Wrestlemania IV title picture

[MikeCampbell]

The Boston Garden and Spectrum shows from 2/6/88 both feature DiBiase with the title, and announced as the new WWF Champion.

[JerryvonKramer]

The idea that Vince decided to yank the belt off DiBiase because he wasn't drawing during the "shadow" run is faintly ridiculous.

 

Bill Watts always says in interviews something like "JYD would draw you the gate, Ted would give you the match". Vince surely knew that. He wasn't buying Ted to draw a gate, he was getting him for his performance -- both as the character he'd planned and in the ring.

 

I don't think Ted would have been champ all the way till Wrestlemania V, I can't see that. It's not impossible though -- as I said, Vince was trying new stuff -- and he'll have remembered Billy Graham's run. But the main problem with that is that you need Hogan or Savage chasing him for all of that time. It's not going to be Ted drawing the numbers, he wasn't a super-charismatic heel like Graham, it's going to be his opponent. A year is a long time to keep that candle burning.

 

I can see it through to Summerslam, but through Survivor Series and into February 89 Main Event? There would have needed to be a "filler" challenger or two. Who else faces Ted?

 

Duggan? In a main event angle?

Jake?

Warrior?

 

That's the problem I see with this. In the way things played out with the Mega Powers, the "filler" angle through the fall was vs. The Twin Towers. I don't know if they had enough goods on the babyface side to do that with Ted as champ (or with any heel as champ).

[slabinski611]

']

All they did was switch from DiBiase holding the title while Hogan was out to Savage holding the title.

 

Week-to-week, real time reporting corroborates all of this.

 

And of course, the Savage thing was the best long-term storyline in the history of the promotion and did monster business, to a point where even with the huge success of Wrestlemania V, they probably still had another few months of juice in the angle. So it worked out better in the end.

 

What am I missing?

Loss- I think you and a lot more members of this board have a ton more wrestling knowledge than I do but I still have to debate a few things.

 

If it was so matter of fact that they switched from Dibiase to Savage because of Vince being worried about Savage shooting on HTM and just wanting a heel to play placeholder for Hogan until WM5 then how do you explain the 10/87 SNME. That episode was filmed in 9/87 which would suggest there were plans for Hogan/Savage from that point. I don't doubt at all that they promised Dibiase the belt or that HTM refused to job to Savage. It just doesn't seem right that there weren't plans for Hogan/Savage after the SNME from October.

 

I also think Savage was above the IC title by Feb 88. If Dibiase goes over at WM, is Savage the one chasing him through the year with Hogan away ? That would tie up your IC champion in the World title picture and take away your top secondary program. Also, any thoughts on Dibiase going over at WM and dropping it to Savage at Summerslam while having Hogan/Andre in a cage like the wrestlefest card from 7/88. That way Hogan still celebrates with Savage winning the title and they still have the Megapowers angle.

[Dooley]

If Ted won the belt, Hogan wasn't getting it back until SummerSlam. On the flip side, it's hard to imagine them holding off beyond that: Survivor was still tag based, Rumble didn't exist as a PPV yet, and Mania was a hell of a long ways off.

I would think the logical plan would be to keep the belt on DiBiase until WM5 where Hogan takes it back. You have Savage chase DiBiase through the summer, re-introduce Hogan (in-ring) at Survivor Series, he wins the Rumble than takes back the belt. It's easy to forget how slow WWF booking moved back then.

 

That wasn't going to happen. Vince didn't blowoff world title feuds in that area. He saw Wrestlemania as the Superbowl of wrestling. There is more evidence for my claim. The first world title change happened in 1997's SummerSlam, i.e. only when competition forced Vince to change strategy. Again, SummerSlam tended to be for Intercontinental title changes. My post on this page covers this. There is no chance in Hell Vince was going to change a world title at SummerSlam in fucking 1988. If DiBiase wins, he holds it until Wrestlemania V. But he was not drawing in his shadow title run. In math, this is a proof by contradiction, or at least being reasonable doubt in the space of humans.

 

While I agree that DiBiase would have held until Mania, the problem with your reasoning is that you're relying on a formula that hadn't been established yet. You keep talking about what SummerSlam patterns were, but there hadn't been a Summerslam yet. Historical patterns only work in a past context, not a future one.

 

As far as DiBiase's "shadow" reign (I dislike that term), it's hard to blame him for 2 weeks of houses where tickets were sold not knowing he was going to be announced as champion.

