Toshiaki Kawada

[soup23]

Kawada/Taue vs. Hayabusa/JInsei Shinzaki RWTL 1997

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnflw7GIqoc

 

Kawada vs. AKiyama CC 98

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi08izB3CXA

 

Kawada vs. Hase 5/2/99

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT2ZeNzfZc4

 

Kawada vs. Takayama 7/17/99

 

 

Kawada vs. Shibata 11/3/04

 

 

I think the list above displays some of the good and bad comparing Kawada to his peers. The Akiyama CC 98 match for example is a match I ranked at ***3/4 and thought it was very good. However, I have the Misawa vs. Akiyama matches from 1/98 and the CC 98 Final higher as well as the Kobashi CC98 and especially the 7/98 Triple Crown match.

 

The 5/2/99 Hase match is an even more glaring example. This was Kawada coming back from a broken forearm but this was the #2 match on a Tokyo Dome show and it was a match that I gave ***1/2 to when watching for the 99 yearbook vetting process. Charles was less enamored than me, so I went back and rewatched it and it is a highly flawed match that should be seen as a disappointment given the competitors and positioning. Akiyama for example had a much better match vs. Hase in the Tokyo Dome in 1998.

 

The Shibata/Takayama matches however are nice sprints for Kawada where he packs a ton of viciousness and intensity into a short time frame. The Shibata match in particular ranked for me when I did Ditch's 2004 list.

[JerryvonKramer]

Thanks Chad.

 

I will also ask a question: is Hase in 99 better than Lex Luger in 90?

[soup23]

Thanks Chad.

 

I will also ask a question: is Hase in 99 better than Lex Luger in 90?

 

Tough to say as Hase was deeply embedded in his Congress work by this point so the New Years Giant Series was the only tour for All Japan that he was on with sporadic appearances afterward. Cage match does have a 9/2/99 singles match vs. Taue that I don't recall seeing on tape if it did make it so that would be a comp.

 

I would probably say Luger overall was better after his heel run of 89 and finding his footing as a face in the early part of 90.

[GOTNW]

 

He needs more than Gary Albright, I want a whole list.

vs Kensuke Sasaki (big Dome match in 2000 which is one of the most pimped matches in 2000s puro), then another rematch at the Dome in 2001, a match for the Triple Crown in 2007, they had a couple of matches in 2005......

vs Hiroyoshi Tenzan, 2001, one match in All Japan, one in New Japan

vs Tenzan again in 2005(I think?) for the Triple Crown

vs Kojima 2005 for the Triple Crown

vs Morishima in 2010-they had two matches, one in the Global League which was alright and another one which was great and a total Kawada carry job

vs Akitoshi Saito in the 2010 Global League

vs Taiyo Kea in 2006 for the Triple Crown

 

I can go on but basically you're wrong. Some of these guys are better workers than others but none of them are top 10/20/30 or even 50 ever.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'd prefer 90s matches while he was at his peak. If you read over the thread, many people said he stopped caring post-2000. For various reasons, I'd rather not consider post-peak stuff right now.

[Loss]

Hase was an interesting case in that he could step away for longer and longer periods of time and usually come back and look as great as he ever did (which was pretty great) anytime he wanted. I can't think of a period in his career where he'd be below Lex Luger on his best night. The Albright match is really good for Kawada showing us what an All Japan vs UWFI match would have looked like, and I thought he did a great job combining the house style with Albright's UWFI style. I actually think Takada managed to get something even better out of Albright once, but this match is still more impressive in many ways because it seemed more improbable.

 

Kawada vs Akiyama from 7/93 is a match I'd recommend. Akiyama as we know was better than almost anyone has ever been at that experience level, but Kawada was still the one very much carrying that, and it's very good. As for other guys, I do think Kobashi was the best opponent for both Hansen and Doc. Misawa peaked higher with Taue one time, but the rest of the matches I'd put below Kawada's matches with Taue. I think Kobashi was better against Hase than Kawada, and just looking at the 1990s, I'd call Akiyama's best opponent Kobashi. Notice the name Kobashi keeps coming up. That's why I'd put him ahead of Kawada.

 

I also think the Misawa-Kobashi series is more comparable to the Flair-Steamboat series than Misawa-Kawada.

