WWE PayBack - Live as it happens

[Steenalized]

Sounds like having the audio off and listening to something else was the right call. I loved the show and didn't have the presentation bother that, though to be fair I more or less tune out anything and everything from the commentators.

[Russellmania]

Sheamus/Cesaro was awesome and clubbering badass Sheamus needing a flash pin to beat Cesaro was a smart finish. I keep hearing rumors that Sheamus is going to turn heel, so I hope him "stealing" a win like this means they're finally starting to move in that direction.

[anarchistxx]

Skipped everything other than the last three matches.

 

Wyatt/Cena was actuially quite enjoyable, probably because I fast forwarded until half way through and was spared the rambling time wasting that takes play in the first 50% of most WWE main event type bouts. The finish was suitably chaotic, and it was a really good move getting the Usos involved; they get a good rub from working with John Cena and it adds a bit of spice to what has become a tedious, repetitive feud.

 

Paige/Alicia Fox was decent enough, the two best women in the division and didn't feel out of place near the top of the card, even if it was just to split the two big mens matches. They can do a lot with Paige, she has personality and is a face people can get behind, she hasn't been infected by the smiley happy annoying vibes that a lot of WWE faces get destroyed by.

 

The main event was fun, although a bit disappointing. Should have gone another ten minutes. Can't believe how little Evolution have been protected - never thought I'd say it but HHH needs to stop jobbing him and his mates out. It has made the feud far less interesting and competitive than it could have been. Batista in particular has been ruined by it, which is a shame as he is just getting into his stride again. He looked strangely like an aging roman emperor, with his blue attire and bald spot and lovely thick beard. Hope they put the strap on him if DB has to vacate, seems little chance of that though, he must have serious heat in the office to be doing all these jobs. Shame because he is a really good heel, and there are a lot of up and coming face challengers.

 

I felt Reigns should have been eliminated after the caning, would have kept his credibility and be a shock for him to go first. And then you can have Rollins/Ambrose show fighting spirit against the odds as the underdogs, with it maybe coming down to Rollins and Trips with HHH getting the win after a struggle. Would have generated some serious heat and given the feud the impetus to carry on. Hope that wasn't the final word on it, but really hard to see where they might go after such a definitive finish. Maybe Batista walks out on Raw and does his film.

[C.S.]

Cesaro was booked like shit, losing to Sheamus in a bland momentum killing-match that the IWC will pretend to like just because Cesaro was in it.

 

 

Well you caught me! Rubbish match.

 

Maybe it was my mood then, but I just don't see how this helps Cesaro. Wrestling is scripted, so there's no reason this match had to happen at all. Both Sheamus and Cesaro could have been put in positions to win and continue their momentum. Bringing back RVD, who looks old and is being acknowledged as old by the commentators (WTF?), is a waste of a spot/match. Having RVD put over Cesaro last month was perfect. This month was one month too many for RVD.

 

I realize Cesaro will be fine. I'm just tired of illogical, poorly thought out, rushed WWE booking. Unless it's the 2-3 main storylines, it seems like they're just throwing darts at a wall. No, not a new problem, but still irritating.

[Sean Liska]

WWE's in really good shape when we're complaining about them giving us a match as good as Sheamus-Cesaro. That match would have blown people away if it happened a few years ago and now it's just expected that we get stuff like this regularly.

[Badlittlekitten]

Yeah, I'm not sure what CS is on about with the 'no reason this match had to happen at all' argument. If nothing else is what a good little opening match that served to heat up the crowd. I don't see how Cesaro losing by 'fluke' after a competitive match hurts him either. The finish was also another nice subtle step to set up Sheamus's inevitable heel turn.

[Childs]

I'm surprised how often people want matches to go longer. I almost never have that reaction to wrestling anymore and am more likely to feel the opposite.

 

The Shield-Evolution match was good in the big moments and in the overall message it delivered, but the pacing was weird. Though I'd have to watch again to be sure, I felt they re-used the same idea of a protracted Evolution beatdown once too often. I think I'd have enjoyed it more if they'd milked some drama out of attempted eliminations at various points in the match. Instead, it hit me as a long match with a somewhat rushed (though effective) finishing sequence.

 

I get that they were pushing the idea of Evolution wanting to destroy the Shield. The heat sections just dragged for me.

 

Anyway, it was a strong B show with few moments of real downtime and some holy shit moments like the Cena stair toss.

