2014 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame thread

[evilclown]

Why doesn't Dave decide what categories the voters should be eligible for? If he doesn't know, should they even be voters in the first place?

[kjh]

Oops, wrong thread!

[mookeighana]

Why doesn't Dave decide what categories the voters should be eligible for? If he doesn't know, should they even be voters in the first place?

 

I guess that seems a little draconian to me.

 

First of all, while Dave does "throttle" the voting (via who he deems "eligible" to get a ballot), it would seem pretty restrictive of him to also control exactly what categories people voted in. People's understanding of territories and wrestlers transform over time.

 

To be honest, it's most likely the wrestlers who are doing the most "voting with blinders on" that have the least amount of perspective about all of the candidates in a single category. There's not a lot of wrestlers who worked with Snuka, Edge, Sting and Ivan Koloff (besides maybe Flair?) yet all four are in the "modern candidates" category together.

 

For the most part, I believe that people are pretty good about sticking to where they "belong". Once Colon is done with his hodge-podge category, there'll be a lot better thought going against who is left in there.

 

PS - I subtly added another ballot this morning to the original post.

[NintendoLogic]

Incidentally those Bruno houses are generally brought up as a knock against Bruno that he wasn't a draw outside of the North East (eg by people like Matysik)

 

A knock in what respect? Matysik ranked Bruno as the fifth-greatest wrestler of all time in his book, so he couldn't have been too hard on him.

[KrisZ]

Meltz chimes in with some comparisons

 

 

JYD - His key years (1980-84 in Mid South) are not among those researched for this article based on time constraints, but we’ll probably have something on that period in the next few weeks. His positive is he was an excellent drawing card for five years. He was also a legit star for a couple of years in WWF as one of the top babyfaces who headlined a number of shows, including a strong program with Terry Funk. Negative is longevity, to a degree, and drug issues that took him down from where he could have been prematurely. Also, in the ring, one of the worst main eventers of the era. But he had more charisma than all but a few and a great promo in his Mid South days. His WWF days were a little more cartoonish on the promos but with the voice, the character worked. I see him in that sense similar to Kerry Von Erich, not even on the ballot, although Kerry had more success in more places and was the far better wrestler. He was not the promo JYD was, but still had his charisma and drawing power. If JYD gets any support, it would be hard pressed to see him any higher than Von Erich.

Edge - For Wrestler of the Year points, nobody above him eligible hasn’t been voted in. This is Punk’s first year on and Bryan Danielson and Samoa Joe aren’t on yet, and Joe probably wouldn’t make the ballot. Still, strong there. For historical drawing power, no. For great matches, only Styles is ahead of him and didn’t get voted in. Match of the year points are very good, only Kerry Von Erich, Barry Windham and Jun Akiyama are ahead that weren’t voted in. Total time as world champion is not enough on its own, but he’s there, as only Rick Martel, Akiyama, and Nagata are above him of guys in the last 34 years that weren’t voted in. Headlining big shows, he’s done it but not often enough to be a clear-cut Hall of Famer for that reason. Like many, you get a mixed bag here. Really depends on what you think of him overall as a performer. Overall better than most on the ballot. Because of the strength of match quality, it’ll be interesting to see if he becomes the modern Murdoch where his peers are strong but others aren’t strong enough to get him in.

Owen Hart - Great wrestler. Anything negative said on him will be taken the wrong way. That said, pick your category, he’s not there.

Curt Hennig - Everything said about Owen Hart goes for Curt Hennig. Both were excellent wrestlers, but in the case of Hennig, he’s got a window of a few years where he was absolutely Hall of Fame caliber, but it’s only a percentage of his career and not the entire career.

Ivan Koloff - I can’t come up with a negative to say on him. Great wrestler. The win over Sammartino at its time was one of the biggest matches in history and headlined everywhere. Top star from the late 60s and his 70s numbers as far as going places and drawing are ahead of many Hall of Famers and behind only one not in, and his consistency as a star everywhere beat Morales. One of the strongest guys on the ballot and maybe the strongest.