[WingedEagle]

Parv, really insightful thoughts on Kawada. I haven't been able to put down just why he's below Misawa & Kobashi for me, but your points in particular about him on the mat are spot on. All of this needs to be kept in perspective as we're talking about someone who's very likely a top 10 GOAT candidate, at worst, but looking at what distinguishes him from his peers in that category.

 

As far as his work outside of the other AJ greats, have you seen any of the Footloose tags?

[JerryvonKramer]

Parv, really insightful thoughts on Kawada. I haven't been able to put down just why he's below Misawa & Kobashi for me, but your points in particular about him on the mat are spot on. All of this needs to be kept in perspective as we're talking about someone who's very likely a top 10 GOAT candidate, at worst, but looking at what distinguishes him from his peers in that category.

 

As far as his work outside of the other AJ greats, have you seen any of the Footloose tags?

Yeah, I saw a lot of them on 80s set. I had these at 4.5:

 

Toshiaki Kawada & Ricky Fuyuki vs. Shunji Takano & Shinichi Nakano (7/19/88)

Toshiaki Kawada & Ricky Fuyuki vs. Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas (6/5/89)

 

I also thought Kawada was excellent in this match which I had at 5 stars and in my top 100:

 

Genichiro Tenryu & Toshiaki Kawada vs. Stan Hansen & Terry Gordy (12/16/88)

 

Kawada was better than Misawa on the 80s stuff I thought, by some distance.

[GOTNW]

He wasn't as consistently good in a random 6 man tag but he could chunk out a great performance whenever he wished to do so. Those are mostly all high profile bouts and every one of them has a great Kawada performance, I wouldn't waste your time with shitty recommendations. The fact he was able to carry a lot of wrestlers to the best matches of their careers in his post-peak should tell you enough. Kawada had great matches against Steve Williams and Akiyama in 90s All Japan as well. I can't exactly increase the versatility of his opposition in that period but here's a random tag match that totally rules:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMSld6lx7WM

If you're going to argue that Kawada couldn't have great matches against wrestlers that aren't on the level of Misawa/Taue/Kobashi/Jumbo and then ignore examples of him doing so based on what someone else said about the whole of Kawada post-split without even giving him a shot then your argument just isn't very good.

[Jetlag]

Kawada vs. Akiyama, 2/9/93 is probably the best japanese rookie/vet match I've seen.

[JerryvonKramer]

I want to gain a sense of him on an average week, not necessarily uber-high end or best.

 

I want to see his equivalent of Flair vs. Sam Houston or whatever.

 

Not just for Kawada either but all candidates. I saw Jumbo vs. Big Boss Man from 1988 (I think it was) and thought that Flair would have got a much better match out of that. Luckily, there's a Kobashi vs. Bossman I've just stumbled across. I want to get a sense of how each of these elite workers are able to adapt their game to face lesser opponents. Since so much of the criticism from Flair doesn't come from his top end matches, but from random lesser ones. In fact, Kobashi vs. Bossman will likely be my first review.

[GOTNW]

I want to gain a sense of him on an average week, not necessarily uber-high end or best.

 

I want to see his equivalent of Flair vs. Sam Houston or whatever.

 

Not just for Kawada either but all candidates. I saw Jumbo vs. Big Boss Man from 1988 (I think it was) and thought that Flair would have got a much better match out of that. Luckily, there's a Kobashi vs. Bossman I've just stumbled across. I want to get a sense of how each of these elite workers are able to adapt their game to face lesser opponents. Since so much of the criticism from Flair doesn't come from his top end matches, but from random lesser ones. In fact, Kobashi vs. Bossman will likely be my first review.

Surely you have a solid grasp on how Baba's booking works by now? There aren't going to be 200 under the radar Kawada singles matches against bizarre opponents out there. Here's some stuff that would somewhat fit what you're looking for:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfsSa6Vvd5I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJt7vJGP69E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQqo89L8mMo

[elliott]

If you're going to take a more critical approach to Kawada you should look at the things people actually praise Kawada for and see if they hold up.

