Sean Liska Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 First, Bryan was supposed to go over at NOC. Then it was supposed to happen at Battleground. Then it was supposed to happen at HIAC. Now it's going to happen at Survivor Series. Or maybe the Rumble or even Mania. Is there a cutoff? Or are people going to insist that Bryan getting the last laugh is just around the corner in perpetuity? Who ever thought they would blow off the storyline three weeks after they started it? No one should have thought he was going to win at NOC, much less a nothing B-show like Battleground. HITC is the first time I thought he had a chance. The biggest show of the fall is next month. And if he doesn't win then, what's to say he doesn't win the Rumble? The bottom line is we've heard nothing from Meltzer about WWE being unhappy with him or planning on scaling back his push, so there's a lot of panicking in this thread that is probably unnecessary. You guys would have hated pulling for Kawada or Kobashi back in the day if two months without the big win is this excruciating. I would also understand worrying if he lost relatively cleanly last night, or they did it in a decisive way that seemed to blow off the storyline. But he didn't get the RVD/Booker T vs. HHH treatment. Three of the biggest stars of the last decade had to conspire against him to screw him out of a win after he'd gotten a visual pinfall and knocked out Orton and HHH with the knee. They're still protecting him like a headline guy. And they're keeping Cena occupied with the WHC, leaving the path open for Bryan to continue his quest. They're kinda stuck being all in with this Daniel Bryan push. They killed Ziggler's face push. They turned Del Rio back heel. The Rock may not be coming back. Undertaker works once a year. The list of legit top babyfaces consists of Cena, Punk, and Bryan. There's no one close that can take one of their places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Kawada and Kobashi had Baba booking for them and hindsight has shown plenty of times that Kawada should have taken the belt at numerous points. But that's another thread for another time. It's not panic so much as it's booking that is done terribly. There are ways to build to someone winning a belt that are a lot better than a Dusty finish, a no contest and the latest chapter in HHH and HBK figuring out when to tell Steph that the baby is actually Shawn's, not hers. Everyone agrees that Bryan shouldn't have gotten the belt right back. It's just how they're going about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradhindsight Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 ^ Not to mention, Orton hasn't hit a RKO in any of their three matches yet. I thought for sure they'd do some kicking out of finishers last night since they built up to it for months but it's still on the table. Bryan "won" NOC and had the visual pinfall/submission at Battleground also. Last night Orton hit a fallaway slam and then complained when HBK couldn't count. They could have done a RKO there to really sell a visual win for Orton before the screwjob and they didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 It's not panic so much as it's booking that is done terribly. There are ways to build to someone winning a belt that are a lot better than a Dusty finish, a no contest and the latest chapter in HHH and HBK figuring out when to tell Steph that the baby is actually Shawn's, not hers. Everyone agrees that Bryan shouldn't have gotten the belt right back. It's just how they're going about it. That's entirely fair. Three straight months of screwjob finishes at $55 a pop is a tough sell and they should have come up with something more creative. I'm more talking about the discussion of Bryan being buried, of WWE giving up on him and not being behind him anymore, of WWE being down on him due to ratings and attendance, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I think it's pretty obvious that there is worry about ratings/attendance. I believe HHH/Shawn involvement and the return of Cena (especially the return of Cena) has a ton to do with that concern. Also the issue isn't that they aren't behind Bryan or that they are giving up on him. It's that the long term build here has been a myth because they have already run the feud into the ground with overexposure and a ton of screwjobs and have nothing to show for it. Bryan may very well end up where Punk is...which is a better money spot I'm told, but is really not all that strong a spot in terms of presentation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I think it's pretty obvious that there is worry about ratings/attendance. I believe HHH/Shawn involvement and the return of Cena (especially the return of Cena) has a ton to do with that concern. Also the issue isn't that they aren't behind Bryan or that they are giving up on him. It's that the long term build here has been a myth because they have already run the feud into the ground with overexposure and a ton of screwjobs and have nothing to show for it. Bryan may very well end up where Punk is...which is a better money spot I'm told, but is really not all that strong a spot in terms of presentation. HHH's involvement has been ongoing for months, and it's all part of their planned Mania angle. Shawn's involvement was reported quite a while ago by Meltzer as being part of the angle. Cena always hurries back. If ending up like Punk is a disappointment, then people probably won't be happy. That's probably where the disconnect with me is because I view Punk's spot as being pretty good. He faced Rock in two PPV main events, faced Taker at Mania, faced Lesnar at SummerSlam, headlines house shows, gets lots of TV time, cover of last year's video game, best-selling DVD, etc. If Bryan ends up in that role, I'll be pretty content. Nobody's replacing Cena right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 But the point is that they're in the angle in the first place. They aren't happy with the numbers that guys are drawing on their own, so HHH feels he and HBK need to be a part of the angle to bring up the numbers...but they aren't really draws themselves anymore. It's the idea of squeezing an apple until the very last drop of juice comes out, but the apple has gone rotten in the meantime. Punk is an apt comparison due to how he and Bryan have been