Brock Lesnar - Historical importance he’s got in droves. If you think MMA doesn’t count, he’s not a slam dunk. If you think it does, he is. On the larger-than-life superstar test, he’s at the level of only the Hall of Famers. Longevity is clearly the question. As far as headlining big shows, he’s at the borderline level. For all-time drawing power levels, even without MMA, he was a top draw for enough years even with a limited career that he charts at a decent level. He had a big year this year and was already a solid candidate last year. For that reason he’s got one of the better chances.

Fabulous Moolah - All depends on your measure of historical importance and value of longevity. She remained a power broker in the sport for more than three decades. As far as great performer or drawing big, it’s not there. Still, she’s always gotten strong support, particularly within the business because of her role there.

Dick Murdoch - A wrestler’s candidate. He was a star everywhere he went, but as far as the level of big drawing star that gets in, no. As far as being a great worker, he was top tier for close to two decades, so longevity is in his court, and many will tell you for pure natural talent, there was nobody better in that era. He’s come close in the past, based on wrestler support. Unfortunately, his peers are getting older, and some are dying off. His support has fallen in recent years. He doesn’t look good in the points to paper arguments and time hurts great workers and helps the poor ones. But that said, the Dick Murdoch in the ring when motivated was a Hall of Famer wrestler without question, whether in the ring, talking, or having the aura of being a star. He got over everywhere quickly. But the Japan deal meant he didn’t stay in places for long periods of time. I saw most of his career and see him as a guy you could go either way on.

Ken Patera - Like JYD, his strongest period would be 1980-84, and I didn’t get to that period yet as far as numbers go, but lived through it. He’s a guy you would consider, but he’s not top ten on this ballot. Very good wrestler. Worthy of a spot on the ballot. I did a comparison with Murdoch that goes like this. Murdoch had more longevity, was a bigger star worldwide and at his best was the better wrestler. Patera was very good at every aspect. Good in the ring. Good star power. Got over everywhere he went and was always pushed at or near the top of the cards. Okay interviews. He actually started his wrestling career late, as he was already in his early 30s, but still had a long career. He lost a lot when he got older, got out of prison, and started suffering some serious injuries. But he’s not ahead of Hall of Famers in significant categories.

C.M. Punk - This will be an interesting one, because of him ending his career young. For Wrestler of the Year points, he is a Hall of Famer. For all-time drawing power points in the sense he was a top draw worldwide for enough years, he’s good, only Big Show, Kane and Perro Aguayo Jr., of modern guys ahead of him weren’t voted in. But that says he’s also not slam dunk. Match of the Year points also good. World title tenure, the only guys above him not voted in are Nagata and Kojima. Four-star match list is good. Headlining big shows is okay. Excellent promo. In some ways Hall of Fame aura, in other ways not. He was going in the direction and a couple of more years at the same level and it would be hard to argue him. But now, yes, you can make an argument either way.

Rock & Roll Express - It’s a funny thing because they don’t show up in any category at Hall of Fame level. But, they were an excellent tag team and the memories of them have stood. Based on last year’s voting, they’ve got one of the best chances of anyone to be voted in. Obviously the key is the work, to a degree the longevity (although at a major league level it wasn’t that long, 1983-90 in Memphis, Mid South, JCP and WCW before working sporadically for big promotions, the SMW run and indies to this day on a regular basis), and more, that so many emulated them. As far as great matches, Tommy Rogers & Bobby Fulton as The Fantastics, were as good or better, but never got over to anywhere near the same degree. Really, the Fabulous Ones set the mold, but it was the Rock & Roll Express bringing a new audience to matches in Mid South that caused all the promoters to want a team like them.

Sgt. Slaughter - The Sgt. Slaughter of 1980-84 was a Hall of Famer in every way. While he had a long career, longevity from a Hall of Fame standpoint is the big question. He was good on the way up, but nothing that would be considered Hall of Fame level until his run in the Carolinas as U.S. champion and world tag team champion was Hall of Fame caliber, and his original face run in WWF was huge. But it ended quick. After 1984, past the 1991 run with Hulk Hogan that was a mixed bag, there’s nothing there. But he was very famous, even outside of wrestling, which can help, although in his case he’s never done well in voting. Very much like Hennig, but a stronger draw, and not the draw JYD was, but Slaughter was one of the best working big men ever during those peak years.