 

If it was so matter of fact that they switched from Dibiase to Savage because of Vince being worried about Savage shooting on HTM and just wanting a heel to play placeholder for Hogan until WM5 then how do you explain the 10/87 SNME. That episode was filmed in 9/87 which would suggest there were plans for Hogan/Savage from that point. I don't doubt at all that they promised Dibiase the belt or that HTM refused to job to Savage. It just doesn't seem right that there weren't plans for Hogan/Savage after the SNME from October.

SNME established Savage as a Hogan ally and a guy that can carry the babyface side in Hogan's absence. Nothing more.

[Loss]

']

All they did was switch from DiBiase holding the title while Hogan was out to Savage holding the title.

 

Week-to-week, real time reporting corroborates all of this.

 

And of course, the Savage thing was the best long-term storyline in the history of the promotion and did monster business, to a point where even with the huge success of Wrestlemania V, they probably still had another few months of juice in the angle. So it worked out better in the end.

 

What am I missing?

Loss- I think you and a lot more members of this board have a ton more wrestling knowledge than I do but I still have to debate a few things.

 

If it was so matter of fact that they switched from Dibiase to Savage because of Vince being worried about Savage shooting on HTM and just wanting a heel to play placeholder for Hogan until WM5 then how do you explain the 10/87 SNME. That episode was filmed in 9/87 which would suggest there were plans for Hogan/Savage from that point. I don't doubt at all that they promised Dibiase the belt or that HTM refused to job to Savage. It just doesn't seem right that there weren't plans for Hogan/Savage after the SNME from October.

Because after that SNME, they never were together again until Wrestlemania, were they? Was it really played up as a big thing between October 1987 and February 1988?

 

I also think Savage was above the IC title by Feb 88.

As do I. But that is still where he was being booked.

 

If Dibiase goes over at WM, is Savage the one chasing him through the year with Hogan away ? That would tie up your IC champion in the World title picture and take away your top secondary program. Also, any thoughts on Dibiase going over at WM and dropping it to Savage at Summerslam while having Hogan/Andre in a cage like the wrestlefest card from 7/88. That way Hogan still celebrates with Savage winning the title and they still have the Megapowers angle.

It's possible Savage wins the title from HTM and has a very short run with it before dropping it to someone else. I think Savage would have just been a placeholder challenger until Hogan got back to reclaim the gold. They ended up building up Savage as Hogan's equal (well, as close as anyone else could be to Hogan's equal), but I think that's because they were surprised that Savage got over on top as well as he did. Not that they were down on him in any way, but more that Hogan was so head and shoulders above everyone else that the idea of someone else drawing well probably genuinely surprised them.

[El Boricua]

Dooley and Loss are right that too much is made out of Hogan and Savage forming an alliance at the October 87 SNME. At that point, Savage had not yet fully turned face. The Hogan save and subsequent handshake was just to cement Savage's face turn. After that they really only had the following interaction until the March 88 SNME:

 

WWF @ Vancouver, British Columbia - PNE Coliseum - November 10, 1987

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, & Jim Duggan defeated King Kong Bundy, Rick Rude, & King Harley Race

 

WWF @ Huntsville, AL - Von Braun Civic Center - January 5, 1988 (8,500)

WWF Superstars taping:

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan & Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) defeated WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man, Bret Hart, & Jim Neidhart (w/ Jimmy Hart) in a handicap match when Hogan pinned Honky with the legdrop

 

WWF @ Montrael, Quebec - Forum - February 8, 1988

Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, & Ricky Steamboat defeated WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man, Bret Hart, & Jim Neidhart (w/ Andre the Giant)

 

Basically it's only one random house show six man tag main event (Hogan and two top faces against the Heenan family), a TV taping dark match that plays off the October 87 SNME three months after it happened, and virtually a repeat of the January match a month later at a house show main event that adds Steamboat and Andre to the mix (I'm bummed that there is no video off this one). During that time, Hogan had a more consistent and acknowledged partnership with Bam Bam Bigelow than Randy Savage.

 

On the March 88 SNME is when they cross paths again on TV, with Hogan coming to Savage's aid again against Andre, DiBiase and Virgil. It's only due to hindsight (and the way the WWF highlights moments when looking back) that that handshake in October gets played up more as the birth of the Mega Powers, when at the time it was just a way to cement Savage's face turn and nothing more.

