Commonly used words and phrases that annoy you

[Bix]

I might be alone on this, but I die a little inside when reading the word "botch." It's a meaningful term by itself. But thanks to Botchamania the word is being thrown about like it's a fucking insider term, or an official statistic. Some places have actually seen arguments over whether a particular spot was or was not a "botch." I hate it, hate it, hate it.

I've hated "botch" for awhile but couldn't put my finger on why, so thank you.

[jdw]

What I am arguing is that the Internet allowed for certain "elite" ideas to spread on an exponentially larger degree than would've been possible otherwise. It was still ultimately a minority Albeit a loud one, but it was a huge shift that thanks to the growth of social media creating sort of a second wave Led to The booking at the start of this year. It was a KeyPoint if not the key point of change.

 

Again, I don't disagree to the general concept.

 

But I'd also say that the WON allowed for elite ideas to spread on an on an exponentially larger degree that had been previously possible when fans like Yohe and Front Row Section D operated in either isolation (if they didn't have a few Smart Hardcore Fan bus like themselves), or in small circles (such as FRSD). Suddenly you go from a group of 1 or 10 to being in a group of 3K.

 

In turn, the growth in the early web days were expanding the circle from perhaps 6K (lets say WON+Torch+RSP-W+Prodigy+AOLGSW with there being a decent amount of overlap between one of more of those) to say 60K in 1998/99. Pad the number up higher if you want, but it's possible the 6K number is low as well.

 

That 60K has grown over time. It's far higher now, though I look at the number of different posters on this board and it really doesn't look like a higher number than the elite boards had in the 1999-2001 range. Is DVDVR at peak numbers now, and is that peak number insanely more than say 2005?

 

The Interweb Websites were a Key Point in the evolution of hardcore wrestling fandom in this country. There have been a number of them, and the evolution from say 1983 (the dawn of the WON) to the present is one of a new continual evolution.

 

That's generally a point I, and others, have been trying to get across. It's not a 0:1 binary flip the switch moment. More that the switch was already on, there was a fair amount of juice going through it, and then a brand new bigger electric plant got built that cranked up the juice to a higher level. It still was electricity, and it still was the same type of electricity as before. There was more of it.

[Matt D]

 

What I am arguing is that the Internet allowed for certain "elite" ideas to spread on an exponentially larger degree than would've been possible otherwise. It was still ultimately a minority Albeit a loud one, but it was a huge shift that thanks to the growth of social media creating sort of a second wave Led to The booking at the start of this year. It was a KeyPoint if not the key point of change.

 

Again, I don't disagree to the general concept.

 

But I'd also say that the WON allowed for elite ideas to spread on an on an exponentially larger degree that had been previously possible when fans like Yohe and Front Row Section D operated in either isolation (if they didn't have a few Smart Hardcore Fan bus like themselves), or in small circles (such as FRSD). Suddenly you go from a group of 1 or 10 to being in a group of 3K.

 

In turn, the growth in the early web days were expanding the circle from perhaps 6K (lets say WON+Torch+RSP-W+Prodigy+AOLGSW with there being a decent amount of overlap between one of more of those) to say 60K in 1998/99. Pad the number up higher if you want, but it's possible the 6K number is low as well.

 

That 60K has grown over time. It's far higher now, though I look at the number of different posters on this board and it really doesn't look like a higher number than the elite boards had in the 1999-2001 range. Is DVDVR at peak numbers now, and is that peak number insanely more than say 2005?

 

The Interweb Websites were a Key Point in the evolution of hardcore wrestling fandom in this country. There have been a number of them, and the evolution from say 1983 (the dawn of the WON) to the present is one of a new continual evolution.

 

That's generally a point I, and others, have been trying to get across. It's not a 0:1 binary flip the switch moment. More that the switch was already on, there was a fair amount of juice going through it, and then a brand new bigger electric plant got built that cranked up the juice to a higher level. It still was electricity, and it still was the same type of electricity as before. There was more of it.

 

 

And I don't disagree with a lot of this. I think it's an evolution. I'm personally not arguing otherwise. What I am arguing is that the internet coming along is the most important moment of it. Otherwise, you'd still have that small group with their newsletter, that if the WON coming along allowed this relatively tiny group of people to find each other and develop their views, the internet coming along allowed this mindset to spread to the masses (over time), and that was the most important part of all of this, the thing that would have never happened otherwise.