Jimmy Snuka - The Snuka of 1982-84 was also a Hall of Famer. But for a guy with such a long career, and who was always a top guy, he’s only a limited period. He headlined for years in Portland as one of the top babyfaces. The 70s Snuka was excellent in the ring, but it was mostly Portland and very little San Francisco (where he drew well when given the ball). He did very well in the Carolinas, as U.S. champ and tag champ which were major prizes in a talent-laden territory. He was on fire in WWF until drug issues and age did him in and he stayed around nearly 30 years after doing indies off the WWF run. He was also a star in Japan. People who were around for the Superfly phenomenon in WWF often consider him a slam dunk.

Sting - Perhaps the most hotly-debated candidate on the ballot. He was a guy pushed near the top level from 1988 until his career ended in TNA at the end of 2013. But aside from the 1997 Hogan run, he didn’t have the great success at drawing. His entire career was the duration of this publication and he was never considered for Wrestler of the Year or even a top place winner, even though he did great for years as far as Most Charismatic went. His drawing power doesn’t make worldwide Hall of Fame caliber list. Match of the Year points he’s in the mix, again, not at slam dunk levels but it doesn’t hurt him and he’s ahead of many Hall of Famers, but also worked with great people. World title tenure is okay, behind only Batista, Edge, Martel, Kojima and Nagata of those not in from the last 35 years. As far as headlining big shows, only Akiyama and Taue are ahead who aren’t in, and in both of those cases they were often the weaker partner of a tag team on those big shows. It’s a lot based on emotion, kind of like Moolah, in the sense you could go, “Well, he’s Sting, he should be in the Hall of Fame.” It’s about how he was pushed, usually a top guy in WCW and at times the top guy (although that period was actually very limited) and then the long TNA run where he was always pushed near the top and kept special. But that will strengthen him as time goes on. When his WCW run ended, he couldn’t stay on the ballot. As nostalgia has taken over on that period, many view him as a terrible omission.

Ultimate Warrior - Another guy who was a short-term major star. Not a great wrestler. But when it came to headlining big shows or drawing power, he’s remembered as better than he was because of the Hogan match in Toronto being such a major event. He was a strong draw on the way up and a great merchandise seller for a few years. He made more money in his best years due to merchandise of anyone but Hogan over his few year hot period, and even now it’s a figure only the top guys hit.

Jun Akiyama - Very good for a long, long time. Great wrestler when motivated. My gut on him as a star is he’s below the level. Not a great draw. Total world title tenure is good, but below slam dunk levels. His strength is that he headlined a ton of major shows. Of guys in the last 30 years, nobody headlined more major shows who isn’t in. More of a steady performer, but he not only headlined in his own promotion, but was brought in by other groups for dream matches. But as a single, his dream matches weren’t like Misawa, Kobashi, Sasaki, Muto, etc. There are Jun Akiyama’s of baseball that are in the Hall of Fame.

Gran Hamada - Excellent worker. Never a major promotion headliner outside of Mexico in trios matches. But a guy who was great in the ring for a long period of time. Some will credit his influence for so many smaller promotions like Michinoku Pro, Osaka Pro, eventually Dragon Gate, that had nice runs and were built around small guys. But when he was brought in as the top guy for Universal, the pioneer promotion, he didn’t get over at all and it was Ultimo Dragon getting over that led to the Michinoku Pro’s starting. A pure workrate candidate. But he was really good from his 20s until early 50s and changed his style as times changed.

Volk Han - Pure workrate candidate. He and Kiyoshi Tamura in the ring were the best shoot style workers. Given he came in with no training, he adapted fast, and he was very popular in Japan. It was a short period of time, but there is a reason he gets a lot of support. He was that good, and he was the No. 2 guy in a successful group for several years.