presented and pushed, but the problem is that WWE fucked THAT up, too. You have a truly hot angle and then get Trips and fucking Kevin Nash involved and it all goes to shit. I doubt the majority of that crap was on Punk. I go back to Trips looking at the SummerSlam buyrates between '11 and '12 and thinking he was the guy that popped 60k buys. The more HHH and company hang around the main event scene, the less time they give guys a chance to get over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I don't want them to push someone like they pushed CM Punk. I don't even really want them to push someone like Cena. I want them to push someone as hard as Undertaker, Michaels and HHH were pushed in their primes. I want to see them go all out and actually take a risk on building around someone new, and to treat every single new star they are pushing as the potential next Hogan or Austin. I want to see them play with their television formula and create some real excitement and mystery in their angles ... that is paid off in a satisfying way that makes sense. I want the storylines to get darker and more interesting. I want wins and losses to matter. I want them to pretend during the show that this is the most real thing in the world and that everyone believes everything they are doing. I want them to present every single person on their roster as someone worth caring about. I want them to stop building angles around cynical insider perception issues designed to troll people on the Internet. I want continuity and logical explanations. I want them to reward the people that watch and have long memories. I want great announcing. I realize all of that is never going to happen, and that's fine. WWE does fine doing business the way they do now, and lots of people profit from it. There are also plenty of decent workers capable of having well worked (and pretty heatless) matches with no booking importance and some people enjoy that. More power to them. When it became possible for wrestling companies to make money in ways other than pay-per-view buys and house show attendance, it's a great deal for people within wrestling, but it makes being a wrestling fan a less exciting experience than it has the potential to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I think it's pretty obvious that there is worry about ratings/attendance. I believe HHH/Shawn involvement and the return of Cena (especially the return of Cena) has a ton to do with that concern. Also the issue isn't that they aren't behind Bryan or that they are giving up on him. It's that the long term build here has been a myth because they have already run the feud into the ground with overexposure and a ton of screwjobs and have nothing to show for it. Bryan may very well end up where Punk is...which is a better money spot I'm told, but is really not all that strong a spot in terms of presentation. I don't think what happened last night was a panic move. The dirtsheets were reporting at the beginning of September that the plan all along was to blow off Bryan/Orton at HIAC and to have Orton in the title picture through the Rumble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 What's interesting to me is that a mid-card match like Rhodes Bros. vs. The Shield was more heated than anything on the show at Battleground, and that mainly had to do with it having a worthwhile payoff and a storyline that made every little bit matter. It was really simple. There was nothing crazy about it. There were great promos, the heels were dastardly, the faces overcame the odds (and got the fans behind them in the process)...and it wasn't that hard to do! How they can do that angle and then turn around and do what they were doing with Bryan boggles my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nell Santucci Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I don't want them to push someone like they pushed CM Punk. I don't even really want them to push someone like Cena. I want them to push someone as hard as Undertaker, Michaels and HHH were pushed in their primes. I want to see them go all out and actually take a risk on building around someone new, and to treat every single new star they are pushing as the potential next Hogan or Austin. I want to see them play with their television formula and create some real excitement and mystery in their angles ... that is paid off in a satisfying way that makes sense. I want the storylines to get darker and more interesting. I want wins and losses to matter. I want them to pretend during the show that this is the most real thing in the world and that everyone believes everything they are doing. I want them to present every single person on their roster as someone worth caring about. I want them to stop building angles around cynical insider perception issues designed to troll people on the Internet. I want continuity and logical explanations. I want them to reward the people that watch and have long memories. I want great announcing. I realize all of that is never going to happen, and that's fine. WWE does fine doing business the way they do now, and lots of people profit from it. There are also plenty of decent workers capable of having well worked (and pretty heatless) matches with no booking importance and some people enjoy that. More power to them. When it became possible for wrestling companies to make money in ways other than pay-per-view buys and house show attendance, it's a great deal for people within wrestling, but it makes being a wrestling fan a less exciting experience than it has the potential to be. This is the most fair assessment of modern WWE that I've read, and it captures its essence. On an aside, Orton really does suck. I honestly have a hard time thinking of a main event act outside of Jeff Jarrett who has been more overpushed than him. Even HHH is better by a mile, and he's one of the top 5 reasons I stopped watching years ago. The love for Goldust is sad. Yes, he's a great worker when he wants to be, but we're talking about a guy who hasn't been near the main event since 1996, and he was never in the top 4 at at point in WWF's card placement. What that highlights is how badly the company needs new blood. Much of their top talent isn't ready, but if WWE pretended they were ready, we'd see vastly different results. I'd honestly be surprised without a major overhaul if WWE is