[JerryvonKramer]

While I do agree with that El Boricua, I think the reaction to Savage that night (October SNME) will have started the wheels turning in Vince's head for a possible Hogan vs. Savage main event down the line. We've talked about Vince getting money hard-ons, that night is an example you can point to.

 

The process by which Vince changed is mind on what to do is probably more gradual than a single moment. The point I've been trying to make in this thread is that Vince sort of allowed himself to be pushed into switching by HTM. Does anyone think that HTM had the sort of pull to get Vince to actually change his mind if he didn't want to?

[Bix]

Wasn't Vince's "the Mania meets the Madness!" call on the 10/87 SNME? It seemed like they were setting it up as something huge.

[Loss]

Jiz, what exactly was Dibiase's shadow run? The shows when he actually possessed the belt? I didn't think that was more than a handful of shows. Or, Jiz, are you talking Feb 6 thru WrestleMania?

This refers to the period between Andre handing the belt to DiBiase and Jack Tunney stripping him of it. DiBiase was WWF champion on house shows in the interim.

[marrklarr]

The point I've been trying to make in this thread is that Vince sort of allowed himself to be pushed into switching by HTM. Does anyone think that HTM had the sort of pull to get Vince to actually change his mind if he didn't want to?

Here's a wild conspiracy theory: maybe Vince instructed HTM to refuse to drop the IC belt, so that he would be "forced" to placate Macho with a title win at WMIV, providing him with a handy excuse for backing out on his promise (and already sketched out plans) to put the title on DiBiase. This way he could get the Savage title run that, by then, he wanted without disrespecting Ted and making him resentful.

 

It would explain why Honky was never disciplined. And it would explain why the Savage title run seems so perfect and well-conceived for something that was supposedly a slapdash, last-minute rewrite in the weeks before Mania.

[El Boricua]

While I do agree with that El Boricua, I think the reaction to Savage that night (October SNME) will have started the wheels turning in Vince's head for a possible Hogan vs. Savage main event down the line. We've talked about Vince getting money hard-ons, that night is an example you can point to.

 

The process by which Vince changed is mind on what to do is probably more gradual than a single moment. The point I've been trying to make in this thread is that Vince sort of allowed himself to be pushed into switching by HTM. Does anyone think that HTM had the sort of pull to get Vince to actually change his mind if he didn't want to?

I won't say it's not a possibility, but I'm not convinced that the reaction to Savage at the 10/87 SNME is what started the wheels turning in Vince's head for a possible Hogan vs. Savage main event down the line. Hogan vs. Savage had already been considered previously as a possible WrestleMania 2 main event. Just a month or so before, when Honky won the I-C title, Savage congratulated Honky and stated that he intended to go after Hogan and the WWF title. If anything, DiBiase coming in and Steamboat falling into the doghouse may have delayed Hogan and Savage matching up.

 

I do agree that the weirdest part of the whole sequence is the apparent lack of punishment for Honky for refusing to drop the IC title to Savage. If it apparently was thought that DiBiase was a weak draw and Savage was not the initial plan (and may have been seen as an unproven as draw at that point), it's possible that Vince kept Honky with the belt because he was a 'proven' draw and may have helped the gates with Hogan out.

 

 

Wasn't Vince's "the Mania meets the Madness!" call on the 10/87 SNME? It seemed like they were setting it up as something huge.

Yes, you're right that the call was made there. It was set up as something huge, but having watched it again, the huge moment (at least in my view, the moment can be interpreted differently by others) is Savage extending his hand to a man he had had a rivalry with since arriving to the WWF and Hogan accepting. I don't see it as them forming an alliance, I see it sold as the Mania and the Madness are face to face, there is a show of gratitude by the now face Savage and eventual acceptance by Hogan of the gesture (the call is uttered just before Hogan starts to extend his hand to shake Savage's offered hand). Just one month before Savage was ready to go after Hogan and the title, so it's a bit surprising for this development (Savage offering thanks to Hogan) to occur.

 

 

One thing that I wonder is if the decision to go with Savage had already been made when they had the Savage/DiBiase match at the 03/88 SNME. I can't quite figure the reasoning for running the eventual finals on free TV two weeks before WrestleMania 4. Would that have been the originally planned finish for the tournament if they had gone with DiBiase? Again, I remember that the winner of the tournament would get the title, but there was no mention it had to be by pinfall or submission.