Kojima & Tenzan - While past their primes now, Kojima & Tenzan showed in G-1 that they can still go on certain nights, and Kojima has looked good most of this year. As singles or a team they are similar. Both very good, had world title runs, but their primes were when business was down. They had a record five reigns as IWGP tag team champions (although Tenzan had a similar number of reigns with Masahiro Chono), and Kojima held the Triple Crown and IWGP championship at the same time. The feud between the two over both belts at the same time helped business a lot during a bad period for both groups. Still, the guys like Kojima, Tenzan, Nagata and Akiyama were not the breakthrough level stars of their predecessors like Muto, Hashimoto, Chono, Sasaki, Misawa, Kawada and Kobashi due to coming up when television wasn’t as strong. And also, as good as both were in their prime, and Kojima was great, they were missing that ingredient that is the difference between very good significant star for a long time and all-time legend.

Minoru Suzuki - On the ballot for the first time. He was one of the big three, with Masakatsu Funaki (in) and Ken Shamrock (not in) who created the first shoot pro wrestling group with Pancrase in 1993. Now, two decades later, he’s a star with New Japan in the role of the veteran who can, when motivated, have incredible matches today. It will be very interesting how he’s viewed.

Kiyoshi Tamura - Tamura came close to getting in when his career was still alive. He’s the classic case of time hurting someone because his career ended and his style died. He doesn’t have the big box office stats on paper that helps the older candidates, only a bunch of in-ring doing stuff that nobody does today. As a worker, within his style, he was the best. And he was a star, did reasonably well in MMA, and was protected poorly in booking. He gets votes, but he’s no longer a strong candidate to get in based on the last few years of elections.

Akira Taue - Back on the ballot. Taue was a star who headlined a lot of big shows, and was involved in some of the best matches of his era. While he was the fourth wheel in some of them, he had great singles matches at times. The negative is in Japan, he’s not seen as a star the level of Hall of Fame guys. His retirement paled in comparison of interest to guys like Muto or Chono, let alone Kobashi. He had more great matches, mostly tags, of anyone not in. He had a one year nostalgia run in NOAH, but most of his NOAH career was just as a guy who used to headline working the mid-card comedy oriented matches. When he just retired, it was a retirement ceremony not like a Hall of Famer but like a star a level below.

[Dylan Waco]

I already said this at the board, but Patera's peak really wasn't 80-84. It as 77-81, maybe 76-82 depending on how you want to measure things.

 

Also while I understand the JYD and Kerry comparison and think it works on some levels, I ultimately think it falls flat because while JYD was the driving force for change in Mid-South, it was the Birds that changed thinks in Texas

[Matt D]

My main take away from all of that is that the WON HOF is a pain in the ass.

[Childs]

My main take away from all of that is that the WON HOF is a pain in the ass.

 

Amen.

[JerryvonKramer]

Wow, he put Ivan over huge there.

[shoe]

The 1st 3 sentences in the Lesnar breakdown shows a real inconsistency. Dave needs to establish if MMA counts or it doesn't. In my opinion it shouldn't . Especially since the Oberver awards are separated by match of the year and fight of the year.

[Dylan Waco]

Worth noting the HOF piece itself is much longer than this and includes some interesting insights into the way Dave thinks about his own HOF.

 

He did mention that he's putting Rocky Johnson and Bob Ellis back on the ballot next year based on his research. Dave is enamored with Johnson or it seems that way, but I don't see him as anything special as a candidate. Ellis I actually researched a bit myself fairly recently and he's someone I would at least consider and include a good re-addition. Still Dave didn't seem in a hurry to add Bearcat Wright to the ballot despite putting him over some in his research notes and that bothered me. On the surface level Wright strikes me as an easily better candidate than Johnson and probably at least as good a candidate as Ellis.

 

The Johnny Weaver and George Becker team also came out looking good in his research, though I don't think he went into any detail on them in his write-up. That bothered me to. To me Weaver and Becker really should be in over any MACW team. Part of that might be bias based on the perception that was sold to me of them as a kid, but my own research and looking at the little bit Dave compiled makes me think that my gut is right here. I know for a fact that they held attendance and gate records for main events in several South Carolina towns including Charleston for long periods of time, and if you believe some people this wasn't even their hottest area in the region.

