WingedEagle Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Lawler wrestles like any other nickel-and-dime Southern heel and panders for cheap heat too much instead of presenting himself as a tough guy. On his promos, he buries his opponents instead of selling the match as something people should care about, take seriously and want to see. The routine of hiding a foreign object in the tights is fine as an act, but is beneath someone pushed as the top guy of the promotion. He should stay off the house mic during his matches too. I love Lawler as a babyface, although even there, there are problems because it's rare that you see some great wrestling moves or that he takes the match to the mat. Punch, punch, punch, punch, punch ... as good as they are and as many variations as he has, it can get monotonous. There are exceptions to that, and someone could respond and name matches, but they are pointing out an exception, not something Lawler did routinely. He's a great brawler. He has taken some huge bumps, but he's not a guy who takes big bumps in regular matches. I don't mean something crazy or exceptional like the Jos Le Duc bump ... I mean regular bumping in the confines of a traditional wrestling match where he feeds a babyface offense. He's a guy who I've liked less the more I've seen of him, although in terms of presenting himself as a top guy outside the ring, he's nearly peerless. But a GOAT contender shouldn't be such a schtick guy, and should be someone who works smart *and* hard. Lawler tends to do the former and not the latter. Not nearly enough steak with the sizzle. Wow. For ages I just couldn't understand what I was missing on Lawler as he's someone who's highs I love but are much fewer and further apart for me than for many other top guys, and someone who is absolutely revered by numerous people who's opinions I strongly respect. You just managed to some it up perfectly for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 I love that this thread has become an exercise in Maoist self-criticism. Let's get some thoughts on the flaws of Lawler and Fujiwara. Why don't you quit whining and do it yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Lawler wrestles like any other nickel-and-dime Southern heel and panders for cheap heat too much instead of presenting himself as a tough guy. On his promos, he buries his opponents instead of selling the match as something people should care about, take seriously and want to see. The routine of hiding a foreign object in the tights is fine as an act, but is beneath someone pushed as the top guy of the promotion. He should stay off the house mic during his matches too. I love Lawler as a babyface, although even there, there are problems because it's rare that you see some great wrestling moves or that he takes the match to the mat. Punch, punch, punch, punch, punch ... as good as they are and as many variations as he has, it can get monotonous. There are exceptions to that, and someone could respond and name matches, but they are pointing out an exception, not something Lawler did routinely. He's a great brawler. He has taken some huge bumps, but he's not a guy who takes big bumps in regular matches. I don't mean something crazy or exceptional like the Jos Le Duc bump ... I mean regular bumping in the confines of a traditional wrestling match where he feeds a babyface offense. He's a guy who I've liked less the more I've seen of him, although in terms of presenting himself as a top guy outside the ring, he's nearly peerless. But a GOAT contender shouldn't be such a schtick guy, and should be someone who works smart *and* hard. Lawler tends to do the former and not the latter. Not nearly enough steak with the sizzle. I'll have a line by line rebuttal forthcoming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Lawler wrestles like any other nickel-and-dime Southern heel and panders for cheap heat too much instead of presenting himself as a tough guy. On his promos, he buries his opponents instead of selling the match as something people should care about, take seriously and want to see. The routine of hiding a foreign object in the tights is fine as an act, but is beneath someone pushed as the top guy of the promotion. He should stay off the house mic during his matches too. I love Lawler as a babyface, although even there, there are problems because it's rare that you see some great wrestling moves or that he takes the match to the mat. Punch, punch, punch, punch, punch ... as good as they are and as many variations as he has, it can get monotonous. There are exceptions to that, and someone could respond and name matches, but they are pointing out an exception, not something Lawler did routinely. He's a great brawler. He has taken some huge bumps, but he's not a guy who takes big bumps in regular matches. I don't mean something crazy or exceptional like the Jos Le Duc bump ... I mean regular bumping in the confines of a traditional wrestling match where he feeds a babyface offense. He's a guy who I've liked less the more I've seen of him, although in terms of presenting himself as a top guy outside the ring, he's nearly peerless. But a GOAT contender shouldn't be such a schtick guy, and should be someone who works smart *and* hard. Lawler tends to do the former and not the latter. Not nearly enough steak with the sizzle. I'll have a line by line rebuttal forthcoming. Looking forward to that too. Every time I read people who love Lawler, they make tangible, well reasoned points for why they regard him so well. I may not see all of it when I watch the matches