 

Was it to set-up Hogan's eventual involvement by having him save Savage here? It had been six months since Hogan had saved Savage at the 10/87 SNME, and they had not interacted since then. It could have been done to not have it seem so out of left field that Hogan would get involved at WrestleMania 4, but it just seems to me that it's a bit unnecessary to do that. Just with having DiBiase and Andre involved in the finals would make it plausible enough for Hogan to get involved and help Savage. It also makes three times that Hogan saves Savage without Savage returning the favor to Hogan. That may make him look a bit weak that he needs this constant saving/help/bailing out (even if it's against larger numbers). If anything, Hogan saving Savage at the 03/88 SNME would seem to be a more logical set-up to explain (hypothetically) why Savage would come to Hogan's aid at WrestleMania 4 and return the favor. It would also have set-up Savage's involvement with DiBiase if he was to be the challenger while Hogan was out. Or maybe the Savage/DiBiase match was just to create fear that DiBiase may be winning in the same manner at WrestleMania 4 and have Hogan prevent that. Who knows?

 

Three other points before I stop rambling:

 

I don't quite believe that DiBiase's 'shadow run' is what torpedoed his promised reign. From the Main Event to Tunney's announcement there were only 7 days in between. It seems surprising to blame DiBiase for being a poor draw when it is such short notice to advertise him as the 'champ' and such a short window of time to allow for ticket sales. It's likely that most of the tickets to these shows had already been sold before the Main Event occurred. The shows after the Boston Garden and Spectrum shows on the 6th may be down simply because Hogan may not have been advertised as being on those cards when tickets were first put on sale.

 

The heel had won the main event of Survivor Series, but they had Hogan run Andre off and pose for the crowd. I suspect that they may have done something similar if DiBiase had won at WrestleMania 4, with Hogan and Savage running DiBiase off.

 

I have a suspicion that the planned main event of SummerSlam at some point may have been Hogan vs. DiBiase. It's the first time running a PPV in the summer and they may have felt it necessary to have a strong main event to ensure the PPV's success. The switch to Savage and his taking off as champ likely made those plans change.

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't know if it's true, but HTM claims they never really trusted him again after he refused to lose to Savage. After he put Warrior over, he slid pretty far down the card and he's always bitching that he's not a road agent and shit like that. Does he get any sort of legend kickback?

[slabinski611]

I don't know if it's true, but HTM claims they never really trusted him again after he refused to lose to Savage. After he put Warrior over, he slid pretty far down the card and he's always bitching that he's not a road agent and shit like that. Does he get any sort of legend kickback?

 

I completely buy that HTM was in the deepest darkest corner of the doghouse after refusing to job to Savage. The question I have is why wait to job him to Warrior at Summerslam. They just as easily could have given him the Bob Backlund/Wendi Richter treatment on a house show and if they wanted. It didn't have to be to Savage. It could have been to anyone. I love how in one of HTM shoot interviews he made it sound like wwf asked him how he wanted to drop the belt to Warrior and what did he think was the best way to go about it. Seriously, if HTM put up a fight about jobbing at Summerslam, I think we would have seen another phantom title switch.

[marrklarr]

The question I have is why wait to job him to Warrior at Summerslam.

I think the title change at Summerslam was pitch perfect for what they were trying to accomplish, i.e. launch Warrior into a main event-level star. The belt gave him credibility, and the squash win made him look very strong. The brief match also hid his deficiencies as a worker and allowed him to do what he did best -- make a big entrance, run around like a maniac, lift a man over his head.

 

I also really liked the element of surprise. The place popped like dynamite when his music hit. I'm not a Warrior fan, but I still mark out over that.

[ohtani's jacket]

Wasn't it supposed to be Beefcake who beat HTM? I guess they wanted someone to get the rub from defeating the longest running intercontinental champion of all time.

[Kevin Ridge]

The Boston Garden and Spectrum shows from 2/6/88 both feature DiBiase with the title, and announced as the new WWF Champion.

