Kenta Kobashi

[Tetsujin]

I talked about this in the GWE forum, but I think Kobashi has become the most popular and fan favourite of the Pillars (rightfully so, imo) since 2016, so now I guess he might have a stronger chance to be #1 than ever. He's in fact my current #1, and I can only see Danielson, Liger and Bockwinkel challenging him for the top spot in my list. But we still have five more years, so who knows. Don't think he'll be out of my top 5.

[Tetsujin]

I talked about this in the GWE forum, but I think Kobashi has become the most popular and fan favourite of the Pillars (rightfully so, imo) since 2016, so now I guess he might have a stronger chance to be #1 than ever. He's in fact my current #1, and I can only see Danielson, Liger and Bockwinkel challenging him for the top spot in my list. But we still have five more years, so who knows. Don't think he'll be out of my top 5.

[Cap]

Yeah... 5 years is a long time. I remember in the 2016 project I felt weird having Kobashi as my #1. I certainly wasn't alone, but it felt like there were more vocal champions for the other pillars and that often came in the form of discourse that felt strangely anti-kobashi. I was dropping into these conversations out of nowhere so I didn't have the long history and background of discussion on the matter. In a vacuum it felt weird and for a minute I thought I was missing something haha.  It does feel a little like Kobashi is sort of positioned as the default 1 among the pillars right now, at least int he circles I frequent, but that is far from set in stone.

I suspect the pillars conversations will ebb and flow. Some of it will be because Kobashi (and at least Misawa and Kawada, but probably Taue and Akyama as well) is going to face a lot of scrutiny as a #1 contender. Some of it will be because each has their champions and compelling cases will be made. Some of it will be because there is 5 freaking years haha. 

As I am typing this I can't help but wonder how the direct comparisons help or hurt their cases. Obviously much of each man's case is built on matches with each other, but it is so hard to talk about Kobashi without comparing him to the other pillars (who are all different but are all high bars for comparison).  I'm sure that was talked to death last time as well though.

 

[ohtani's jacket]

I really hate the concept of Shitenno, which Western fans refer to as the Four Pillars. Don't get me started on King's Road. I think it's fairly simple. In the 90s, Misawa was the best. In the 00s, Kobashi was the best. 

[elliott]

I ranked Kenta Kobashi 35th in 2016 and I feel fine with that. I think Kobashi is really awesome up through like 1994 and then he's hit or miss for me. WHen he hits, he really hits like few others. But when he doesn't I can't stand him. But he's always busting his ass.  He's weird. I dunno what I'm gonna do with him. 

[KinchStalker]

I don't wish to derail this thread too much, but OJ has a point. This isn't to say that 90s AJPW booking lacked its distinctive qualities, but Shitenno puroresu and oudou were marketing (or at least journalistic) terms first and foremost, just as "strong style" had been. I know that Tarzan Yamamoto (for those who don't know, the Weekly Pro Wrestling editor-in-chief who offered his services as a creative consultant to Baba) is cited specifically for propagating the former. The story that I've read is that Shitenno (which I'm presuming is just a standard cultural allusion, just as we might use "Big Four" - hell, I've seen Chosedaigun, which we know as Super Generation Army, used in Japanese articles to refer to baseball players, so that probably wasn't special either) was popularized after 1993.05.21, when all four went over the "gaijin Shitenno" in singles matches (Taue def Spivey, Kobashi def Gordy, Kawada def Williams, Misawa def Hansen). And there's a roster photo from 1996 where everyone has "King's Road" patches on their tracksuit jackets.

Again, this doesn't mean that their product was not distinct. But I think that people can get carried away with the oudou talking points to imply certain things that weren't necessarily the case. I'm sure that Kawada's choker reputation did indeed end up biting the company in the ass when he finally went over Misawa. But as satisfying as the moments when Kawada triumphed against him might have been, implying that oudou was leading to a point where he was going to be number one for an extended period doesn't ring true to me. Tenryu may very well have gotten the Triple Crown once or twice more had he stayed, but he and Jumbo were booked as a pair, not as one man eventually overtaking the other on some relay race to carry the company along the King's Road. And in that pair, Tenryu was the underneath, just as Kawada would be.

[MoS]

On 4/28/2021 at 11:05 AM, ohtani's jacket said:

I really hate the concept of Shitenno, which Western fans refer to as the Four Pillars. Don't get me started on King's Road. I think it's fairly simple. In the 90s, Misawa was the best. In the 00s, Kobashi was the best. 

Can you please elaborate on this? Was it something that was not felt that way in Japan?

[KinchStalker]

4 minutes ago, MoS said:

Can you please elaborate on this? Was it something that was not felt that way in Japan?

A few years ago I know OJ commented on how the "chase" narrative Western fans applied to Kawada w/r/t Misawa was not shared among the native fanbase. I specifically recall him bringing up Bret and Owen as the closest Western equivalent he could think of for what the story was intended as.

[NintendoLogic]

The term shitenno literally translates as Four Heavenly Kings and refers to the Buddhist deities who watch over each of the world's cardinal directions. In a colloquial sense, it refers to the "big four" of any given field. The All Japan crew aren't the only wrestling quartet to be given that name. In the 1960s, Giant Baba, Antonio Inoki, Kintaro Oki, and Michiaki Yoshimura were the shitenno of the JWA. And in 2004, Genichiro Tenryu, Yoshihiro Takayama, Minoru Suzuki, and Kensuke Sasaki were known as the gaiteki (outside invader) shitenno because they were all freelancers working in New Japan.

