ohtani's jacket Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 I wasn't really referring to his character but his work. I don't think he's anywhere near as assured in the ring in the Mid-Atlantic footage as he would become later even when the shtick is the same. He wrestles like a United States champion as opposed to a Wotld champion. That was the impression I got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 I agree with that as it happens. He also used many more moves when he was younger and slowly pared it back as the 80s progress. Of course, he'd continue to pare back until we're just left with the low blow, but let's not talk about that. I'd like to see more Mid-Atlantic from before 83. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 Reign number three is the whopper for me. It was the longest run he had as NWA champ (2+ years) and while it's not something said very often about him, I thought for years that Ric Flair's 1985 was the best year a wrestler had ever had. I have seen far more stuff since and I'm not sure I still feel that way, but it is absolutely a year still in the conversation. This is where I truly think Flair becomes a GOAT contender - maybe not the runaway number one he'd eventually be considered by many, but by now, he is firmly in the conversation. I'll put my favorite matches in blue again. 16 days and no title (05/07/84 - 05/23/84) Flair does a few clean jobs in the window between title reigns. Ric Flair vs Michael Hayes (05/07/84, WCCW) Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich (05/11/84, WCCW) Ric Flair vs Harley Race (05/22/84, AJPW) World title reign #3 (05/24/84 - 07/26/86) Winning and losing the title Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich (05/24/84, AJPW) Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (07/26/86, JCP, Cage Match) All Japan Ric Flair vs Genichiro Tenryu (09/12/84) Ric Flair vs Riki Choshu (04/23/85) Ric Flair vs Jumbo Tsuruta (04/24/85) Ric Flair vs Jumbo Tsuruta (10/19/85) Ric Flair vs Rick Martel (10/21/85) Ric Flair & Rick Martel vs Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu (10/22/85) AWA Ric Flair vs Magnum TA (09/28/85) Ric Flair vs Nick Bockwinkel (01/16/86) Central States Ric Flair vs Harley Race (07/19/84) Florida Ric Flair vs Scott McGhee (10/28/84) Ric Flair vs Wahoo McDaniel (09/02/85) - Battle of the Belts I Ric Flair vs Barry Windham (02/14/86) - Battle of the Belts II Georgia Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (06/16/84) Hawaii Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich (02/13/85) - 60 minute draw Memphis Ric Flair vs Koko Ware (11/18/85) Mid Atlantic Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat (05/29/84) - Big Meadowlands show Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (11/22/84) - Starrcade Ric Flair vs Magnum TA (06/15/85) - 10-minute challenge from TBS Ric Flair vs Nikita Koloff (07/06/85) - Great American Bash Ric Flair vs Nikita Koloff (08/11/85) - Omni Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (11/28/85) - Starrcade Ric Flair, Arn & Ole Anderson vs Magnum TA, Dusty Rhodes & Manny Fernandez (12/15/85) - TV Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (12/28/85) - TBS TV Ric Flair & Tully Blanchard vs Dusty Rhodes & Magnum TA (12/28/85) - Handheld Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (01/04/86) - Handheld Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (02/02/86) - Superstars on the Superstation Ric Flair & Arn Anderson vs Ron Garvin & Dusty Rhodes (02/22/86) - TV Ric Flair vs Magnum TA (02/23/86) - TV, World Pro Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (03/09/86) - Handheld, Matinee Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (03/09/86) - Handheld, Evening Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (03/30/86) - Handheld, Cage Match Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (04/04/86) - Handheld Ric Flair & Tully Blanchard vs Dusty Rhodes & Wahoo McDaniel (April 1986) - Handheld, Bullrope Match Ric Flair vs Ricky Morton (04/12/86) - TBS TV Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (04/19/86) - Crockett Cup Ric Flair vs Ricky Morton (05/10/86) - TV, First 15 minutes made air Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (05/24/86) Ric Flair vs Robert Gibson (05/25/86) - TV, World Pro I believe Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (06/07/86) - TV Ric Flair vs Ricky Morton (June 1986) - Handheld, 35 minutes of 60 minute draw Ric Flair vs Road Warrior Hawk (07/01/86) - Bash Ric Flair vs Ricky Morton (07/05/86) - Bash, Cage match from Horsemen DVD Ric Flair vs Ricky Morton (07/11/86) - Bash, Cage match from World Pro TV Mid South Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich (08/24/84) Ric Flair vs Magnum TA (12/02/84) - Matinee Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich (12/02/84) - Evening Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich (04/27/85) Ric Flair vs Terry Taylor (04/28/85) Ric Flair vs Terry Taylor (05/03/85) - Houston Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich (05/04/85) Ric Flair vs Terry Taylor (06/01/85) - Superdome Ric Flair vs Butch Reed (06/24/85) - Superdome Ric Flair vs Wahoo McDaniel (07/26/85) - Houston Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (07/27/85) Ric Flair vs Butch Reed (08/10/85) - 60-minute draw Ric Flair vs Butch Reed (10/11/85) Ric Flair vs Butch Reed (11/06/85 taped) - TV Ric Flair vs Ted DiBiase (11/06/85 taped) - TV Ric Flair vs Jake Roberts (11/24/85) Ric Flair & Dick Slater vs Butch Reed & Jake