 

90s names like Mayumi Ozaki or Kyoko Inoue are helped on this conversation because AJW ran more themed shows with visibility than in the 80s. If they had booked their supercards in the 80s like in the 90s (both in number and spreading the names on top where "lesser names" are given their chance to shine without the spotlight always being on Crush Girls or Dump's Army) the discussion would be very different and we'd be talking about Jumbo Hori or maybe Noriyo Tateno at the same level at least as far as work goes.

[S.L.L.]

With the 80's Lucha set ready to roll, I should probably start trying to make a dent in the big stack of 80's Joshi I have, because the small sampling I've watched so far blew my doors in.

 

Jaguar Yokota & Yukari Omori vs. Devil Masami & Jumbo Hori

 

It's been a while since I've watched any 80's joshi, and seeing this now, I think I just remembered why so many of your fancy-schmancy M0VES!! wrestlers don't impress me. It's because I've already seen Jaguar Yokota. When you've seen a wrestler who does two or three things per match that no one else has done before or since, and executes them flawlessly and in a way that makes sense in the greater context of the match, it's a lot harder for any given member of the Dragon's Gate roster to impress you.

 

Of course, I could only guess at the "greater context" of this match. The damn thing moved so fast that to try and point to an over-arching story is a bit of a struggle. But I can't - and won't - complain. The fact that a match from 1985 could still be this eye-popping in 2010, that it could move at this speed, and that all that high-tech offense could be executed so perfectly without giving me anything to get hung up about (well, OK, maybe Omori constantly wiping her nose when she wasn't doing or taking a move was a little odd...allergies acting up?) means that you can get away with "these are two teams in a competitive sport competing against each other" as your only storyline of note. I don't know how this will hold up as I go along, but just as a baseline for 80's joshi greatness, it comes on pretty damn strong, so I'm not gonna fight the feeling.

 

JB Angels vs. Dump Matsumoto & Bull Nakano

 

One thing you won't forget about 80's joshi even if you haven't watched it in a while is that Dump Matsumoto is a top ten heel of all time, and consequently, it's not hard to pick up on the context of this match almost immediately as she and Bull (who looks alarmingly like Shark Tsuchiya at this point, but thankfully doesn't wrestle like her) roll in, with Dump swinging her kendo stick at everything that moves. The plucky Jumping Bomb Angels aren't afraid to get in the grill of the big bullies, with Itsuki actually having the balls to shove Dump when she tries to intimidate her. This is all about the Angels trying their best to stand their ground as the heels pull every dirty trick in the book (many in full view of the ref, who I'm pretty sure isn't Dump's heel ref, unless she has two...and she's not afraid of pushing this one around) to try and get the win. Some of the stuff with the ref getting bullied didn't sit right with me, but fuck it, this was still a crazy great monster heels vs. plucky underdog faces brawl, and feels like an easy nomination. Bonus points for Itsuki monkey flipping the cowardly ref post-match.

 

Crush Girls vs. Dump Matsumoto & Bull Nakano (2/3, 1985 Tag League Finals)

 

Holy mother of fuck. This was like the best possible version of the Raven/Richards vs. Pitbulls 2/3 falls dog collar match, as it is just a total booking clusterfuck, but said clusterfuck booking was soooooooo good, and the in-ring action was able to match it. Dump's Army hits the ring dressed in identical kung fu uniforms and some of the best masks I've ever seen in wrestling, black with a red bird design over the face and a skull on the forehead. The Crush Gals roll out, and Lioness grabs away one of the planks that one of the army members was carrying and snaps it over her knee. Chigusa grabs another and bonks one of the Army members with it. Dump and Bull respond in kind by taking the bouquets given to the Crush Gals and violently chucking them aside before the entire army rushes them. The other babyfaces in the tournament, who have come to ringside to watch, get in the ring to even the score, and the whole thing is just insane in the best possible way. The ring clears out, and Bull goes into her nunchaku demonstration, but Lioness says "fuck that" and just kicks the shit out of her before unmasking her. Dump meets a similar fate soon afterwords, and then tempers flare and all the girls on the outside end up back in again. Dump's Army starts fucking up Chiggy's knee to the point that even her heel ref decides that enough is enough and awards the first fall to the Crush Gals by DQ. The second fall doesn't go quite so well for our heroines, as Lioness gets spiked with a piledriver en route to Dump scoring the pin to even things up. In a rare moment for puroresu, the piledriver is sold like death, and subsequently, the third fall becomes a glorified handicap match. Chigusa fights valiantly, and Lioness recovers a bit and tries to lend a hand (but gets choked out with Dump's chain for her troubles), but the heels continue to target Chigusa's bum knee. The girls on the outside keep getting involved, getting into fights with each other, trying to save their respective teams in the match, and one of the announcers even has to fight off a member of Dump's Army as she tries to steal a table from him to use as a foreign object. She doesn't need it, though. We get a false finish as officials hit the ring to determine whether or not the match should continue. They give the thumbs up, but a few more minutes of knee destruction later, and they have to declare Chigusa to be in no condition to continue, giving the match and the tournament to Dump and Bull. This wasn't perfect, but there were large swaths of this where it felt like the entire roster was living and dying on this match, and I think that makes it an easy nomination.