First off. You have a Khawk type gif in your signature that I could get lost in watching over and over. As far as DiBiase being WWF champion at this time I felt it was more him buying the belt off Andre from Saturday Night Main Event and not so much as him being champion going forward at WrestleMania. As mentioned by others, WWF almost always had a go home face winning final match on their PPVs. Andre won the Survivor Series tag match in 87 leading up to all this so I can't see them going with another heel walking out with title months later at WrestleMania. I think it wasn't until Royal Rumble 92 that a heel walked out as winner in final match on PPV. And not until WrestleMania 2000 that you had a heel win final match in a WrestleMania.

[jdw]

With Hogan taking time off again during the summer of '89 (although not as much as in '88), and with Randy Savage a hot heel, I do still think they should have had Savage go over in screwy fashion at WM5. I understand why they didn't, but I think they had something special that was blown off too soon.

Did Hogan by choice take much time off, or did he go out very briefly with an injury? He worked pretty regularly (weekendish schedule) around the horn with Savage after Mania, drawing a surprising amount of money despite the job by Savage at Mania.

 

Are we thinking about 1990 and the Earthquake thingy where he took time off again?

 

John

[Migs]

With Hogan taking time off again during the summer of '89 (although not as much as in '88), and with Randy Savage a hot heel, I do still think they should have had Savage go over in screwy fashion at WM5. I understand why they didn't, but I think they had something special that was blown off too soon.

Did Hogan by choice take much time off, or did he go out very briefly with an injury? He worked pretty regularly (weekendish schedule) around the horn with Savage after Mania, drawing a surprising amount of money despite the job by Savage at Mania.

 

Are we thinking about 1990 and the Earthquake thingy where he took time off again?

 

John

 

I believe Hogan was doing some movie filming (Suburban Commando?) but he did also have an injury (pectoral, I think) that kept him out for a bit. Beefcake had to sub for him in main events with Savage.

[jdw]

Suburban Commando was released in October 1991, so the filming would have lined up with this:

 

http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/90.htm

 

WWF @ LaCrosse, WI - LaCrosse Center - May 15, 1990

WWF Superstars taping:

WWF Superstars 5/26/90 - featured Hulk Hogan and Earthquake as guests of the Brother Love Show in which Earthquake attacked Hogan from behind with a chair and repeatedly hit the sit-down splash until Hogan was taken backstage on a stretcher (Hogan's last appearance for two months)

 

First appearance back:

 

WWF @ Omaha, NE - Civic Auditorium - July 16, 1990 (10,303; sell out)

Saturday Night's Main Event #27 "Wild Kingdom" - 7/28/90 on NBC (7.2) - featured McMahon conducting an in-ring interview with Hulk Hogan, who thanked the fans for their letters and cards of support while he was out of action following Earthquake's attack and promised to reply to each and every one; Hogan then discussed his match with Earthquake at Summer Slam; moments later, Earthquake, Dino Bravo, and Jimmy Hart appeared ringside and cornered Hogan until Tugboat made the save

 

He was actually out for almost another month before his first match back:

 

WWF @ Providence, RI - Civic Center - August 8, 1990 (15,000; sell out)

WWF Superstars taping:

Hulk Hogan (w/ the Big Bossman) pinned Dino Bravo (w/ Earthquake & Jimmy Hart) at 8:40; the match was advertised as Tugboat, with Hogan in his corner, against Earthquake, with Bravo in his corner (Mega Matches)

 

I'm thinking that's the Suburban Commando stuff.

[jdw]

Looking at the results, he didn't have a break in 1989 other than (i) when the company was off anyway after Mania, and (ii) the injury.

 

04/04/89 Glens Falls - Superstars taping (vs Bossman in cage)

04/05/89 Syracuse - Challenge taping (vs Bossman in cage)

 

The WWF then went on a Euro tour, which he was given off it appears. As soon as they were back:

 

04/22/89 Philadelphia - house show (vs Savage)

04/23/89 Toronto - house show (vs Savage)

04/24/89 MSG - house show (vs Savage)

04/25/89 Des Moines - Challenge/SNME taping (SNME match vs Bossman in cage)

04/26/89 Omaha - Superstars taping (vs Bossman in cage)

04/29/89 Detroit - house show (vs Savage)

04/29/89 Richfield - house show (vs Savage)

 

05/12/89 Los Angeles - house show (vs Savage)

05/13/89 San Francisco - house show (vs Savage)

05/14/89 Sacramento - house show (vs Savage)

05/19/89 Chicago - house show (vs Savage)

05/20/89 Philadelphia - house show (vs Savage)

05/21/89 Toronto - house show (vs Savage)