 

Things like:
Best tag worker ever

Best psychologist

Best seller

Best peak performances

[Childs]

He had a good match against Dan Spivey too. But the reality is that in his peak years, he wasn't working as many singles matches against random stiffs as Flair was at his peak. You can't investigate something that isn't there. When he had chances, he handled them well.

 

He also hardly ever worked an hour. He never worked a singles broadway with Misawa. And you haven't watched the 10/15/95 tag or the 10/18/96 singles with Kobashi. So that seems like a bizarre thing to hold against him. It also seems bizarre to claim Jumbo and Flair were beyond reproach when they went an hour. Watch the Jumbo-Choshu broadway; it's pretty damn boring.

 

If you watch week-to-week TV from the early '90s, Kawada's general standard of performance was incredibly high. He might not have worked as hard as Kobashi but who in the hell ever did? I'd say he was better week to week than Misawa in those years.

 

I guess my overall take would be that you're jumping to some very broad conclusions based on an incomplete review of his career.

[jdw]

People have been critical of Kawada since the 90s. Well, at least I was. Same with the other three.

 

The 60 minute thing is kind of funny.

 

Here is his experience working 60 minute matches prior to 1995:

 

 

Nada. Zip. Zilch.

 

Then he works four 60:00 matches in 1995:

 

01/19/95 Triple Crown Title: Toshiaki Kawada © vs Kenta Kobashi - Time Limit Draw (60:00)

 

01/24/95 World Tag Team Title: Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi © vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue - Time Limit Draw (60:00)

 

03/24/95 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue & Giant Baba vs Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Stan Hansen - Time Limit Draw (30:00)

 

10/15/95 World Tag Team Title: Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue © vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi - Time Limit Draw (60:00)

 

His first every 60:00 match if his first defense of the Triple Crown, and it was a total audible from Baba because of this:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hanshin_earthquake

 

It wasn't something that Kawada and Kobashi had been hashing out for a month, pondering how they were going to fill space. Instead, it was a last minute thing where Baba decided to give a suffering down something special.

 

The second one was also an audible thanks to the Naritta Nightmare. Doc's off the tour. My recollection is that Doc-Taue was going to be the main on that show, but someone can sift through the WON archive to check. The plans were out the window for the card the fans bought the tickets for. Baba decided to give them something special.

 

We don't have the first 60:00 match of Flair's, or Race's, or Bock, or any of those guys back in the 60s or 70s. I Inoki had worked in 60:00 draws for years before the Dory match. Baba had for years before the Destroyer and Bruno and O'Connor matches that we have. I suspect that if we sift through Backlund's record, we'll find him working 60 before the matches with Inoki in 1978. Even with those two, the first one is rather pedestrian before they take of to incredible heights in the second one.

 

As far as I can recall, Kawada's longest prior singles match had been the 37:58 with Doc when he won the titles. Kobashi had worked only one singles match over 30:00 in his career, going 41:23 against Doc at the Budokan before that. This was entirely new shit for them.

 

* * * * *

 

With respect to the matches themselves, I don't think Kawada is the worst worker in any of them.

 

Whether Kobashi or Kawada is the better worker in the singles is likely a matter of taste. Kobashi is a classing Got Shit To Do worker, and can do about as much as anyone. Is (i) he doing loads of shit because it was his idea of how to carry it, or (ii) was Kawada smart enough to know that when working with the heavyweight who can Do More Shit than any heavyweight in the world at that moment and being asked to go 60 it's probably a smart way to fill all that fucking space by letting the face Kobashi go deep into his bag of tricks. Who knows.

 

On the first tag title, Kawada is the best worker in the match. I don't think that even the biggest Taue Fan would claim that he's as good in that match as the wrestler he would blossom into during the Carnival Series in March-April. I suspect that myself and Taue Fans could reach a middle ground of agreement: Taue wasn't as shitty in the 1/95 tag as I once railed, but he's also not Really Great Taue yet. That guy was still a ways from evolving in 1995.

 

As far as the six man tag, which is a boatload of fun, I'd just point out that Kawada isn't the one sitting on the ring apron for a breather and telling a ring boy to get him some water. And that's not a massive knock of Baba: I fucking love him being in there for one last 60:00 ride with the top guys in his promotion.

