Ric Flair

[Exposer]

#1 contender. I don't know if there's a single wrestler who worked primarily in the states that is better. Funk and Hansen are contenders against him but they both were in Japan for long periods of time. Flair will be on my list.

[thebrainfollower]

Flair's great matches do take a nosedive in 87 but to me that's more because he's now working one territory against a much less interesting variety of opponents. To what extent did that affect his decline if any? It's (to use this movie comparison everyone hates) an actor decides or is forced to work with just one or two directors in one genre with a handful of the same co-stars. I work for the same theater company mostly but always try and do other stuff and bring in new people because even though I feel like I'm on an acting high/directing high in the last two years, I need new people to freshen me up.

But Flair didn't have that kind of control over his career at that point which is not really his fault.

 

Had no idea how much 3rd title run Flair was out there that I had not seen. Got my work cut out for me.

 

How much does Flair's career going a decade after his prime relate to his financial choices? Was he staying because he wanted to or had to?

[TRMD]

Just watched Flar/Luger at Starrcade '88 and boy was it great. Jr and Lex himself did a great job of making Lex look like a million bucks, but Flair made him look like 100 million. Flair taunting Luger in the first 3 minutes was pure gold . And his dismantling of Lugers knee was grade A. Excellent stuff from Flair in this one.

[Timbo Slice]

I actually went back through the entire Luger series and even with the two great Windham matches and the Steamboat series, I'm not sure there's a better representation of what Flair was than those matches with Luger. All of them were just terrific matches and Flair's heeling was some of the best I've ever seen.

[Alan4L]

I have loads of Flair to watch/rewatch and am going to have as open a mind as possible, but historically I haven't loved his most hyped stuff as much as others. I think it's going to be very hard for him to overtake a Kobashi or a Danielson for my top spot. His ceiling for me is probably 3. Not sure what his floor will be. Hard to imagine it being lower than top 15 though.

[GOTNW]

The more Flair I watch the less enamored I am with him. As I've been exploring the DVDVR 80s lists I often find myself completely apathetic to his matches that finished fairly high. I love the Steamboat series and his Onita cosplay but aside from that his work seems mostly obsolete.

[JerryvonKramer]

Don't really like where you're going with the use of the word "obsolete".

[GOTNW]

 

Don't really like where you're going with the use of the word "obsolete".

Please elaborate on what you mean by that.

[JerryvonKramer]

The word "obselete" has built into it some theory of progress and of things becoming better. You seem to be suggesting that something about Flair's way of working is now out-moded and has been surpassed by subsequent generations of workers.

 

I don't think anyone would have to think too hard about how I'd react to an idea like that, let alone with Flair being the example.

[GOTNW]

It's not obsolete because wrestling itself has gotten better but because its original appeal doesn't translate well to 2015. And I'd say the same is true for Attitude Era brawls and RVD matches.

[JerryvonKramer]

Can you elaborate on that a bit now?

 

Flair's work is built a lot on letting his opponent shine and making them look good. What aspect of that doesn't translate well to 2015?

[GOTNW]

It's not very interesting. For example-I recently watched Flair vs Koko Ware. There was absolutely nothing about it I liked. Nothing. It's almost fascinating how a match can go that long without having something for me to praise or criticise. There was nothing to it. Flair did a quasi-matwork sequence that I've seen him do in almost every other match of his, did the Flair flop and probably fell off the top rope. And I don't care much for his formula. It was tehnically sound but incredibly dull and unrewarding.

[JerryvonKramer]

Try any of these and tell me what you think:

 

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Ric Flair (6/8/83)

Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (12/28/85)

Ric Flair vs. Ricky Morton (07/05/86)

Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (9/26/87)

Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger (2/25/90)

 

Also watch them all and then come back and tell me that Flair has a formula. But don't do it before you've read all posts by Loss, soup, and myself in this thread: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/18970-bret-hart-vs-ric-flair/ and all 8 pages of this: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/8647-the-flair-formula/

 

Once you've done that, if you're still not convinced, cool.

[Gregor]

If there's such a thing as critical obsolescence, then I'd like to think that the standards for it are higher than "I watched the matches and they didn't hold up."