[jdw]

I don't know if the Interwebs is #1 or someone reporting on wrestling as Fake Entertainment, with Insider News, Analysis, Commentary and Reviewing it as Performance is more important. Or Vince copping to it being fake.

 

Would SKeith and others have been talking like they talked in 1998/99, influencing the masses like Jerry and changing their world view, if it weren't for Dave?

 

No.

 

They would be using the choppy terms that folks like Kriz, KHawk, I and others were using before we came across Dave or a Dave influenced Net. I don't really think that would have been all that earth shattering.

 

Insider news? Honestly... it flat out sucked in 1998/99 outside of Dave and Wade. Guys like Scherer were ripping them off left and right, other than being feed stuff by the promotions. I'm also not entirely sure that people like Heyman and others inside the business would have talked to Hardcore Fans if their walls had not already been brought down by Dave and Wade. Kind of saw it first hand, in a variety of ways. Even the breaking down of the walls with ECW and WCW... that was down by RSP-W, AOL GSW and Prodigy guys, not by the later Big Boys of the Web like Issacs, Lords of Paste, Wrestleline, SKeith, etc.

 

If there was no Dave, and spawns of Dave, your IWC Revolution is likely to be even less on Hardcore Fan and far more on Fan Boy / Fan Support. Think Stuart and his puroresu empire, which even he admited was a support site rather than a real hardcore fan site.

 

I'm not saying that Dave and the WON were #1 on importance. But I keep going back to it: an evolution. Which you agree to. Beyond that, it's pretty pointless to rank them on levels of importance. Each step was important in expanding it, with each building on the prior one while also needing it to have preceded it.

[Hollinger.]

Yeah, I think jdw and I have wildly different takes on the make-up and attitude of modern audiences. I think the crowd thinks of itself as being much smarter than he's giving it credit for and that the MAJORITY of fans would think in terms of booking etc.; him the opposite. Maybe some others can chime in here with their own views: guys who have been to Wrestlemania or major PPVs recently, etc.

 

Without having read past this statement, being at wrestling shows every weekend, having gone to a PPV this year and other WWE shows within the last year, the majority of the fans at those shows are not smart to the business. I'm sure many of them know wrestling is fake, but they aren't smart to it. Most of the fans that I've overheard having conversations about shit they read online have been the biggest marks in the building. You're severely overestimating the general populous.

[Hollinger.]

In turn, I don't think the majority of fans think in these terms:

 

"I really wish that Cesario was booked in the mid-card rather than booked in the prelims. If he's stuck in the prelims, he's never going to get to the main events. Fucking Triple H!"

 

Instead it's more likely to be:

 

"I like Cesario. I really wish they did more with him and he was in the title hunt. I'd love to see him take the belt from Orton."

 

I don't think the majority of fans talk about booking like the do on places like PWO.

 

 

Or, if I'd read a couple more posts before responding. This sums it up nicely.

[Loss]

Here is one that I've caught myself saying a few times and now I'm not sure why, as I don't know that there's a clear meaning surrounding it.

 

What does it mean when a match is "my turn/your turn" and why is this a bad thing? What would be the more desirable alternative?

[Dylan Waco]

Matches based around sustained runs of momentum are much better in my view because to me the key to a good match is building heat. Without the build I don't give a fuck how many gainers or suplexes you do. On the flip side (get it) if things are too back and fourth, with no sustained runs the near falls come across as replacing the build to the heat and the match puts me to sleep. That style is what I would call your turn, my turn (not there are occasions when that sort of thing can work, but they are generally the exception not the rule).

[PeteF3]

What Dylan said. I mainly tend to use it when a match or portion of a match has a bunch of rapidfire counters and swings of momentum in which guys (or gals, as this is a problem with joshi) bounce back to being 100% as soon as they hit a countermove, only to go back to selling like death when their move is inevitably countered as well. Repeat the process from there and you have a match that tends to annoy me really quickly.

[JerryvonKramer]

Here is one that I've caught myself saying a few times and now I'm not sure why, as I don't know that there's a clear meaning surrounding it.

 

What does it mean when a match is "my turn/your turn" and why is this a bad thing? What would be the more desirable alternative?

I used this in my review of The Funks vs. Giant Baba and Jumbo (this thread).