05/27/89 Calgary - house show (vs Savage)

05/28/89 Edmonton - house show (vs Savage)

05/29/89 Montreal - house show (vs Savage)

 

06/03/89 Boston - house show (vs Savage)

06/04/89 Portland, ME - house show (vs Savage)

06/05/89 Cedar Rapids - house show (vs Savage)

06/09/89 Dallas - house show (vs Savage)

06/10/89 Houston - house show (vs Savage)

06/11/89 San Antonio - house show (vs Savage)

06/16/89 Los Angeles - house show (vs Savage)

06/17/89 Oakland - house show (vs Savage)

06/18/89 Sacramento - house show (vs Savage)

06/19/89 Phoenix - house show (vs Savage)

06/22/89 Hartford - house show (vs Savage)

06/23/89 St. Paul - house show (vs Savage)

06/24/89 Auburn Hills - house show (vs Savage)

06/25/89 Richfield - house show (vs Savage)

 

07/06/89 Boise - house show (vs Savage)

07/07/89 Spokane - house show (vs Savage)

07/08/89 Edmonton - house show (vs Savage)

07/14/89 Baltimore - house show (vs Savage)

07/15/89 Birmingham - house show (vs Savage?)

07/16/89 Houston - house show (vs Savage)

07/18/89 Worcester - Superstars / SNME taping (SNME match vs HTM)

 

07/21/89 Indianapolis - house show (Beefcake sub vs Savage)

07/22/89 St. Louis - house show (Beefcake sub vs Savage)

07/23/89 Grand Rapids - house show (Beefcake sub vs Savage)

07/28/89 Nashville - house show (Beefcake sub vs Savage)

07/30/89 Milwaukee - house show (Beefcake sub vs Savage)

 

And he returns the following week:

 

08/04/89 Memphis - house show (vs Savage - "Hogan's return match after suffering a pinched nerve")

08/05/89 Salt Lake City - house show (vs Savage)

08/08/89 Oakland - Superstars taping (vs Savage)

08/08/89 Fresno - Challenge taping (vs Savage)

08/18/89 Wheeling - house show (vs Savage)

08/19/89 Philadelphia - house show (vs Savage)

08/21/89 Binghamton - house show (vs Savage)

08/26/89 Richmond - house show (vs Savage)

08/27/89 Providence - house show (vs Savage)

08/28/89 East Rutherford - SummerSlam (vs Savage & Zeus)

08/29/89 Springfield - Challenge taping (vs Savage)

08/30/89 Portland - Superstars taping (vs Savage)

 

9/8, 9/9, 9/10, 9/11, 9/15, 9/16, 9/17, 9/20, 9/21, 9/22, 9/23, 9/24, 9/29, 9/30

 

Same thing in October, with Hogan-Savage finally ending 10/13 in Paris (match was taped and out there on CHV releases), and the Bad News series starting at Nassau Coliseum on 10/20.

 

Like mentioned above, Hogan-Savage drew a ton of people, especially relative to the rest of the WWF. It's always stuck with me because everyone thought it would bomb after Mania since the Chase was over. Instead... people wanted to see him kick Savage's ass some more, with multiple shows in most cities. Hogan working weekends let them stretch it out all the way to 10/13, which in this day and age would be mind numbing: 4/2 Mania to 10/20, setting aside the Zeus cage match in December. That's seven PPV cycles in 2013:

 

April - WrestleMania

May - Extreme Rules

June - Payback

July - Money in the Bank

August - Summer Slam

September - Night of Champions

October - Battleground or Hell in a Cell

 

Wow. You just can't keep running a feud like that anymore.

[cm funk]

My biggest question is when was No Holds Barred greenlit? In January 88 Meltzer mentions the filming schedule isn't finalized yet, and speculates that Hogan would remain champion past WM if he could work weekends and tapings. Then in February he mentions that filming begins in April, so they knew at that point that Hogan would be out of the picture. I assume NHB had to be greenlit at some point back in 87, and in development for some time before that.