[MoS]

19 minutes ago, KinchStalker said:

A few years ago I know OJ commented on how the "chase" narrative Western fans applied to Kawada w/r/t Misawa was not shared among the native fanbase. I specifically recall him bringing up Bret and Owen as the closest Western equivalent he could think of for what the story was intended as.

I get that, but the concept of 4 main guys being the head AND soul of the promotion would still apply. I don't know if it's about how in the context of US wrestling promotions, we think of eras as defined by a select group of guys for the most part, versus puro (or at least AJPW/NOAH) focusing on the ace. But even NJPW had the three musketeers

[ohtani's jacket]

2 hours ago, MoS said:

Can you please elaborate on this? Was it something that was not felt that way in Japan?

I just think it's an overused metaphor. You can have Shintenno for pretty much anything at this point. I think people get carried away with it when describing the All Japan guys, I guess because it sounds cool. They were called Shitenno by fans and media, and their style of wrestling was referred to as Shintenno Pro-Wrestling, so it's not wrong. I just think it's something people shouldn't be overly reverent about. Shintenno gets used in the entertainment business all the time. There are Shintenno for everything from impersonators to karaoke singers. I don't know when people first started using the term in English to describe the All Japan guys. I don't understand where they got the word pillar from, but I guess it's part of the vernacular now. 

[elliott]

I just assumed it was because it was easier than just saying Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi & Taue every single time. "PIllars" is just quicker. I dunno where it came from. No one was saying that back in the early 2000s and then I went on a wrestling sabbatical and when I came back they were the "4 Pillars" and everyone thought Undertaker was a super worker and HHH was gonna save the future of wrestling. It was really weird. 

Anyway. 

I really like the Kobashi vs Taue matchup. I feel like its the least talked about matchup between...uh...those 4 dudes   but I really dig their big matches. 

[strobogo]

Undertaker was a super worker specifically in 2002-2003, though. I don't know when there was a point outside of 2000-the quad tear in 2001 that anyone would have ever had something like that to say about HHH, though.

[elliott]

It was related to NXT

[strobogo]

Well then the Undertaker is a super worker talk makes even less sense 

[KinchStalker]

When Akiyama got his push in the late 90s the term actually shifted to Gotsuyo, or "Five Strengths", but that never spread.

[JerryvonKramer]

I’m pretty sure that the four bosses of Street Fighter 2 (Balrog, Vega, Sagat, and Bison) were referred to as “the four heavenly kings” and now it all makes sense. 

[Cap]

I find a lot of the details above interesting, but I have never really thought of the concept as having a particular narrative or dynamic inherent to it. I've always just used it and thought if it as a shortcut to refer to how intertwined they are in general discourse about each.  It is hard to think/talk about the career or Kobashi without thinking/talking about and in turn comparing him to Misawa, Taue, and Kawada. It is hard to think/talk about the career of Kawada without.... you get the point. There probably is too much emphasis on that, but that does seem to be a hard to shake.

[Boss Rock]

1 hour ago, elliott said:

I really like the Kobashi vs Taue matchup. I feel like its the least talked about matchup between...uh...those 4 dudes   but I really dig their big matches. 

Both the 7/24/1995 match and when Kobashi won his first Triple Crown are terrific. Their NOAH match for the GHC title is very good as well if not on the level of their previous matches. I agree that they were a super underrated pairing.

[Kadaveri]

I appear to be an outlier on this but my favourite Kobashi vs. Taue match is the 03/21/95 Carnival match. It really boosts the narrative of Taue realising "Hang on a minute. I'm a giant. I should just destroy everyone!" and then going through the tournament wrecking everyone.

[KB8]

I had Kobashi at number 22 in 2016. He'll most likely drop a bit in 2026, but not too far. I'd guess he'll finish around the #30 spot rather than the #20 spot. Look, I have nothing new to add on Kobashi at this stage of the game. People much smarter than me have written many millions of words about him for the last 20-odd years. He's great but not a favourite and he has some tendencies that I don't like, but at the end of the day he probably has as many great matches on tape as anybody in the history of wrestling. He's Kobashi and you know the drill. 

 

KENTA KOBASHI YOU SHOULD WATCH:

w/Jumbo Tsuruta v Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (All Japan, 7/15/89)

w/Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada v Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi (All Japan, 10/19/90)

v Stan Hansen (All Japan, 9/4/91)

w/Tsuyoshi Kikuchi v Cam-Am Express (All Japan, 5/25/92)

v Stan Hansen (All Japan, 7/29/93)

w/Mitsuharu Misawa v Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (All Japan, 12/3/93)

w/Mitsuharu Misawa v Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (All Japan, 5/21/94)

w/Mitsuharu Misawa v Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (All Japan, 6/9/95)

v Mitsuharu Misawa (All Japan, 1/20/97)

v Jun Akiyama (All Japan, 7/24/98)

w/Jun Akiyama v Stan Hansen & Vader (All Japan, 12/5/98)

v Tamon Honda (NOAH, 4/13/03)

v Yoshihiro Takayama (NOAH, 4/25/04)

w/Go Shiozaki v Genichiro Tenryu & Jun Akiyama (NOAH, 4/25/05)

v Kensuke Sasaki (NOAH, 7/18/05)

[Tawren]

I don't see Kobashi finishing outside of my top 10, but I don't know if I have an answer yet for where I will rank him vs Misawa or Kawada. I don't think he is in my conversation for my #1. His best matches are obviously an all time resume, but as his body breaks down he probably doesn't have as deep of a resume as Misawa.

 

It's fun to read through the ebbs and flows of Western smark appreciation for Kobashi over the years. His stock rises and falls much more than Misawa does.