Roberts (12/18/85) - TV Puerto Rico Ric Flair vs Hercules Ayala (09/21/85) Portland Ric Flair vs Billy Jack Haynes (10/20/84) Ric Flair vs Billy Jack Haynes (05/21/85) Ric Flair vs Magnum TA (09/24/85) PWUSA Ric Flair vs Harley Race (02/24/85) - Meadowlands show St. Louis Ric Flair vs Bruiser Brody (11/16/84) Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich (01/25/85) Ric Flair vs Kevin Von Erich (05/12/85) World Class Ric Flair vs Chris Adams (11/09/84) Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich (12/25/84) Ric Flair vs Terry Gordy (01/11/85) Ric Flair vs Kevin Von Erich (05/05/85) - Parade of Champions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 Even the people who are heavily criticizing Flair are most likely still going to have him in their top ten so there's no reason to get too worked up about it. When factoring out who is number one, competition gets really tight and you've got to take every thing into account. To the people who brought up Michael Jordan; yeah the Wizards years aren't counted against him, but if Jordan had spent 12+ years of his career playing with them then they definitely would have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 If I win $50 million and get reunited with long lost friends before noon, but get accidentally run over by said long lost friend and hospitalized with a broken ankle at 4:00 in the afternoon, did I have the best day of my life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 Possibly, you might be a pessimist and dwell too much on the foot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 We have a lot of dwelling on the foot in this thread. I don't want to ignore the foot pain, but let's count our millions for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 Do either of the two Butch Reed title matches exist in full? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 Yes, they both do. There's also one from Florida a few years earlier that I think I skipped when recapping his first reign because I couldn't confirm the date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 There are very few wrestlers if any that have ever had as good a year as Ric Flair did in 1985. He was putting on a master class on how to be the World Heavyweight Champion that year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 But when it comes to comparing the best days ever, there's that other guy who had almost the exact same day minus the foot injury and plus he met his future wife. Man, that's got to be THE best day ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 He went to bed at 2:00 in the afternoon, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 How much is that $50 million really worth after taxes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 Is not the problem, Loss, that, at this point, people have to argue Flair out of the #1 spot (well, certainly out of a Top 10 spot, though I'd imagine most people will have him at least that high) rather than for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 Some of the problem is that it takes a long time to watch a lot of Ric Flair matches. I put him at the top of my priorities, but even in what I've been able to watch in the last week, I ended up with clipped versions of long matches and I've only made it through even four of those, because I have so much else to watch, so I've got a ways to go. The argument ought to be more interesting in two years after everyone's revisited the things on the list that Loss has posted. Right now mostly everyone just has incomplete notions to work off of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 Is not the problem, Loss, that, at this point, people have to argue Flair out of the #1 spot (well, certainly out of a Top 10 spot, though I'd imagine most people will have him at least that high) rather than for it? I don't think everyone has them in their de facto number one spot, nor do I think he has to be in that spot on everybody's list. I do think his case gets taken for granted though, so I'm trying to go through it so people realize he had a case even before the Steamboat or Windham series ever happened, and that's usually where his hat is hung. If I wasn't trying to finish an e-book in this lifetime, I'd take the time to review each individual match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 How much is that $50 million really worth after taxes? A lot more than the $30 million the other guy made in his best day ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 But when it comes to comparing the best days ever, there's that other guy who had almost the exact same day minus the foot injury and plus he met his future wife. Man, that's got to be THE best day ever. Here's a question though: who did have a career comparable to Flair? Jack Brisco was NWA champion for 2 years and was so burnt out that he literally couldn't continue in the role. Terry Funk has said that the toll from being on the road as traveling champ was something he couldn't have done for much longer than he did. Flair did it arguably for 10 years, and definitely for 6. Dory Funk Jr and Jack Brisco were both "pure wrestlers", insomuch as they carried the title primarily in terms of being credible guys. Those two were not the most charismatic guys in the world, and they drew based mainly on the idea that they were the best wrestlers in the world and because they were champ. Flair did that. Terry Funk and Harley Race had more charisma and character. They relied on it as much as they relied on