around 20 years from now. A study of their demographics showcases just how long WWE has been in the early stages of cancer, and it's going to hit the company hard when guys like Undertaker, Rock, and Cena no longer can perform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I think it's pretty obvious that there is worry about ratings/attendance. I believe HHH/Shawn involvement and the return of Cena (especially the return of Cena) has a ton to do with that concern. Also the issue isn't that they aren't behind Bryan or that they are giving up on him. It's that the long term build here has been a myth because they have already run the feud into the ground with overexposure and a ton of screwjobs and have nothing to show for it. Bryan may very well end up where Punk is...which is a better money spot I'm told, but is really not all that strong a spot in terms of presentation. I don't think what happened last night was a panic move. The dirtsheets were reporting at the beginning of September that the plan all along was to blow off Bryan/Orton at HIAC and to have Orton in the title picture through the Rumble. Well here's the thing. I know I argued that they didn't blow it with Daniel Bryan... yet, but it is definitely disheartening to know that they created an unreal moment at Summerslam where Daniel Bryan for a moment, proved he could break through the glass ceiling... solely to fuck it up by putting the belt on Orton. Now I understand typically the formula is to have the hated heel take the belt to Wrestlemania and lose it to the hot babyface to validate the months of his ascension, but this is a storyline that you pay off in installments. The first installment is the obvious close but no cigar coronation at Summerslam. The second has to logically follow as having overcome permanently the major footsoldier heel (Say... Randy Orton the corporate appointed face of the WWE) as a precursor to what comes next. The third installment/final payoff is beating the uber boss (think the typical video game progression here, which in this case has obviously to be Triple H). Anything else will definitely have squandered the momentum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 There have been many problems with the storyline, but the one that I think is the worst and hardest to defend is that if the goal was to get over Bryan in any long term, serious fashion, through slow build there should have been no rematch against Orton, let alone multiple rematches with screwjobs on ppvs. On Punk, last night was one of the only meaningful wins the guy has had in a year. He's the guy who wrestles bigger names than him and you are 100 percent positive he will lose. He makes money and that's good for him. As a fan he's basically a joke as an "upper tier" guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 On Punk, last night was one of the only meaningful wins the guy has had in a year. He's the guy who wrestles bigger names than him and you are 100 percent positive he will lose. He makes money and that's good for him. As a fan he's basically a joke as an "upper tier" guy. I see him more as a Chris Jericho. A solid hand who is extremely over, and can work a passable match/feud with almost anyone, and someone who isn't especially hurt by multiple losses. People definitely buy CM Punk as a lower upper tier guy at the very least, as an RVD type figure who the fans respect for the in ring ability, who will always get great reactions live but will never really make huge money for the company on a wider scale. It certainly isn't seen as a 'joke' that he can hang with John Cena or Randy Orton or even The Rock. The only matches that looked a little ridiculous were the Lesnar and Taker bouts, and at Summerslam they kind of got around it by having Punk use a strategy to try and beat a guy he could never go toe to toe with on his own terms. If Rey Mysterio is credible against those guys then CM Punk is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 If Punk were viewed as a joke, the Rumble wouldn't have done the biggest non-Mania PPV number in 6 years. It would have been more like Survivor Series 2011 with Miz and R-Truth headlining. Punk carried the company on his back from 8/12-1/13 with the amount of segments he was featured in and mic time he was given. They don't waste Lesnar paydays on guys they don't see as being big-time guys, his only other opponents have been Cena, HHH, and likely Taker coming up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I'm not saying they don't see Punk as a big time guy. I'm saying I don't see him as a big time guy, nor does anyone I know, nor do I think he's really presented that way. The Jericho comparison is one I've made before and I think it is dead on accurate. Worth noting that the Rumble number is a number that could easily be read as disappointing depending on how you look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 There is something entertaining to see Cena break his tie for the record of WWE "world title" reigns with Trip, not 14 vs 13. On the other hand, it's sad to think of what a flop Orton has been for most of his career and he has 11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nell Santucci Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I'm not saying they don't see Punk as a big time guy. I'm saying I don't see him as a big time guy, nor does anyone I know, nor do I think he's really presented that way. The Jericho comparison is one I've made before and I think it is dead on accurate. Worth noting that the Rumble number is a number that could easily be read as disappointing depending on how you look at it. You're absolutely right. In fact, no one who has been pushed since the Cena Era who are on the current roster are seen as top guys except maybe Daniel Bryan, who HHH has cared to tell WWE for so long that he's a B+ Star that the audience feels like it got out of a Viet-Minh concentration camp. I yearn for new blood, and this isn't cutting it. The wrestling business changes drastically every few years, yet the same stars have been around now for almost 20. That's absurd ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exposer Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Anybody who tries to care about WWE storylines now is wasting their time. People say it's sad that Goldust is loved? Not really. He's a great worker. I like his offense. It's real sharp. He bumps really well. His transitions are good. He's excellent at selling. His punches are tremendous. That's good enough for me. If I want to worry about storylines or plot twist I'll read Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire or watch an upset in college football. Wrestling angles died about fifteen years ago. Go back to watching yearbooks and 80s wrestling with good storylines (but man those 80s matches have shitty finishes don't they?