 

My thought is that if you can pinpoint when the movie was greenlit and announced that's probably where you find the genesis of the angle with Hogan-Andre-DiBiase and the tournament at WMIV. It's a hot angle going into the big show of the year, and you guarantee a Hogan-Andre match in the first round as the main event. Then once you know Hogan's status you can either a) put the belt back on him and you're right back where you want to be, or b ) try to create new stars to carry the ball while Hogan is out, and get the belt off of him without ever really beating him. It's just clever booking that gave them two options depending on NHB

 

I'd also speculate that turning Savage and having him be endorsed by Hogan in fall of 87 was their way of setting him up as the contingency plan top face if Hogan had to be off the road. What I'm a little unsure of is if there was ever serious consideration for DiBiase to carry the belt. My gut says no, because it goes against everything Vince and Vince Sr. had ever done. Also, the heels won the main event of Survivor Series 87, and the heels screwed Hogan out of the belt on Main Event. Would they have ended 3 big shows in a row with the heels coming out on top? I have a very hard time believing that. My feeling is Savage was the backup plan all along, with the screwjob angle a way to establish DiBiase with a short, disputed reign, and setup his comeuppance at WM. The brackets are originally set up for Hogan, when they learn he'll be gone they are setup for Savage.

 

I'd also be interested to know when exactly SummerSlam was conceived. I have to think it was already in the plans before WM and was setup to coincide with Hogan's return, and possibly to have a big PPV event where he could get the title back. It's possible that Savage would have transitioned the belt to DiBiase in the summer, giving him an actual run, and Hogan comes back to reclaim the title at SummerSlam. Then you eventually get the same turn angle from Savage and title match at WMV with Hogan defending. But Savage surprises them how well he does as champion, and they decide to keep the belt on him for a year, giving them two strong house show draws.

 

The one thing that throws a monkey wrench in all this is the Honky Tonk story. I've just never bought that he had the kind of pull to get away with that, much less directly impact long term world title plans, much less hold the belt all the way til SummerSlam without repurcussion. And why would he have no problem getting squashed by Warrior in August? That's always been hard for me to swallow.

[cm funk]

Also, someone mentioned Vince trying new things in this timeframe and DiBiase being the start of him "creating characters" as possible support for him getting the belt, but I don't really see that. Yes, he did do a few things outside of the usual playbook (heels go over in Survivor Series main, belt off Hogan at all) but I don't see DiBiase as a landmark when it came to Vince creating characters.

 

Off the top of my head prior to The Million Dollar Man:

 

Honky Tonk Man

George "The Animal" Steele

Jake "The Snake" Roberts

"Adorable" Adrian Adonis

Hercules

Hillbilly Jim & Cousin Luke

"Birdman" Koko B. Ware

Demolition

 

Among others. Million Dollar Man was pretty elaborate, but he was still "The Million Dollar Man" Ted DiBiase. When Perfect came in he was "Mr. Perfect" Curt Henning. It wasn't until later that they'd drop the names and just go with the nickname, or they'd bring in guys well known elsewhere completely as characters

[JerryvonKramer]

My point is that most of those cases are when a guy is acquired by Vince and then he thinks "hmmm, what shall I do with him?" Take Honkytonk Man, he brings in a guy from Memphis and then thinks of making him an Elvis character. There's not a million miles away from sticking a cowboy hat on Dory and calling him "Hoss Funk".

 

With MDM, Vince came up with the character first, then cast Ted. He didn't sign Ted and then think "Hmmm what shall I do with this guy". He came up with the concept and then thought "hmmm, who would be good for this role?"

 

The difference is marked. Read my post again and you'll see me pointing to that as being the key differentiator. Let me spell it out explicitly to make sure there's no doubt at all about what I'm saying:

 

1. Worker --> repackaging

2. Concept --> worker hired to play role

 

If you want to argue that Hercules Hernandez existed as a concept before Herc was hired, I'd like to see that argument.

[cm funk]

That's a fair distinction.

 

How many other guys did he hire after already coming up with the concept for a character? Probably hard to nail that down, but I doubt MDM was the only one. The MDM story has been well covered over the years, but with lots of characters the chicken/egg argument won't be so clear.

[JerryvonKramer]

It's hard to say but most of the examples you picked out were either guys who had a pre-existing schtick or it was like "Here Koko, carry this bird to the ring".

 

I don't know which other characters had pre-existing concepts but it seems like Mr. Perfect might be one -- I don't know about that though, just a guess.

 

Undertaker?

Nailz?

Doink?

IRS?

Skinner?

Duke the Dumpster?

Adam Bomb?

 

Those are the sorts of gimmicks I'd look at. Like you say, the MDM story is very well diseminated.