myself, but I can appreciate that there are specific things working for them there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 I love that this thread has become an exercise in Maoist self-criticism. Let's get some thoughts on the flaws of Lawler and Fujiwara. Why don't you quit whining and do it yourself. Setting aside the fact that there was nothing even remotely whiny about my post, I was hoping someone like you or Phil would do it to keep with the spirit of OJ outlining Satanico's flaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Looking forward to that too. Every time I read people who love Lawler, they make tangible, well reasoned points for why they regard him so well. I may not see all of it when I watch the matches myself, but I can appreciate that there are specific things working for them there. And that is what makes this forum so wonderful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 I love Lawler but pretty much agree with all of Loss' criticisms of him as a heel. He relies on the foreign object stuff WAY too much as a heel, to the point of killing the whole gimmick by hitting the guy with it so many times it doesn't feel like a threat any more. He doesn't fit the idea of "good not great wrestlers" though and my pick for that would be Chris Jericho. I think people hyped him for so long as a great wrestler, but he's not. He's just good. People seem to have come down off that "Chris Jericho is one of the best in the world!!" ledge they were on in the early 2000s though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 I love that this thread has become an exercise in Maoist self-criticism. Let's get some thoughts on the flaws of Lawler and Fujiwara. Why don't you quit whining and do it yourself. Setting aside the fact that there was nothing even remotely whiny about my post, I was hoping someone like you or Phil would do it to keep with the spirit of OJ outlining Satanico's flaws. I see no flaws in Lawler except that there isn't enough footage from the 70s available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 I love Lawler but pretty much agree with all of Loss' criticisms of him as a heel. He relies on the foreign object stuff WAY too much as a heel, to the point of killing the whole gimmick by hitting the guy with it so many times it doesn't feel like a threat any more. That particular criticism all hinges on a 5 month period in early 1990.... out of a 40 year career. Also, in Memphis, the chain in the pants isn't the same as a roll of quarters or brass knux or a slapjack. The point is to punish, not knock out. The chain is a momentum turner, not a game ender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 I would also like to add that for everyone who is considering the purchase of the Lawler set, ignore Loss's criticisms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 I didn't randomly select Lawler. Nintendo Logic wanted someone to criticize him. So I did it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Also, El-P, Lawler's no-sell comebacks don't bother me and aren't something I consider a weakness at all. In fact, those fired up comebacks are one of the best parts of his act. I believe in the concept of the adrenaline rush in a wrestling setting. Lawlering up typically isn't like Hoganing up where he takes the other guy's best move and shrugs it off because Jesus-and-America or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Despite my criticisms of Lawler, I've already done my taxes and plan to buy the Lawler set as soon as the direct deposit hits. I just think he's a much better babyface than a heel, but that's also a bit unfair because I also think he's maybe the best babyface ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Also, if you really think anyone isn't going to pick up a set because some dude on a message board raised what he thought were some fair criticisms, then you must really think you've got a lot of spineless jellyfish who can't think for themselves on this board. (1) You can criticize something and still really like it. (2) No one is sacred and above criticism. (3) If I see the debates over a guy, I'm more likely to pick up the matches myself and see where I stand. I would assume most are the same way. Saying that my criticisms should be "ignored" comes across as an attempt to stifle debate, and I think you're better than that. I encourage people to check out the footage for themselves and if they think I'm wrong, tell me so. Let's make things interesting, and let's let his case be proven instead of just passed down from a mountain top. That's what we're all about here. Jerry Lawler does rule, but he's also flawed, just like every wrestler ever. To point out those flaws isn't to say people should run the other way, cover their ears and sing "la la la, I can't hear you". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted January 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 I really like the direction this has gone, even if I had no idea it would. I would agree that Koji complaints have been done and are overdone, but that wasn't truly my point. I still love watching him wrestle, at least for a short time before I start seeing too much of the things I dislike. So I adapt and watch 2 or 3 matches then switch it up. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate his skill and efforts as a worker. That's what I'm seeing from a lot of the other things that have come up. People are willing to see the flaws in workers you can tell they love. I saw Jericho mentioned and totally agree. He seemed to me like a guy who was great at his schtick and could go in-ring, but lacked something s far as putting great matches together unless he was up against a Benoit or someone of that caliber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 (3) If I see the debates over a guy, I'm more likely to pick up the matches myself and see where I stand. I would assume most are the same way. This is exactly why I'm going through the Lawler set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Also, El-P, Lawler's no-sell comebacks don't bother me and aren't something I consider a weakness at all. In fact, those fired up comebacks are one of the best parts of his act. I believe in the concept of the adrenaline rush in a wrestling setting. Lawlering up typically isn't like Hoganing up where he takes the other guy's best move and shrugs it off because Jesus-and-America or whatever. I already talked about this in lenght in the past and don't intend to do it again. They do bother me. But anyway, this is neither here nor there since as I said it Lawer is better than good to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Also, if you really think anyone isn't going to pick up a set because some dude on a message board raised what he thought were some fair criticisms, then you must really think you've got a lot of spineless jellyfish who can't think for themselves on this board. (1) You can criticize something and still really like it. (2) No one is sacred and above criticism. (3) If I see the debates over a guy, I'm more likely to pick up the matches myself and see where I stand. I would assume most are the same way. Saying that my criticisms should be "ignored" comes across as an attempt to stifle debate, and I think you're better than that. I encourage people to check out the footage for themselves and if they think I'm wrong, tell me so. Let's make things interesting, and let's let his case be proven instead of just passed down from a mountain top. That's what we're all about here. Jerry Lawler does rule, but he's also flawed, just like every wrestler ever. To point out those flaws isn't to say people should run the other way, cover their ears and sing "la la la, I can't hear you". I'm pretty sure his comments about how your criticisms should be ignored were tongue-in-cheek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 I might try to come up with some criticisms of DiBiase who I consider to be "great". I might also try Arn and Flair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Also, if you really think anyone isn't going to pick up a set because some dude on a message board raised what he thought were some fair criticisms, then you must really think you've got a lot of spineless jellyfish who can't think for themselves on this board. (1) You can criticize something and still really like it. (2) No one is sacred and above criticism. (3) If I see the debates over a guy, I'm more likely to pick up the matches myself and see where I stand. I would assume most are the same way. Saying that my criticisms should be "ignored" comes across as an attempt to stifle debate, and I think you're better than that. I encourage people to check out the footage for themselves and if they think I'm wrong, tell me so. Let's make things interesting, and let's let his case be proven instead of just passed down from a mountain top. That's what we're all about here. Jerry Lawler does rule, but he's also flawed, just like every wrestler ever. To point out those flaws isn't to say people should run the other way, cover their ears and sing "la la la, I can't hear you". I'm pretty sure his comments about how your criticisms should be ignored were tongue-in-cheek. Yes and no. I don't think anyone would not pick up the Lawler set because Loss doesn't like him. No, because now I have to spend my time defending him when I should be making sarcastic one liners in the podcast forum and finishing Part 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Also, just occurred to me that Lawler does have a bush-league Stone Cold Stunner in the indys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Seems like this he delved into bringing up guys people generally think are great and knocking them down a peg. Here are some guys I always thought were good but never thought of as great: Roderick Strong Yoshinobu Kanemaru Tsuyoshi Kikuchi Atsushi Aoki Shinjiro Ohtani Chris Hero (although he's evolved into something that could end up being great) Mohammed Yone Shane Douglas Jeff Jarrett Yujiro Takahashi Ryusuke Taguchi Tetsuya Naito Edge Johnny Ace Taiyo Kea Lance Hoyt/Archer Davey Boy Smith Jr Jacques Rougeau Sting Jay Lethal EDIT - actually, the OP was about guys who he thought were great and then changed his mind on over the years. That's different than what I just did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Paul Orndorff is someone that jumps to mind when looking at the title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Most of the guys in W2BTD's list are average but not good in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Most of the guys in W2BTD's list are average but not good in my book. Here are some guys i'd call average or run-of-the-mill Damien Sandow Charlie Hass Rhyno Billy Gunn Bob Holly Bobby Roode James Storm Adam Pearce Rob Conway Magnum T.A. Lex Luger Toru Yano Triple H Barry Darsow Bill Eadie Greg Valentine Rick Rude Cody Rhodes Randy Orton D-Lo Brown Tensai/Giant Bernard One Man Gang Tim Horner Al Perez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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