[Russellmania]

Yeah, I'm not sure what CS is on about with the 'no reason this match had to happen at all' argument. If nothing else is what a good little opening match that served to heat up the crowd. I don't see how Cesaro losing by 'fluke' after a competitive match hurts him either. The finish was also another nice subtle step to set up Sheamus's inevitable heel turn.

I was worried for a second that Sheamus was going to no-sell the giant swing, pop up and hit the Brogue Kick for the win. The flash pin was great though.

[BillThompson]

I'm surprised how often people want matches to go longer. I almost never have that reaction to wrestling anymore and am more likely to feel the opposite.

 

15-20 minutes is about what I look for in a really engaging match, but it's not a hard rule I live by.

[Bierschwale]

I'm surprised how often people want matches to go longer. I almost never have that reaction to wrestling anymore and am more likely to feel the opposite.

 

It's definitely ingrained into fans though, even through companies where short matches were the norm, like the WWF/E. When they go to commercial on Raw/SD now, it's like that they're endorsing the match as something meaningful.

[The Man in Blak]

Strangely enough, Payback was the first PPV I've ever caught live on the Network, even though I signed up before Wrestlemania 30. There were a few moments of sketchy image quality during the opening match and Paige/Alicia, but the overall stream was solid for me on PS3.

Anyway, I liked Cesaro/Sheamus a lot, especially as an opener, but I do feel like it was undermined by the booking and *especially* the finish and post-match. I do like Sheamus's small package as a desperation / hope spot after the swing, but having it actually get the flash pin and, even worse, having Sheamus pop right up after the pin like nothing happened both makes Cesaro look like a chump and makes his Giant Swing kind of look like a waste of time. If there was ever a time to take advantage of a 15-minute time limit for a broadway, this was probably it, but I realize that asking for that in modern WWE is probably foolish. No idea where they go with Cesaro -- the pairing with Heyman seemed like a really interesting jumping point for him at the time, but they haven't really capitalized on it and, with a couple of months in the rear view mirror, it's looking less like a vehicle for Cesaro and more like an excuse to keep Heyman on TV so he can keep saying the name "BROCK LESNAR" as much as possible. Despite that, this probably would have been my favorite match of the night if it had put together a better finish.

It's been great to have the Brotherhood around to run the southern tag formula in perpetuum on the undercard but, if they weren't actually going to push them as championship contenders, then I think they made the right call in splitting the team and doing it without turning either character (though maybe there will be more to come on that). Having Cody walk out on Goldust was a nice mirror image to the Booker T / Goldust split. Also: has Curtis Axel ever not been a complete waste of time?

I was pleasantly surprised by Rusev and Big E. If you're going to sprint, you could do a lot worse, spot-wise, than a Big E spear to the outside and that NASTY Rusev kick. Oddly enough, I think that chinlock can work as a finisher for Rusev, as long as he continues to snug it up and wrench that thing back - the guy is so huge and stocky that it would seem impossible for most guys to have any shot of getting out of it. The pre-match Putin stuff never ceases to be awful and overly gimmicky, though, no matter how great Lana looks.

The Bo Dallas segment was cute for what it was, though seeing Kane play his demon character in 2014 still borders on embarrassing. (Of course, this is the same company that let a voice-modulated kid scare Cena at Extreme Rules, so maybe WWE Creative is obsessed with horror movie banality.) Bo's pre-match grab for cheap sports heat didn't work so well with me, especially since Heyman already went to that well earlier in the night, but his post-attack speech for Kofi sounded like it might have hooked a part of the Chicago crowd. Out of all the recent NXT imports, Bo Dallas is the only one that's leaving me wanting more.

The jabs at RVD's age during the intro to the IC Title Match were a bit surprising to hear. In a WWE where they let guys like Bryan and Sheamus unload with stiff strikes, you'd think that RVD would be right at home, but he does seem one half-step slower and one half-step looser...and he really couldn't afford to lose anything in either department. I think this match with Barrett might have been the best of his comeback -- the slingshot into a DDT at the end was a nice moment -- but I'm not sure where they go with him after this. His past history and skillset means he's a decent fit to play a "wily veteran" role in the upcoming Money in the Bank matchup, but losing an IC title shot doesn't make sense toward that build. As for Barrett, he's got a long road ahead if they're going to use him to rebuild the credibility of the IC title, but a clean win over RVD certainly doesn't hurt.