[El-P]

his Onita cosplay

 

Hum... Flair garbage stuff wasn't like Onita *at all*. (And it was embarrasing, but that's beside the point)

[Johnny Sorrow]

How the fuck do you not love the Flair/ Koko match from Memphis? It's awesome and the story being told is fucking top knotch.

[GOTNW]

How the fuck do you not love the Flair/ Koko match from Memphis? It's awesome and the story being told is fucking top knotch.

I couldn't think of anything more worthless to say about a match than "it told a great story". It's the defence I stumbled upon when I criticized shitty matches like Lesnar-Triple H in other places. It bored me. If you think the fact there was a good guy and a bad guy makes it amazing storytelling I'm not going to waste my or your time arguing with you. There are very few matches where I'd say the narrative plays a vital part of why the match is great and absolutely nothing about Flair/Ware indicated it was contextually great like a match with "great storytelling" should be. And even if you could somehow formulate a story for that match it wouldn't mean much to me because I actively struggled to watch the whole video.

[Ricky Jackson]

So you basically hate wrestling

[GOTNW]

I love wrestling. I hate when people stick to preconceived notions that use terms that don't articulate anything. Brock Lesnar vs John Cena told a great story because it was a match that was great for its story and wouldn't be nearly as good it it had happened in a different environment with different competitors. What did Flair-Koko have that made it great storytelling?

[JerryvonKramer]

You've skipped on your homework GOTNW

Try any of these and tell me what you think:

 

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Ric Flair (6/8/83)

Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (12/28/85)

Ric Flair vs. Ricky Morton (07/05/86)

Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (9/26/87)

Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger (2/25/90)

 

Also watch them all and then come back and tell me that Flair has a formula. But don't do it before you've read all posts by Loss, soup, and myself in this thread: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/18970-bret-hart-vs-ric-flair/ and all 8 pages of this: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/8647-the-flair-formula/

 

Once you've done that, if you're still not convinced, cool.

[GOTNW]

I'd have already watched them if I wasn't busy replying to everyone who called me out (or studying for today's exam) . I'll get it done by tomorrow.

[Grimmas]

Everybody knows I'm not huge on Flair.

 

Here is the deal. He's been in more great matches than anyone. He's greatly athletic, super charismatic, one of the greatest sellers and can make everything exciting. For those reasons he will be top 10 for me easily. What keeps him from the easy spot of number one is the fact I find him a dim wrestler. He would do some great arm work, then move on to leg work for no reason. He would always try to get his spots in, whether it made sense or not. This things were not an issue when he was super athlete at the prime of his game, but they became HUGE flaws when he got older.

 

Overall two or if not all of these guys will be above him on my final poll: Stan Hansen, Terry Funk, Jerry Lawler, Jumbo Tsuruta, Toshiaki Kawada, Rey Mysterio Jr. Negro Casas, Bret Hart and Jushin Liger.

[JerryvonKramer]

Everybody knows I'm not huge on Flair.

 

Here is the deal. He's been in more great matches than anyone. He's greatly athletic, super charismatic, one of the greatest sellers and can make everything exciting. For those reasons he will be top 10 for me easily. What keeps him from the easy spot of number one is the fact I find him a dim wrestler. He would do some great arm work, then move on to leg work for no reason. He would always try to get his spots in, whether it made sense or not. This things were not an issue when he was super athlete at the prime of his game, but they became HUGE flaws when he got older.

I really do see these as lazy criticisms. Go and watch that match from Starrcade 88 where the finish is Luger buckling under Flair's weight because his legs are so fucked up he can't stand. Watch closely everything from the transition to the home straight and see how laser-like Flair's focus is on the leg. Psychology is amazing.

 

Now watch the Morton match I listed above where Morton comes in with the nose injury and count how many times Flair deviates from the core game of attacking the injured nose.

 

It's just such a lazy misnomer of a criticism. But ALSO even if it was true, there's no great crime in switching from an arm to a leg and if there is I am going to harp on it till kingdom come in every Kawada, Misawa and Kobashi match we have left to watch and ask you to justify why they they switched limbs or from the back to the arm or whatever. The idea that you work one part and one part alone is just one way of telling the story. Even the Andersons would switch up limbs.