credibility. They would go into towns and bump around against local heroes, getting involved in short-term angles, cutting promos and so on while they were in the territory. Flair did that. If you stop his career right at the start of 1986, you could argue that Flair had equaled or bettered each of the previous four NWA champions in their own areas of strength. He had the wrestling ability and credibility of Dory Jr/ Brisco; he had the charisma and crowd control of Funk; he had the bumping and stooging abilities of Harley Race. It's almost like the evolution of what the NWA champion should be led directly to what Flair was. This is without going into 87-9 or anything he did in the 90s. The question is: who else had "the exact same day" as that? Who else even had a day that is remotely comparable to that? That's the question to focus on first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 Loss their is another match you can add to your list. It's 6/24/85 from New Orleans. It was supposed to go on the Mid-South 80's but was accidently left off. This is what I said about it in the nominating process. It's another Flair and Reed match and I decided to nominate it. This match was the appetiser to set up the big one in the Supdome. Both guys work a pretty good match here. Reed's early arm work on Flair was really cool. At one point Reed had Flair in a hammerlock and was lifting Flair in the air. This was similar to Steamboat's double arm chicken wing in 89 except Reed was using one arm. I loved how Reed when he came out of the corner he would cover up like a boxer. Flair drops a beutiful looking knee drop on Reed's head. Flair also uses a nasty looking belly to back suplex on Reed. Flair also does a nice job working Reed's leg. Flair's stomps on Reed's knee looked so painful. The finish was what it was, but I loved how the camera followed Reed to the back where you got to see Reed bitching at the ref.That was cool because athletes all the time bitch at refs, or umps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 Done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 I don't think too many people here would dispute that Flair was the greatest NWA champion of all time. The question is whether that translates to greatest wrestler of all time, especially if you consider the NWA touring champ style to be deeply flawed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 Title reign number four is when Flair became more of a company champion instead of the traveling NWA champ. He still had moments where he did go outside of JCP to defend the title, but they were far more rare. Baba was using Flair less and the NWA was falling apart, so he's mostly champion of one company by this time. I will also point out something about this time period that is forgotten. Flair was wrestling on a broken neck for a few months. The break wasn't severe enough that he couldn't wrestle, but it was bad enough that he needed to wrestle mostly tag matches and not do a marathon of defenses over the Great American Bash like he did in 1986. Two whole weeks and no title (07/27/86-08/08/86) Ric Flair, Arn & Ole Anderson vs Rock & Roll Express & Magnum TA (08/03/86) - World Pro, Elimination Match Title reign #4 (08/09/86-09/25/87) Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (08/09/86) - Flair title win, not available in full but seems to be more angle-driven Ric Flair vs Nikita Koloff (11/27/86) - Starrcade Ric Flair vs Nikita Koloff (01/04/87) Ric Flair vs Barry Windham (01/13/87) - Impromptu match Ric Flair vs Nikita Koloff (01/17/87) - Supertowns on the Superstation Ric Flair vs Barry Windham (01/20/87) - Worldwide, TV time limit draw Ric Flair vs Barry Windham (04/11/87) - Crockett Cup. I suggest everyone watch the full handheld version, as the comm release doesn't do this match justice. Ric Flair vs Jimmy Garvin (07/11/87) - Great American Bash cage match Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (09/25/87) - Cage match from WWW. Flair loses the title. Tag matches & Multi-Mans Ric Flair & Tully Blanchard vs Dusty Rhodes & Nikita Koloff (11/08/86) Ric Flair, Arn & Ole Anderson vs Rock & Roll Express & Dusty Rhodes (Dec 1986) - Cage Match Ric Flair & Lex Luger vs Dusty Rhodes & Nikita Koloff (05/23/87) - TV Ric Flair & Lex Luger vs Ron & Jimmy Garvin (06/25/87) - TBS TV War Games (07/04/87) Four Horsemen vs Road Warriors, Dusty Rhodes & Nikita Koloff (07/10/87) - Handheld, Non-War Games 8-man tag War Games II (07/31/87, Miami) Momentary departures from JCP Ric Flair vs Steve Keirn (08/13/86, Florida) Ric Flair vs Lex Luger (09/01/86, Florida) - Battle of the Belts III, 2/3 falls, first Flair-Luger match Ric Flair vs Miguel Perez (09/20/86, Puerto Rico) Ric Flair vs Invader I (09/21/86, Puerto Rico) Ric Flair vs Yoshiaki Yatsu (03/07/87, AJPW) Ric Flair vs Tiger Mask (Misawa) (03/09/87, AJPW) - Not sure if this is available in full Ric Flair vs Jumbo Tsuruta (03/10/87, AJPW) Ric Flair vs Hiroshi Wajima (03/12/87, AJPW) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 If Flair can generate more thread responses than the rest of the field combined, would that also be a feather in his GOAT cap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 No, it would just reinforce the problem that he has had with perception... he never goes away long enough for us to miss him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 As Matt has pointed out, all things need room/time to breathe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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