 

This was a great match with some terrific action worked at a fine pace. Perhaps a little bit too "your turn, my turn" in places, it was at its best when Dory and Terry were on top working a classic US-style heat/FIP sequence. They were superb tagging in and out and Dory was particularly excellent when controlling and hitting his bombs. I think it's fair to say that as a tagteam, they are at their best either when Terry is selling, or when Dory is on top. Great match by anyone's standards though.

What I meant was, there were portions of the match when one of the Funks would hit a move, then Jumbo would hit a move, then one of the Funks would hit a move, without any apparent rhyme or reason. Literally "your turn [to do a move], my turn [to do a move]".

 

I don't mind like parity when it is worked as if both guys or both teams are struggling to get the upper hand, but not so much when they are trading moves one for one like that because the offense -- especially the high spots -- lose their impact. I prefer sustained periods of control or heat.

[Loss]

Does it matter when in the match it comes? I don't think there's anything wrong with working a finishing stretch that way where you're trying to get over the idea that it's anybody's ballgame.

[JerryvonKramer]

Yes it does, I think Loss. I'm talking about stuff that happens in the "meat and body" of the match. Let's say in a longer 30-minute match like that, if they are simply trading moves around the 15 minute mark, it seems a bit listless.

[jpchicago23]

Some things commonly said that I'm not a huge fan of are the word promotion instead of WWE,AWA, etc. Id rather here someone say he had a good run in AWA then say he had a sustained push in the promotion. And its not the fact that one sounds smarter than the other I just don't like when a fan almost tries to sound too insider. I guess I'm a little more laid back in that sense. Another term I hate in certain contexts is mark. When someone says they're a Dibiase mark, or a Flair mark that's fine. When its used as a derogatory term to put down a fan is when I hate it. It comes off as being prickish. A lot of it for me is being in the Tampa area and I used to hear Bubba the Lovesponge use all the insider terms he could just because he and Hogan were fuck buddies. He would always call people marks and act as if he was a legitimate part of wrestling. Hearing him get ragged on for Kong beating his ass was good though

[dgrblue]

Sports Entertainment and Diva bug the heck out of me. It's not sports entertainment, it's pro wrestling. they aren't sports entertainers, they are pro wrestlers. I don't care how often or for how long the WWE hype machine tries to get over the sports entertainment ideology, it just doesn't fly with me. Diva is a belittling and demeaning term, it shouldn't be used as a name for a women's wrestling division or for women wrestlers in general.

Passive fans of wrestling will not care what wwe stands for, but the traditional fan despises wwe for its unabated bashing if the wrestling profession. Wwe claims to not be a wrestling company, but rather a sports entertainment company. This goes back,to,1989 when vince sued the ny/nj athletic commissions, claiming his product was no,different than musicians, or other forms of entertainment, and not athletic competition, and therefore since it is not real, it is not subject to taxation andbfees. Today it is wrestling that is used as a backdrop to sell t-shirts, toys and other crap, rather than to make a better overall product. It is more important to sell,merchandise, and make stars, than to have better storylines, in today's wwe.

[dgrblue]

Sports Entertainment and Diva bug the heck out of me. It's not sports entertainment, it's pro wrestling. they aren't sports entertainers, they are pro wrestlers. I don't care how often or for how long the WWE hype machine tries to get over the sports entertainment ideology, it just doesn't fly with me. Diva is a belittling and demeaning term, it shouldn't be used as a name for a women's wrestling division or for women wrestlers in general.

Passive fans of wrestling will not care what wwe stands for, but the traditional fan despises wwe for its unabated bashing if the wrestling profession. Wwe claims to not be a wrestling company, but rather a sports entertainment company. This goes back,to,1989 when vince sued the ny/nj athletic commissions, claiming his product was no,different than musicians, or other forms of entertainment, and not athletic competition, and therefore since it is not real, it is not subject to taxation andbfees. Today it is wrestling that is used as a backdrop to sell t-shirts, toys and other crap, rather than to make a better overall product. It is more important to sell,merchandise, and make stars, than to have better storylines, in today's wwe.

 

 

Maybe others will disagree but in my view "control segment" can only refer to a babyface being on offense after the initial shine in a longer match. Example:Shine [babyface dominates to start]

[transition] [heel does something cheap to gain advantage]Heat [heel works over face]

[transition] [big reversal by face]Control [face works over heel]

[transition] [face slips up, is countered, or heel does something cheap again]Heat [heel works over face]Comeback [face fires up]Finish

In a typical Bob Backlund match you pretty much only get control. I think it ceases to be shine in the strictest sense once you're past the 10 minute mark.