Bryan's post-WM run has been a mess, though there's little that he or WWE could have done to work around his family tragedies and his neck injury. Having said that, it's a credit to how over he is that they can book him in another soap opera segment on the PPV and still have the crowd stay behind him. Brie can't act at all, but she got her money's worth out of that slap. One possibility for Money in the Bank would be to advertise that title shot as being close to a guaranteed title win for whoever wins the MITB ladder match, thanks to Bryan's injury; if Bryan could actually go in a limited capacity, they could protect him by having a heel (Orton or HHH?) win and cash in immediately after the MITB match, only to find out that Bryan is actually capable of wrestling. A clearly hobbled Bryan could gut out a fluke win, setting up an easy rematch at the next PPV.

Cena/Wyatt had the right idea and the right spots, but never connected the dots all the way for me. A lot of that has to do with Cena getting the Hulk Hogan treatment - having him get up from a clean Sister Abigail and immediately cut loose with an AA stuck out as a particularly silly moment. The finish was straight out of the Attitude era and not necessarily in a good way. Still, this was probably the best match of the night, just by virtue of having the flashiest spots. If this was Cena finally overcoming the Wyatt Family with the help of the Usos after two straight losses to them on PPV, it would have had a much better ring to it, but Cena's win at WM30 still stands out as the crucial mistake in this feud. Once Bray lost that first PPV match, all of the potential drama out of John Cena having to "become a monster" to win (which, again, never really came up as an in-ring story here) had already stalled on the launch pad.

The Alicia/Paige match was weird. Alicia's work as a heel in the ring continues to be great, but the booking for her continues to make no sense -- having her pin Paige clean in her hometown in a non-title match, but lose clean both here and on the go-home show was bizarre. I'm actually not a fan of her post-match schtick, but she deserves a lot better than what she's getting here. Their approach to Paige so far isn't working for me either. The WCW-era Randy Savage template -- having her spend 90% of the match eating offense, only to pop up with a miracle elbow, er, finisher -- might work for her if she actually managed to sell convincingly during or after the match, but she's doing neither and her comeback here felt particularly contrived. I haven't seen her work in NXT, but I'm inclined to think that she's better suited as a heel; her ring mannerisms and her Bull Nakano crosslock finisher seems better suited for heelwork, with the latter serving as a prime control/escape spot.

Finally, the main event, which was a hot mess that somehow managed to be both ten minutes too short and ten minutes too long. Tons of fun in the moment, but full of fridge logic once the match was over. There's got to be a fascinating backstage story about Batista's ring attire. As cm funk mentioned, the standard six-man tag structure made absolutely no sense here, though I guess they didn't want to seem too same-y after the Cena/Wyatt match turned into an arena-sprawling brawl. I suppose the Reigns/HHH segment early on here was supposed to play as foreshadowing of some epic showdown, like the Hogan/Warrior confrontation at RR '90, but I'd much rather see Ambrose get that shot; the sequence where HHH hit him with the knee, only to have Ambrose tease a fall to the outside and bounce back to blast him with a clothesline was beautiful. I'm all for giving the Shield a rocket push, but having them come back and win in a clean sweep, especially after having Reigns get "caned" in the ring for an eternity, is over the top. Still, even if the execution is off, the end result is the right call; now that they've established the Shield as being unstoppable as a group, book all three of them in the MITB match (or maybe even a three-way dance for a right to be in MITB?) to try and sow dissension in the ranks.

On the whole, I didn't think Payback was too bad, though virtually all of its undercard was still mired in the one-step-forward-one-step-back limbo that WWE has been stuck in after Wrestlemania. As someone who's been away from wrestling for ten years, I'm probably lucky that guys like Cena, Sheamus and Orton (who, in particular, seems like he's being wasted in Evolution) haven't been over-exposed for me. However, none of the in-ring work really hit me as being revolutionary. Most of what I've seen since I came back has comfortably fit into the WWE Style of brawling that the company was doing back when I watched regularly ten years ago; match structures are still overly contrived to create specific Moments, rather than interesting Matches that actually build and flow from end to end. The spots that punctuate all that brawling, though, are flashier.

I'm actually more interested in the follow-up than I was in the in-ring action at Payback. (And I guess, by some measure, that means that Payback is ultimately a success.) There are a LOT of booking dead ends to sort out, as the extended post-WM programs have clearly run their course. I'm not convinced that Bray Wyatt has really been elevated by having Cena clown on him for the last three months. On a different wavelength, the Shield don't really have anybody else left to trample, now that they've decisively beaten the Acting CEO of the Company and his pet stable for two PPVs in a row.