 

As far as the last match, it's fantastic given the limitations put open it relative to old 60:00 tags of the past: the guys in 1995 couldn't break up the match with Falls. They were stuck in a one fall match that removes the ability to build to three high points: first fall, second fall, and the work towards the final finish.

 

In fact, that's a problem with all of these matches that is out of the control of the workers. Part of the greatness of the second Inoki-Backlund is that they were able to build to three separate finishes. Flair-Steamboat were able to break across three falls, and actually *not* go 60 by having a finish in the 3rd.

 

The two closest things we have to Kawada-Kobashi are the Backlund-Valentine and the Bret-Shawn.

 

The second was badly hurt by not having at least two falls during the first 60:00 to help break things up. I was there live and thought it was solid... but I'll also admit that those 60:00 were very flat with the crowd once it sunk into a long, unending, uninterrupted, high point lack stretch.

 

As for the first, as much as I and others like it, I suspect that most would join me in saying it would have been better if wrestled under 2/3 falls to break it up. That's not how the WWF did things in that era.

[jdw]

It also seems bizarre to claim Jumbo and Flair were beyond reproach when they went an hour. Watch the Jumbo-Choshu broadway; it's pretty damn boring.

 

The Choshu-Jumbo is a chore. The Race-Jumbo that won the 1978 Tokyo Sports Match of the Year is wildly disappointing, and that's after they JIP'd each of the three falls. I've never been a fan of the Flair-Jumbo 60:00 match and tend to think it's one of the more overrated matches around... and I'm a delusional Jumbo Mark who should be putting everything he does over. If Jumbo's 3/11/77 draw with Robinson his best match with Billy? Is it as good as Billy's PWF match with Baba the year before? As good as Jumbo's match with Terry the year before? There are more than a few "no" answers there.

 

I love Jumbo. I'm not sold he had an off the charts 60:00 singles match that survives. Some watchable ones, some disappointing ones.

 

We could say the same about Flair. Lord knows how many 60 matches he had with Steamboat over the years. Despite the mass quantities of them, the Boogie Jam match just lays there luck a egg. I remember Hoback being really excited to roll that one out for me to watch, and I'm thinking it would be cool to watch some 1984 Flair-Steamer. Then the thing just lays there. And snoozes along. And keeps going. At some point before 30 minutes it *felt* like it was going 60 minutes, and I asked James:

 

"Is this thing a draw?"

 

"Yeah."

 

"Oh God..."

 

Just a painful experience.

 

I've been on record talking about what a clusterfuck of a stupid ass match the Flair-Brody "the never grabbed a hold" and "they never stopped working" draw from St. Louis is.

 

All of these guys worked turd matches going 60:00. Don't get me started about the Brisco-Funk draw in Japan...

 

If you watch week-to-week TV from the early '90s, Kawada's general standard of performance was incredibly high. He might not have worked as hard as Kobashi but who in the hell ever did? I'd say he was better week to week than Misawa in those years.

 

 

It gets hard to judge week-to-week in 1995 because the TV was cut down, and the Budokan cards would eat up more time.

 

TV had been cut down in 1994 starting with the 3rd week of Carny (04/02/94 TV show). But with the Carny commercial tapes, you got more coverage than usual for that series. So the first three series were well covered. The 4th series was well enough covered as well with TV and two commercial tapes. After that it gets a little spotty, but the TV time even in the last half of the year is dealt with better than it would be in 1995. For the year as a whole, there's plenty of stuff to make a week-to-week type of judgement.

 

Misawa evolved into a terrific Triple Crown champ over 1993-95. That warrants a lot of credit. He also was a very good tag worker. It's a little hard to figure out credit there since Kobashi was his partner, and Misawa let Kobashi have his way to fill up loads of space in those matches. Misawa doesn't strike one as the tag worker in that period that he would be when teaming with Jun in 1996, where he seemed perfect in his role. In the non-title, non-Carny, non-Tag League matches... Misawa was spotty relative to Kobashi and Kawada. There also were times like a number of the the 1994 Carny matches where he looked like he'd rather be somewhere else. That never was the case with Kobashi, and I don't recall that from Kawada in that period unless he were in against someone like Nord.