 

I also thought Dave's comments on The Andersons were interesting. He's said this before, but he basically said again that Ole should really be on the ballot solo, but voters pushed for the team so that's the way Dave went. I'm skeptical of that because I don't know how much voters input and influence there was back in 99 when they first appeared as a team, but Dave does go on to make a very reasonable case that Ole should be on the ballot as a single. This made me wonder whether or not Dave would put Ole on the ballot as a single if The Anderson fell off. I kind of think he would, which is an interesting back door loophole if the 15 year rule kills them.

 

One final note. You might get the feeling from reading the Ole stuff that Dave is remaining firm on the idea that guys can't be in twice, and that no one is getting in as a single and a tag or in two tags (as Stan Lane would if the Fabs were to be put on the ballot and get in). But I don't know about this. When talking about Taue he had a line about not really thinking Taue was an HOF singles, but thinking Kawada and Taue had a really good case as a team. This got me thinking that maybe it's time to lobby for them as a team as a way to break down that wall.

[kjh]

I mentioned this on Twitter, but Dave predicting that Edge could become the modern Murdoch candidate (where his peers all vote for him, but is shut out of the Hall Of Fame by not getting votes in other groups) was really odd when wrestlers have never voted for Edge all that highly, outside of getting a post retirement sympathy bump. I know Dave is high on him as a worker, but it's clear that's not held as a universal belief within the industry. Really, Daniel Bryan is probably the closest comparison to Murdoch in the current scene, and he'll likely get in quickly as soon as he's old enough.

 

Regarding Bearcat Wright, he seems to be really hurt by refusing to drop and then fleeing with the WWA World Heavyweight Championship in December 1963. Which is a bit ironic given that no-one holds Lesnar walking out on a WWE contract and New Japan without dropping the IWGP strap against him as a candidate (or Steve Austin refusing to job to Lesnar on TV and walking out on the company). It seems like history paints Wright as being clearly in the wrong, but I'd like to see that probed in greater detail. He clearly was a great draw in Los Angeles at the time. Was this a racially motivated move because they didn't want their World title on a black man for too long? Or was he cooling off as a draw and it was time to go in a new direction on top? I know Loss once said that a Hall Of Fame isn't a place to right wrongs, but in Wright's case I'm not sure about that.

[soup23]

I know I have spent a lot of time championing for Taue but the retirement ceremony as a talking point seems odd. It would be like discarding Patera for his 88 WWF run. I know stature is seen differently in their culture but perhaps someone with better knowledge (OJ perhaps?) can comment on how big a factor this would really play into the mindset of voters from that region.

 

I also completely disagree with Brock as a draw without the MMA stuff and don't know what he could be pointing to there. He has raised SummerSlam one year and one B show PPV, how this equates to an established time on top, I'll never know.

[Matt D]

Business was actively down in 02-03-04 right? Anecdotally, I know I went to my only MSG show in 03 and we got great seats because they were way marked down for the show. He was on top vs Taker.

[Dylan Waco]

The more I think about Brock, the more of a joke I think he is as a candidate. What bothers me most about him is that he comes across as a guy that people see as a great candidate because they have an idea of what he is and/or should be and they are voting on that idea and not the facts.

 

On Bearcat Wright I generally have the same feelings as Keith. I think it's funny that Brody is often heralded by people (and at times even Dave) for not letting promoters screw him, and protecting his name and stardom, but Bearcat is presented as a piece of shit who did wrong by the business. Given the state and culture in wrestling at the time, I would actually be stunned if he wasn't discriminated against or at the very least if his attitude issues weren't inflated in ways that whites wouldn't have been. I'm not absolutely positive I would vote for him, but he has a surface level resume that is very impressive. The Chicago gates are very hard to ignore

[JerryvonKramer]

How did Bearcat draw in Florida, do we know?

[goc]

I'm about a big of a Brock Lesnar mark as there is, but I don't see how he is a Hall of Famer. MAYBE in an MMA HOF due to how great of a draw he was and you could argue he brought a whole new audience to MMA but he shouldn't sniff a pro wrestling hall of fame even if he is one of my favorite wrestlers ever.

[KrisZ]

Between reading Dave's Murdoch obit and other times he has talked about him at HOF time it kinda amazes me how he didn't get in during the first couple of years.