 

Jaguar Yokota vs. Monica Castillo

 

Match opens with a handshake, but Castillo goes rudo and blasts Jag with a flying headbutt when her back is turned. Jaguar gives it right back to her with a swank dropkick, and shit is on. This match is fairly light on Jaguar's high-end offense, focusing instead on these two ripping each other up on the mat. Extra special bonus points for Jaguar doing her awesome slide out from under a pin attempt right into an octopus hold. Dump's Army is ringside and gets involved at one point, but it doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things. This is about rough and tumble matwork, and it rules. Easy nomination.

 

Irma González vs. Mika Komatsu

 

Irma has a Mexican Vivian Vance-ness about her. She certainly wrestles like a grizzled veteran luchadora, and is totally awesome rudoing it up here, trying to corner Komatsu or get her trapped in the ropes whenever possible. She also busted out a double stump puller where she was biting Komatsu's toes while in the hold. Komatsu definitely held her own as the plucky young girl who refused to be bullied, constantly striking back whenever Gonzalez tried to push her around. There's a babyface referee here who doesn't take kindly to the shenanigans of Dump's Army at ringside (which gets him shoved down by someone at one point), which was a nice change of pace from the platoon of El Tirantes that AJW apparently used as the core of their officiating staff in the 80's. Also of note are the announcers. The cameras cut to their shocked reactions at several points in the match, including one point near the end where Komatsu is trapped outside the ring getting mugged by Dump's Army, and one of the announcers is actually standing up yelling at them. Finish is anti-climactic. I dug Irma's luchariffic pinning combination, but it was pretty abrupt. Still, I think I can push this as a low-end nomination.

 

Jaguar Yokota, Devil Masami & Yumi Ogura vs. JB Angels & Yukari Omori

 

Another M0VES~! match that Tyler Black cries himself to sleep at night over knowing he'll never be able to replicate it's quality. And this is a low-end nomination! That's largely down to Noriyo Tateno, who did plenty of awesome things, but seemed to struggle with the pacing of the match, either getting too far ahead or lagging too far behind at several points. The other five all came up big, though. Ogura may have been the star of the bout. Loved her jumping kneelifts, and the running somersault senton was amazing. Yokota was her usual awesome self. Seeing her bridge out of a pin right to her feet never gets old. Masami and Omori (who seemed to have gotten over her sniffles) definitely made things interesting. They slowed down the pace of the match a few times to show off their power and bruising abilities, both against each other and their opponents, but it didn't throw off the flow of a largely fast-paced match at all. It's like the bridge of "I Wanna Hold Your Hand". You go from rocking to waltzing and back again without ever missing a beat. Masami's brutalization of Yamazaki particularly stood out. She lifted her for a vertical suplex, and then turned it into a military press, which was pretty impressive. And if then since dropping her with that apparently wasn't enough, she picked her up again for a fucking GANSO BOMB that was an instant replay moment for me. It lacked the dramatics that would make me push it harder, and like I said, Tateno was a bit off, but fuck, was this ever eye-popping.

 

Crush Girls vs. Irma Aguilar & Bull Nakano (2/3)

 

Aguilar's haircut, headband, and tasseled vest make me think of a transsexual Jerry Estrada. And well, we don't get Estrada-level bumping here, but there is some quality Estrada rudismo and stooging. She also looks facially like Sandra Bernhardt, which makes the arguing with the ref all the more amusing. But she is really good ripping at Chigusa's ear in between the comedy stuff. Crush Gals come up big as usual. They work really well as babyface team getting the better of stooging heels. And Bull adjusts to the stooge role well, though she can still get rough when she needs to. It helps having the creepy, masked version of Dump's Army standing sternly at ringside the whole time. Match is partially about Dump's former main heel ref trying to redeem himself, as he works this match straight and - while still being kinda lax with the rules - isn't afraid to admonish the heels or lay the count on them if they get out of line. Indeed, he lets the Army beat on the Crush Gals on the outside, but the first fall ends in a double count out as a result (and he may have been counting a little fast, at that, though maybe that's me reading too much into what was happening). Knowing they can't afford to screw around anymore, the second fall in all action. Irma plays "hide the foreign object" with Bull's nunchaku a little bit, but it's not a major focus of the match, and it's mostly about getting them to Bull. But once Bull gets them, Lioness cuts her off big time while she's showing off her skills, leading to our heroines taking the second fall and the win. Easy nomination.

From a purely mechanical standpoint, Jaguar Yokota has to be the best wrestler I've ever seen, female or otherwise. I am someone who is very hesitant to label anyone the "best whatever ever", but at least on that front, she is so far ahead of the competition that I really can't see any other option to point to.