 

My problem with this is that not all match layouts have to be formulaic or meet certain pre-defined criteria.

Yes, but if you watch thirty matches, you're going to find common traits between many of them. It's not about establishing rules about things matches have to have or even necessarily what makes them good or bad. It's about finding commonalities in them to better understand how pro wrestling works. There'll always be exceptions, but I think finding and defining patterns is the bread and butter of any sort of analysis.

 

Now, what you say about there being differing uses of these terms by different people is definitely an issue, but I think it's an insurmountable one.

A lot of the old wwwf big matches were like that.

[Guest Eduardo James]

wrestlecrap

[goodhelmet]

Movez.

 

I thought about banning posters who use this in their posts. True story.

[GSR]

 

Sports Entertainment and Diva bug the heck out of me. It's not sports entertainment, it's pro wrestling. they aren't sports entertainers, they are pro wrestlers. I don't care how often or for how long the WWE hype machine tries to get over the sports entertainment ideology, it just doesn't fly with me. Diva is a belittling and demeaning term, it shouldn't be used as a name for a women's wrestling division or for women wrestlers in general.

Passive fans of wrestling will not care what wwe stands for, but the traditional fan despises wwe for its unabated bashing if the wrestling profession. Wwe claims to not be a wrestling company, but rather a sports entertainment company. This goes back,to,1989 when vince sued the ny/nj athletic commissions, claiming his product was no,different than musicians, or other forms of entertainment, and not athletic competition, and therefore since it is not real, it is not subject to taxation andbfees. Today it is wrestling that is used as a backdrop to sell t-shirts, toys and other crap, rather than to make a better overall product. It is more important to sell,merchandise, and make stars, than to have better storylines, in today's wwe.

 

What on earth are you on about?

[MikeCampbell]

Here is one that I've caught myself saying a few times and now I'm not sure why, as I don't know that there's a clear meaning surrounding it.

 

What does it mean when a match is "my turn/your turn" and why is this a bad thing? What would be the more desirable alternative?

I've always interpreted this as the wrestlers trading off spots, or strikes, without any regard for building the match or telling a story. Like the AJPW pop up sequences with the suplexes, or the Kobashi/Sasaki eternal chop exchanges.

[Shining Wiz]

The WWE.

Though, that is a step up from "the WCW."

[funkdoc]

definitely agree re: "wrestlecrap" and "botch", but i like "movez" well enough as useful shorthand for a real phenomenon

[BillThompson]

Botch doesn't bother me, it's pretty much the same as saying an actor flubbed their line. Can't say I ever use wrestlecrap, and I guess I was never hip to the movez term because even when others were using it I would use regular old moves myself.

[Hollinger.]

Botch bothers the fuck out of me, because most of the people I see using it have no idea what the fuck it means. God knows how many times I've seen someone on twitter or tumblr say that X wrestler just "did a botch". What the fuck? Are you familiar with English?

[funkdoc]

Botch doesn't bother me, it's pretty much the same as saying an actor flubbed their line. Can't say I ever use wrestlecrap, and I guess I was never hip to the movez term because even when others were using it I would use regular old moves myself.

 

there was a really good criticism of "botch" earlier in this thread IIRC

 

basically the way people use it nowadays came from botchamania, to the point that you see arguments over whether something is an Official Botch or not. as if people are tracking those and rating matches that way

[PeteF3]

Right. "Botch" is a perfectly valid English word by itself. But in addition to the above, I think it's needlessly vague. For the title of a series of web videos it's fine, but for general wrestling discussion...if a spot gets blown, just call it a blown spot (or hell, even a botched spot). If a cue is missed, call it a missing the cue. If an interview line is flubbed...you can tell where I'm going with this.

 

I think MOVEZ is an ironic term, a backlash against fans who tend to rate wrestlers by how large their moveset is (most of whom haven't seem to have existed since the late '90s/early '00s). Someone who cares to run a search can probably find me using it myself in the Yearbooks threads, but it certainly can come across as overly cutesy. "High-end offense" is another term that's used sarcastically (by me, a lot) more than it's used literally.