[goodhelmet]

Dave even admitted that his time in Japan hurt his runs in other territories. What is crazy is that if he is one of the top gaigin of all time, why isn't he in the Japanese category? Like we said on the show and this thread, it speaks more about the problem with categories than it does the wrestlers.

[ohtani's jacket]

Somebody asked me recently if Sangre Chicana belongs in the HOF. Is there a reason why he's never been on the ballot?

[ohtani's jacket]

I know I have spent a lot of time championing for Taue but the retirement ceremony as a talking point seems odd. It would be like discarding Patera for his 88 WWF run. I know stature is seen differently in their culture but perhaps someone with better knowledge (OJ perhaps?) can comment on how big a factor this would really play into the mindset of voters from that region.

 

I think it was just Dave's way of highlighting that Taue wasn't as big a star as the other three or the New Japan guys, which he wasn't. I don't think anything pertaining to the retirement ceremony itself will play a factor in Japanese voters' decisions.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

Incidentally those Bruno houses are generally brought up as a knock against Bruno that he wasn't a draw outside of the North East (eg by people like Matysik)

A knock in what respect? Matysik ranked Bruno as the fifth-greatest wrestler of all time in his book, so he couldn't have been too hard on him.

 

This was in those 57talk.com booking sheets. Larry makes the point pretty much any time Bruno comes to town that he wasn't a draw in St. Louis.

 

I suppose it comes across less like a knock on Bruno and more as part of Matysik's general "St. Louis was the most important wrestling town on earth" narrative. I'd say his tone with that Bruno stuff generally is to imply something like "he may have been in a star in New York [where they like big men], but he wasn't here in St. Louis [where they demanded only the very best wrestling]" Or something like that.

 

Also, in that Top 50 book, I often get the impression that with some entries Matysik is just trying to come across as being "objective" in some way, despite some of his clear biases. The Bruno entry is almost certainly one of those, it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb like some of his modern entries, but you can tell it's a bit grudging.

[elliott]

Somebody asked me recently if Sangre Chicana belongs in the HOF. Is there a reason why he's never been on the ballot?

 

Since this was me, I figured instead of bombarding OJ's PM with questions I'd ask them here and see if anyone else has info to add.

 

First, I agree about waiting for other Lucha guys to go in first before making any sort of push for him.

 

Would you say Chicana is the best candidate from the late 70s-early 80s Mexico not already in or on the ballot (this was Villano III's peak as well right?), or would it be someone like Fishman or someone else even?

 

In the Lucha History lessons you said "It was either a talent sharing arrangement between EMLL and the UWA or Chicana was working as an independent, but in any event he was everywhere in the early 80s." What other major stars bounced back and forth or seemingly worked as an independent like this?

 

When would you say is Chicana's peak as a star? I guess when would the bulk of his HOF case take place? I assume it wouldn't start any earlier than the 44th anniversary show in 1976, but how far into the 80s would it go? Obviously at least to 1984 when CMLL ran the Chicana/MS-1 match for the second straight year at the anniversary show.

 

Who else from the late 70s/early 80s would be the top candidates from Lucha?

[kjh]

 

I know I have spent a lot of time championing for Taue but the retirement ceremony as a talking point seems odd. It would be like discarding Patera for his 88 WWF run. I know stature is seen differently in their culture but perhaps someone with better knowledge (OJ perhaps?) can comment on how big a factor this would really play into the mindset of voters from that region.

 

I think it was just Dave's way of highlighting that Taue wasn't as big a star as the other three or the New Japan guys, which he wasn't. I don't think anything pertaining to the retirement ceremony itself will play a factor in Japanese voters' decisions.

 

 

It was still an odd talking point the way he put it, as Muto hasn't officially retired yet, nor has Chono.

[funkdoc]

The more I think about Brock, the more of a joke I think he is as a candidate. What bothers me most about him is that he comes across as a guy that people see as a great candidate because they have an idea of what he is and/or should be and they are voting on that idea and not the facts.

 

i just came up with this in the meltzer thread, but i think brock in a wrestling HOF would be pretty much like bo jackson getting into the pro football HOF