 

I wrote this during Loss' run through the Yearbooks, and have mentioned it several times since. Watching the Big Matches, the Usual Suspect Matches, or even a bit deeper cut like the Yearbooks, doesn't give a full picture of the workers. Just one small example:

 

03/19/94 Korakuen Hall, Tokyo (03/20/94 NTV)

League: Misawa vs Akiyama (13:57)

 

04/01/94 Okayama (Carnival Commercial)

League: Kawada vs Akiyama (11:25)

 

04/10/94 Sendai (Carnival Commercial)

League: Williams vs Akiyama (12:26)

 

04/11/94 Osaka (Carnival Commercial)

League: Kobashi vs Akiyama (14:40)

 

These are four singles matches involving top All Japan workers (this was Doc at his peak) against Jun, who was right around 18 months into his career. The workers are taken out of Big Match setting. These aren't long drawn out matches, as Jun isn't at the level yet where he should be taking these guys 20+ minutes. They all work a similar theme: Top Vet vs Young Near-Rookie. It's a direct comp one can make between the four workers, in addition to of course being a gauge to where Jun is at.

 

The Yearbook has space limitations and tries to cover everything. You can't really have 16 matches from the series on the set, and they 12 picked aren't unreasonable. Three of these were among the four left off. Well...

 

Kobashi is Kobashi in his, and Kawada is Kawada in his. You pretty much get exactly what you would expect from the two in that setting. Which ones likes more is a matter of taste and the decades long running Kawada vs Kobashi debate.

 

The Williams match might be an even better indication than the various Usual Suspect matches of just how great Doc had gotten at that point. It's hard to imaging 1992 Doc having that match with a wrestler at Jun's level and skill.

 

Then you have Misawa who is way off his feed in his match. Jun is game and trying, and Misawa gives him rope to run. But overall, Misawa doesn't seem terribly intent on putting together a smart, solid match like Kawada and Doc were, or put on a spot show like Kobashi was.

 

It's just four matches, just one of Misawa's. Means nothing in the big picture.

 

Yet...

 

Misawa in general throughout the entire series doesn't seem to but on his feed. This is opening night, and on closing night he's the least interested (not interesting but interested) of the six people in his tag match. They worked the injury angle to give him most of the series off, and all but his initial few League matches off. I tossed out after the re-watch that it's possible that one of the reasons that they ran the injury angle, beyond the obvious booking one, was to give Misawa a lesser schedule to heal up a real injury. That's possible. But he also had a general air of not being into things.

 

Of course that would change at the next two Budokan's after Carny where he had two exceptional performances.

 

If all you see are those two great Budokan matches, then yeah... Misawa is right there with Kawada.

 

Carny '94 wasn't the only case. There were plenty of other times in a routine tv taping six man tag where he picked his spots, but for the most part gave Kawada, Kobashi, Kikuchi or Akiyama the rope to do most of the work. A lot of that can be defended: a top guy on a side should pick his spots, with his moment upping the intensity or heat in the match. He also spent a good deal of the period banged up, working through injuries, probably more of them than we'll even know. Of course that's the same with the rest of the AJPW boys, but he seemed to be the most banged up from 1991-94.

 

But, if you want to make a reasonable argument of Kobashi or Kawada over Misawa in that period, it's very easy to do.

 

Kawada can get dropped into a tag with Kikuchi against the Can-Ams, and have a super intense match that's loads of fun to watch. There are any number of matches like that.

 

Kobashi can get dropped into a match with Asako against the Can-Ams, with Kobashi already having "grown up" away from wrestling the Can-Ams in a match like this, and you'll see Kobashi in one of his better performances of the era being a more senior guy supporting a young kid getting the crap kicked out of him. All four are really good and it's hard to pick any over the others, but Kobashi is the one who could have killed the thing if he went into the Kobashi Show. Instead he's right on the mark. They are a load of other forgotten matches where Kobashi did things like this to help make matches better than they could have been, even if it *is* putting on the Kobashi Show in a potentially ** mundane TV six man that he elevates up to ***.

 

With Misawa, it's far harder to find that in this period. One can make a reasonable argument that he's the best of the group, but it's almost entirely driven by big title and league matches.