 

I'm not saying this against you in particular Steven, but it's just really lazy criticism that doesn't bear up to any sort of scrutiny.

 

"Ah but I'm talking about Flair in 2004!!" Well fuck Flair in 2004. What difference does it make? Anything great after 1991 is a bonus. And he has more of that than most people have in their actual cases.

 

I just don't get it beyond "well Flair's the boring choice and I want to be different", which is what it boils down to. I'm not getting into it again beyond this post, said it too many times in too many places, but stuff you're coming out is some Scott Keith level stuff.

[WingedEagle]

Everybody knows I'm not huge on Flair.

 

Here is the deal. He's been in more great matches than anyone. He's greatly athletic, super charismatic, one of the greatest sellers and can make everything exciting. For those reasons he will be top 10 for me easily. What keeps him from the easy spot of number one is the fact I find him a dim wrestler. He would do some great arm work, then move on to leg work for no reason. He would always try to get his spots in, whether it made sense or not. This things were not an issue when he was super athlete at the prime of his game, but they became HUGE flaws when he got older.

 

Overall two or if not all of these guys will be above him on my final poll: Stan Hansen, Terry Funk, Jerry Lawler, Jumbo Tsuruta, Toshiaki Kawada, Rey Mysterio Jr. Negro Casas, Bret Hart and Jushin Liger.

 

What wrestler hasn't deviated from a single-minded purpose like seems to be the case against Flair here? Surely everyone you list above have plenty of matches where their offense i more than keyed in to a single body part. If Flair just doesn't click with you for some reason that's one thing, but that criticism seems to hold him to an unfair standard that should apply across the board. Never mind the fact that it would likely lead to a lot more boring, less interesting matches if each one had to follow such a strict path.

[Grimmas]

 

Everybody knows I'm not huge on Flair.

 

Here is the deal. He's been in more great matches than anyone. He's greatly athletic, super charismatic, one of the greatest sellers and can make everything exciting. For those reasons he will be top 10 for me easily. What keeps him from the easy spot of number one is the fact I find him a dim wrestler. He would do some great arm work, then move on to leg work for no reason. He would always try to get his spots in, whether it made sense or not. This things were not an issue when he was super athlete at the prime of his game, but they became HUGE flaws when he got older.

I really do see these as lazy criticisms. Go and watch that match from Starrcade 88 where the finish is Luger buckling under Flair's weight because his legs are so fucked up he can't stand. Watch closely everything from the transition to the home straight and see how laser-like Flair's focus is on the leg. Psychology is amazing.

 

Now watch the Morton match I listed above where Morton comes in with the nose injury and count how many times Flair deviates from the core game of attacking the injured nose.

 

It's just such a lazy misnomer of a criticism. But ALSO even if it was true, there's no great crime in switching from an arm to a leg and if there is I am going to harp on it till kingdom come in every Kawada, Misawa and Kobashi match we have left to watch and ask you to justify why they they switched limbs or from the back to the arm or whatever. The idea that you work one part and one part alone is just one way of telling the story. Even the Andersons would switch up limbs.

 

I'm not saying this against you in particular Steven, but it's just really lazy criticism that doesn't bear up to any sort of scrutiny.

 

"Ah but I'm talking about Flair in 2004!!" Well fuck Flair in 2004. What difference does it make? Anything great after 1991 is a bonus. And he has more of that than most people have in their actual cases.

 

I just don't get it beyond "well Flair's the boring choice and I want to be different", which is what it boils down to. I'm not getting into it again beyond this post, said it too many times in too many places, but stuff you're coming out is some Scott Keith level stuff.

 

 

It's not that it always sucks. It's not that Flair doesn't make it work in a lot of matches. It's not that it works a lot of times.

 

We are talking the greatest ever here.

 

When I am watching Ric Flair I often feel he is dumb and just doing things out there. I don't get that with the other 9 mentioned. Do the other 9 do dumb things? Of course. With those other 9 it feels like mistakes. Flair just feels dumb. The working limb was just an example of it. It might be a bias, it might be that I didn't grow up with Flair. It might be that he annoys me so much when he is out of character, but those bias I can not fight.

 

Again, easy top 10, probably top 3 for me.