[shoe]

In rewatch I liked the main event much better. It still has it's flaws. Not going long enough isn't one of them.That Titan tron dive by Rollins was sick, but what reason would he be up there for? Still overall a really strong show.

[Coffey]

I thought the Small Package surprise finish to the Cesaro/Sheamus match was great & I usually hate roll-up finishes. Right after a 20-count Giant Swing where Cesaro would be disoriented though? It made perfect sense.

[y2stump]

Really liked Payback on the whole, but the last man standing match didn't do it for me. Yes, it had big spots but it had zero selling. I know we're all used to it but last night it just seemed more obvious. That match was an overbooked, Attitide era at its worst, clusterfuck.

[tim]

I wouldn't even call Shield/Evolution good to be honest. Long and boring. Sure, the narrative was fine but if you have a narrative you want to get across in a match the work still has to be good.

[The Man in Blak]

I thought the Small Package surprise finish to the Cesaro/Sheamus match was great & I usually hate roll-up finishes. Right after a 20-count Giant Swing where Cesaro would be disoriented though? It made perfect sense.

 

Oddly enough, I actually like roll-up finishes in general. Bret Hart sticks out to me as someone who's used them effectively to cap off a longer match without making it seem cheap. As a conclusion to a 10-11 minute match, though -- even one as snug as Cesaro/Sheamus -- it doesn't quite have the same punch for me.

 

Also, it probably would have helped if either:

 

A. the inept, historically awful commentary team had actually driven the point home that the Giant Swing takes as much out of Cesaro as it does the victim. (Though, again, if that's the case, why do the move if you're in control at all?)

B. Sheamus had bothered to sell any of the disorientation after the match, which he really didn't.

 

It's interesting to compare it against their Main Event match, where both guys built a first half out of blasting each other with stiff uppercuts, but not really drawing the crowd into it until they started integrating some actual moves into the second half. (Something else that's interesting about that Main Event match: Cesaro pulled off a small package attempt of his own in that match, but it didn't get the pin.)

 

At Payback, they trimmed down the brawling a little bit, punctuated those bursts of uppercuts more effectively with signature moves, and had a cleaner and more compelling build as a result. Short circuiting the payoff of that build with a flash pin off a cradle just seemed dissonant to the build itself; maybe I'd have a different opinion if it had come off of a bomb like a Brogue Kick counter.

[Loss]

The problem I have with PPV matches involving Cesaro and Sheamus is that neither guy has a second gear week-to-week, so they don't really leave themselves anything to work up to when they have matches on big shows. Yes, it was a good match, but did it feel any more special than a match they'd have on Main Event?

[Loss]

I also like Sheamus doing the punches to the chest, but I think it isn't over like it should be. It's just a fun count-along thing because it happens in every single match instead of it being saved for moments where it can really get over the hatred or violence in a match. I wish it was more of a special occasion spot.

[Dylan Waco]

The problem I have with PPV matches involving Cesaro and Sheamus is that neither guy has a second gear week-to-week, so they don't really leave themselves anything to work up to when they have matches on big shows. Yes, it was a good match, but did it feel any more special than a match they'd have on Main Event?

 

I understand the second part of the point, but I don't understand the first part.

[Loss]

My point is that Sheamus and Cesaro are both wrestlers that have good outings regularly and instead of their pay-per-view outings being even better, they merely maintain the quality of their week-to-week performances. So if you buy a show to see a Sheamus or Cesaro match, it's not like you're getting anything you don't already get for free anyway. It's not so much a knock at them as it is a knock at WWE booking. It's not the WWE way, but giving them 27 minutes would have made the match feel special. Giving them the same amount of time they get every week anyway isn't really going to help make the match all that memorable. More time doesn't always make a better match, but I think both Sheamus and Cesaro would benefit more from having a special match at this stage than a good one. They've both had plenty of good ones, and they're both going sideways instead of climbing the ladder.

[anarchistxx]

 

 

My point is that Sheamus and Cesaro are both wrestlers that have good outings regularly and instead of their pay-per-view outings being even better, they merely maintain the quality of their week-to-week performances.

 

They remind me of an indy band like Real Estate, where all the material on the record is solid, but nothing really stands out. Undertaker is more like a pop act such as Rihanna, with some occasionally brilliant singles but also some real filler and stinkers on his album tracks. Daniel Bryan is The Beatles.