[JerryvonKramer]

jdw a question: you seem quite generous in taking into consideration mitigating circimstances for those Kawada matches, but when you are making criticisms of Flair, are you as generous with considering the context?

 

Let's say Clash 1 vs. Sting, a guy greener than grass who'd never been any where near having a match at that level or length, do you allow Flair the grace of the fact he was in a pretty tough spot to work a classic? Flair fans will seldom point to that as a great match, at least not on this board, even though it did make Sting a legit star.

 

Just wondering. I mean, we can all see Flair has "stuff to do" in that match, but he was working a brutally limited opponent. Why would you knock Flair in that match but stick up for the 95 broadways? That's all.

[jdw]

jdw a question: you seem quite generous in taking into consideration mitigating circimstances for those Kawada matches, but when you are making criticisms of Flair, are you as generous with considering the context?

 

I suspect that if I watched any of those draws that I would be more critical of them the last time I watched them. Though I was critical of the first tag draw to the point that I still get grief over saying what a dog Taue was in it.

 

 

Let's say Clash 1 vs. Sting, a guy greener than grass who'd never been any where near having a match at that level or length, do you allow Flair the grace of the fact he was in a pretty tough spot to work a classic?

 

 

Ric and Sting had been working singles matches against each other since early December. Sadly, very few have time listings. We don't know how close Flair and Sting got in one of those matches to the 39 minutes the "45 minute draw" went. It's likely that Flair used at least one of those matches to test going close to 30, if not a bit above.

 

I don't think Ric was in a terribly tough spot. He'd spent close to a decade and a half working like that with people, be they inexperienced like the two-year vet Sting or longer vets. Some of them with fewer matches together than he had with Sting by that point.

 

Flair fans will seldom point to that as a great match, at least not on this board, even though it did make Sting a legit star.

 

 

I found it rather boring the last time I watched it. I did enjoy watching it live on TBS while taping Mania on another TV.

 

Did it make Sting a legit star? My thought at the time is that it didn't change a ton. Sting had been elevated after Starcade in a promotion nearly devoid of stars. Ric had run his course with Barry, Dusty was old hat, and Lex just turned and they didn't want to run that match yet. The fans liked Sting before it, liked him after... he really didn't draw close to Ric-Lex, but he was a "star" in a dying promotion. It's kind of history and the respective legends of Ric and Sting that try to make that the star turning moment. I always thought it was the Gate Crashing that did it.

 

Just wondering. I mean, we can all see Flair has "stuff to do" in that match, but he was working a brutally limited opponent. Why would you knock Flair in that match but stick up for the 95 broadways?

 

 

Ric did what he had to do to fill space. Which is what even Flair critics say he does. He had a very good performance. It wasn't mind number or anything: basic Ric against a face similar to plenty of his matches.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm just saying that it is matches like that that Flair critics tend to point to, rather than y'know Flair vs. Steamer / Garvin / Windham / Luger / Funk, etc. etc., take your pick.

 

When I pull out less than stellar Kawada matches, there are mitigiating circimstances and I'm expected to take those into account, but as a Flair guy I'm also expected to accept people flat-out ignoring his top end stuff and hammering the same tired old points again and again using the selective evidence of a Flair vs. Sting or whatever, and then accept them trying to deny mitigating circumstances such as the greenness of the opponent.

 

That's all.

[dawho5]

I'm of the opinion that in every 60 minute draw there is "stuff to do" going on. There's going to be filler in matches like that because that's the nature of a 60 minute draw.

[jdw]

I'm just saying that it is matches like that that Flair critics tend to point to, rather than y'know Flair vs. Steamer / Garvin / Windham / Luger / Funk, etc. etc., take your pick.

 

Don't know what to say about that as it's a take your pick thing for me.

 

I've long been one of those who thinks the WrestlerWar Steamer-Flair is wildly overrated.

 

I've stated a number of times, including here in the past few days, that the WorldWide Barry-Flair was disappointing on re-watch, especially in terms of what Flair did to fill the time.

 

I never thought the Flair-Funk *match* at the Bash was all that great given Flair's lack of comfort as a heel, and playing a role of wanting to kill someone who nearly "ended his career". Terry's fine busting his ass, but there's a bit of sadness even in watching his end. On the other hand, the post match is AWESOME, right down to Flair pulling off one of his best mic spots ever.