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 The love for Goldust is sad. Yes, he's a great worker when he wants to be, but we're talking about a guy who hasn't been near the main event since 1996, and he was never in the top 4 at at point in WWF's card placement. What that highlights is how badly the company needs new blood. Much of their top talent isn't ready, but if WWE pretended they were ready, we'd see vastly different results. I'd honestly be surprised without a major overhaul if WWE is around 20 years from now. A study of their demographics showcases just how long WWE has been in the early stages of cancer, and it's going to hit the company hard when guys like Undertaker, Rock, and Cena no longer can perform. Fuck, most of us would rather them push pre-heart attack (and even post maybe) Lawler over the entire roster. Or Finlay. Or Regal. We like old wrestlers who are amazing. We like watching old Wahoo and old Bock in the 80s and plenty of people on the board think the best wrestlers in the world right now are 50+ lucha guys. I don't have WWE stock. I want to watch Dustin Rhodes get a ton of TV time and be awesome. They can screw everything else up but that and honestly? They'd STILL have a better batting average than at other various points of my life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nell Santucci Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 Anybody who tries to care about WWE storylines now is wasting their time. People say it's sad that Goldust is loved? Not really. He's a great worker. I like his offense. It's real sharp. He bumps really well. His transitions are good. He's excellent at selling. His punches are tremendous. That's good enough for me. You're misunderstanding. The guy is also nearly 45 and that he's still active on its A-show in a significant capacity shows the company's failings in developing talent and successful pushes since the time Goldust was headlining. I think he's a great worker too, but a healthy company (i.e. not modern WWE) would have him go on the road with a developing talent working matches every night and also training the young lions in developmental. But developmental has never been Vince's concern, even after all other promotions (international and in North America) have exhausted themselves. That failing is part of the reason why, even if booking were decent, the company is so bland. As such, they keep on reverting by bringing back old nostalgia acts since there are so few on the roster now who can fill that void. That's a bad sign. Few wrestlers at the age of 45 should be out-performing guys at 28. But demographics is destiny, and the titanic WWE is going to eventually hit a glacier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nell Santucci Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 The love for Goldust is sad. Yes, he's a great worker when he wants to be, but we're talking about a guy who hasn't been near the main event since 1996, and he was never in the top 4 at at point in WWF's card placement. What that highlights is how badly the company needs new blood. Much of their top talent isn't ready, but if WWE pretended they were ready, we'd see vastly different results. I'd honestly be surprised without a major overhaul if WWE is around 20 years from now. A study of their demographics showcases just how long WWE has been in the early stages of cancer, and it's going to hit the company hard when guys like Undertaker, Rock, and Cena no longer can perform. Fuck, most of us would rather them push pre-heart attack (and even post maybe) Lawler over the entire roster. Or Finlay. Or Regal. We like old wrestlers who are amazing. We like watching old Wahoo and old Bock in the 80s and plenty of people on the board think the best wrestlers in the world right now are 50+ lucha guys. I don't have WWE stock. I want to watch Dustin Rhodes get a ton of TV time and be awesome. They can screw everything else up but that and honestly? They'd STILL have a better batting average than at other various points of my life. Exactly my point. They've been fucking up the talent pool since the late-90's with no suitable replacement. I'll take Goldust over almost all acts WWE pushes now, but it's still sad. It's a gross institutional failing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 I think a lot of that is us not them. I'm not sure there are five wrestlers in the world that I'd rather see over Goldust. Wrestling is a craft. So long as you're not totally unable to physically function, being older often just means you're better at understanding it. I think there were rarely promotions in all of wrestling history where on average the 28 year olds were better than the 38 year olds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 I went to Raw tonight and it was interesting how more over Punk and Bryan are than Cena on his first Raw back. Cena got a pop but Bryan was getting chants even before the doors opened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 Holy sheet the last few pages of this thread just scream that most of you will never like modern WWE, never like modern wrestling, and should stick to old tapes. The amount of angst in some of your posts is painful. Some of the complaints in this thread literally hurt my brain. It's 2013. I get some of it, but maybe modern WWE just isn't for you? And I hate that "if you don't like it don't watch it" trope when it comes to modern wrestling, I hate to go there, but I've been more annoyed by some of the posts I've read on current WWE lately than I have in a while. Yeah, it's not the best thing you've ever seen. It's also not the worst. There's also some really good shit in there. And yeah they make mistakes. Sorry Daniel Bryan hasn't been put over like Thor yet. Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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