[The Man in Blak]

I also like Sheamus doing the punches to the chest, but I think it isn't over like it should be. It's just a fun count-along thing because it happens in every single match instead of it being saved for moments where it can really get over the hatred or violence in a match. I wish it was more of a special occasion spot.

 

It's a decent twist on the usual 10-count corner punch spot, if only because the strikes look better, but I'm not really a big fan of either one. Then again, sing-along moments are the easiest, albeit most shallow, way to provide the crowd with an illusion of agency in the match. (See also: Bray Wyatt's literal singalong from last night, with him conducting the crowd from the top of the ring stairs. Cool visual.)

 

My point is that Sheamus and Cesaro are both wrestlers that have good outings regularly and instead of their pay-per-view outings being even better, they merely maintain the quality of their week-to-week performances. So if you buy a show to see a Sheamus or Cesaro match, it's not like you're getting anything you don't already get for free anyway. It's not so much a knock at them as it is a knock at WWE booking. It's not the WWE way, but giving them 27 minutes would have made the match feel special. Giving them the same amount of time they get every week anyway isn't really going to help make the match all that memorable. More time doesn't always make a better match, but I think both Sheamus and Cesaro would benefit more from having a special match at this stage than a good one. They've both had plenty of good ones, and they're both going sideways instead of climbing the ladder.

 

Booking-wise, I tend to agree, which is why I thought a 15-minute broadway made a ton of sense, as antiquated as the concept may be. They already fought to one double countout from their Main Event match - another non-conclusive finish on PPV provides a perfect excuse to escalate the program into something more substantial and, thus, something that potentially offers more ammunition for both guys.

 

As it stands, they're probably going to re-run them again at Money in the Bank but, unless they're planning on Heyman abandoning Cesaro for Sheamus as a part of the MITB payoff, there's not a lot of heat to carry over into a rematch after a win like that. (Unless, of course, they oversteer and try to emphatically push that cradle pin as a total fluke on Raw, which does no favors for the Payback match either.) It just keeps them spinning their wheels, like the rest of the undercard.

[goc]

I thought this was a really good show, from the pre-show all the way through. The mask/hair match was a lot of fun, although not quite as fun as the match last month. Cesaro/Sheamus wasn't quite as good as I expected because they didn't have more time, but it was still really good and I enjoyed the finish. I actually liked the Rhodes Bros/Rybaxel tag match quite a bit and then Big E vs Rusev was pretty good for the time it had.

 

I didn't expect to like Cena/Wyatt nearly as much as I did AND even thought the finish was well done if they were going to go with Cena winning. Evolution/Shield was just "good" up until the last 10 minutes at which point I think it was great. I don't even know where they go with The Shield at this point except a breakup, I don't see what other group they can throw at them unless they want to try and rehash the Wyatts feud.

[Dylan Waco]

The Shield could feud with the Wyatts again, but I don't see any reason why they have to split as a unit even if they work singles feuds. The beauty of the trios format is that they can protect big matches, protect certain guys from taking falls and build singles feuds off of them

[C.S.]

Yeah, I'm not sure what CS is on about with the 'no reason this match had to happen at all' argument. If nothing else is what a good little opening match that served to heat up the crowd. I don't see how Cesaro losing by 'fluke' after a competitive match hurts him either. The finish was also another nice subtle step to set up Sheamus's inevitable heel turn.

 

What I'm "on about" is this:

 

How does the match or result help Cesaro? How does it further his momentum? Hell, how does it help Sheamus?

 

The answer for all of the above is "it doesn't."

 

I was worried for a second that Sheamus was going to no-sell the giant swing, pop up and hit the Brogue Kick for the win. The flash pin was great though.

 

May as well have been a no-sell. Cesaro hits one of his signature spots, only to lose right after. That's crap.

 

Yes, the Cesaro Swing would logically take a lot out of him too, but as someone else pointed out, the commentators didn't get that over at all. Besides, I'm not sure I buy that argument anyway, because it has never worked that way in any of his other matches (but correct me if I'm wrong).

 

 

They've both had plenty of good ones, and they're both going sideways instead of climbing the ladder.

 

THANK YOU! THIS is my point. They're moving sideways, particularly Cesaro. It's a problem with WWE booking in general, and it has irritated me about many matches/feuds - this just happens to be the one I'm arguing about right now.