 

I probably was the only person at the time who thought the I Quit Match with Funk was kind of "eh". Flair struck me as looking tired in it, and not really having the stuff to work an I Quit Match. Terry busted his ass, but I never felt like the crowd felt he had a chance of winning, which leaves some flatness to it.

 

I don't even want to think about the Lex matches. I enjoyed them at the time with the exception of the RoboCop one and the original Bash one... well... the Battle of the Belts match was tedious as all hell. But they had a number of matches at the time I thought were good or watchable. I'm fearful of watching either of the 1988 Starcade or 1990 WrestleWar .matches.

 

Garvin... Garvin... Garvin... hmmm... Oh!

 

There isn't a single Flair-Garvin match that I'd rather watch than the Tully-Garvin match from WorldWide. That's while admitting I watched a perfectly solid, hard hitting Garvin-Flair live at the Forum (though it did have an extra shitty walk-out finish), and I find Flair-Garvin to be a perfectly fine match up. It just never blew me away as watching MOTYC. In contrast, the Tully-Garvin might be my favorite US match of 1986.

 

So Flair Critics can, and have, pointed to matches with those other opponents.

 

Heck, I've recently pointed to a pair of matches with my patron wrestling Saint Jumbo that struck me as either boring (the 1983 draw that most people love) or incredibly laughable in Flair's performance (the 1978 match).

 

 

When I pull out less than stellar Kawada matches, there are mitigiating circimstances and I'm expected to take those into account,

 

 

I'm not "expecting" you to take what I posted into account. I offered it up as information for you or anyone else reading to use as they might. Perhaps you don't think it's noteworthy when talking about Kawada going 60 to know that it was the first 60:00 singles match that he'd ever worked. Perhaps others do.

 

As far as "less than stellar", I'm not sure everyone agrees. Here's where Loss rated the four one hour draws that Kawada was in that made the Yearbook:

 

Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 01/19/95) ****1/2

Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 01/24/95) ***3/4

Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 10/15/95) ****1/2

Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 10/18/96) ****1/2

 

He rates three of them very highly, and the fourth as a very good match.

 

For some context on how he ranked them relative to Kawada's other matches in 1995 & 1996:

 

1995 Rankings

#1 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/15/95)

#2 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 06/09/95)

#5 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Akira Taue (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/08/95)

#11 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 10/15/95)

#15 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 01/19/95)

#17 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/13/95)

#22 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW 07/24/95)

#39 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Gary Albright (AJPW 10/25/95)

#52 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Satoru Asako vs Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue & Tamon Honda (AJPW 06/30/95)

#55 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/06/95)

#66 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 01/24/95)

#86 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Jun Akiyama (AJPW Championship Carnival 03/21/95)

 

 

1996 Rankings

#1 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 12/06/96)

#4 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 11/29/96)

#8 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 07/09/96)

#14 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 10/18/96)

#22 - Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (AJPW 11/22/96)

#37 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 05/23/96)

#39 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Akira Taue (AJPW 03/31/96)

#44 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Johnny Ace & Gary Albright (AJPW 04/20/96)

#53 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 05/24/96)

 

Other than the first tag draw, he rates them extremely high... up in his stellar range in a pair of very competitive years for matches, and not just Kawada matches.

 

I get that you don't care for them. Not everyone does. I never thought the first tag was as great as Meltzer rated it, and spent one entire taxi ride in Tijuana arguing with him about it's merits that ended in one of my favorite Meltzer quotes ever. The first Kobashi singles match always annoyed me for the lack of a finished that could have happened after 55 minutes and still make it a "special" match for the Osaka-Kobe area. So it's fine to think they're not off the charts. It's a bit like me thinking that Jumbo-Flair is a boring match. We all have things that we don't care for that loads of other people like.

 

 

but as a Flair guy I'm also expected to accept people flat-out ignoring his top end stuff and hammering the same tired old points again and again using the selective evidence of a Flair vs. Sting or whatever, and then accept them trying to deny mitigating circumstances such as the greenness of the opponent.

 

 

I find a lot of his high end stuff to be uninteresting. Including a lot of stuff that I found interesting at the time.

 

Of course I'm also the guy who at the time thought that these five matches:

 

10/31/98 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi

06/11/99 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi

03/01/03 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi

07/10/04 Kenta Kobashi vs Jun Akiyama

10/01/05 Kenta Kobashi vs Samoa Joe

 

Either bored the fuck out of me or were dumb ass matches.

 

Those would be five matches that won the Match of the Year Award in the Observer's year end poll, as voted on by my fellow hardcore wrestling fans. They also are liked in varying degrees by a lot of posters here.

 

So I find a lot of high end stuff by any number of wrestlers to bore me or be weak sause. Not just Ric's, but also stuff by All Japan Sacred Cows like Misawa and Kobashi.

 

My thought is to eliminate the persecution complex about Flair: people aren't out to get Flair. They're critical of all sorts of shit. Some of Ric's work is just part of it. Misawa being a lazy fuck in the 1994 Carnival is another part of it. Kobashi being a goofball who didn't grow up quick enough is another. Kawada basically abdicating how he might have preferred to work and just tossing in the towel to go along with however Misawa or Kobashi or Mutoh wanted to work is another. Everybody takes shots.

[Jingus]

I think one problem with Kawada in really long matches is that, at a certain point, he runs out of different stuff to do and can become rather repetitive. He never had as big a bag of movez as Misawa and especially Kobashi did; hell, Akiyama and Taue might've had more varied offenses as well. When Kawada goes past the half-hour mark and into the finishing stretch, sometimes it starts to feel like an Onita match. "I'm just gonna KEEP hitting powerbombs, eventually ONE of them should get the pin!" The only part of 6/9/95 that I don't passionately adore is that last few sluggish minutes, where it felt rather arbitrary that This Powerbomb is what finally pins Misawa rather than Those Other Powerbombs.

[Childs]

Actually, they did a good job of establishing that if Kawada could hit a third powerbomb in a big match, he'd usually win. So it wasn't really arbitrary.

[jdw]

I'm of the opinion that in every 60 minute draw there is "stuff to do" going on. There's going to be filler in matches like that because that's the nature of a 60 minute draw.

 

I would differentiate Flair in this way.

 

* Flair's Got Stuff To Do to fill that time

* Lots of other workers are Just Killing Time to fill that time

 

Some of us who wear the heavy mantle of being tagged Flair Critics point out that Flair's method is very effective. Mindless in large chunks, but every effective in keeping the fans engaged in what could be a chore for them. It's a positive.

 

The second is a chore. Harley-Baba in 1975 has a whole slew of Just Killing Time because of Harley's weak chops on the mat. We all know Baba could go on the mat because he and The Destroyer filled twice as much time with a lot of interesting stuff. And we can look at Baba's matches from the era with Brisco and even Jumbo the following year and see a guy who had mat chops. Harley... not so much, as again seen by his draw with Lawler which is a high example of loads of Just Killing Time.

 

I'd say the Baba-Destroyer or second Inoki-Backlund draw is a higher level of filling time. They're not doing mindless but entertaining stuff. They're not just laying around killing time. They're working on some interesting stuff to fill the time. Some of it might be pedestrian, and stuff you'd see in a lot of their matches. Destroyer has his sequence of ways to get out of a head scissors, each time getting tossed back in them before coming up with a different way to get out. It's was a sequence that a lot of different wrestlers used, and not something Dick invented. He just did it very well, had certain accents to it, and rather than mindless was a sequence that developed as he pass through it.

 

Every 60 minute match, or frankly every long match, has to figure out how to Fill Space.

 

Flair was a master of filling space. He had a lot of shit he could cram into it, kept things moving along, kept the fans engaged. While I would argue that it's mindless in terms of adding up to much from a storyline standpoint or being terribly interesting for me to watch, I also always mention that it's very effective in entertaining the fans.

[JerryvonKramer]

I agree with much of that jdw, but I think you overplay the point, or over emphasise it. By that, I mean many of the matches do have effective storylines and Flair does have psychology in them.

 

Also, if you are not high on high end Flair matches, then fine, we have nothing else to talk about.