Hulk Hogan

[goodhelmet]

I don't think the third company was TNA. I think the 1st company was the AWA.

[Grimmas]

As we move closer to the date I am pretty confident Hogan will make the list. One of the greatest sellers of all time. He was great in big moments and his charisma was so much it made a lot of lesser matches feel special.

 

The really good matches and performances do exist, although not the 5 star classics.

 

Hogan is a guy I will watch his stuff (during a lot of periods) and that is the most important to me on this list. Who do I want to watch the most.

[GOTNW]

I somewhat like Hogan but there's definitely 100 wrestlers I like more. His Japan work is a highlight for me. He was much bigger than anyone he worked against and when he was paired with opponents who knew how to take advantage of that (Fujinami, Tenryu) it created a really special environment in which I bought the simplest maneuvers as convincing nearfalls.

[Grimmas]

I somewhat like Hogan but there's definitely 100 wrestlers I like more. His Japan work is a highlight for me. He was much bigger than anyone he worked against and when he was paired with opponents who knew how to take advantage of that (Fujinami, Tenryu) it created a really special environment in which I bought the simplest maneuvers as convincing nearfalls.

I love his babyface run from the AWA till sometime in 87.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

I can't buy into the idea of Hogan as a great seller, let alone one of the greatest of all time. His selling was far too cartoonish, and goofy, and over-the-top. Not to mention not very logical. I just watched some of his stuff with Hennig, and he sells the neck-snap by jumping up to his feet and holding his throat like he's just been choked. It looked really ridiculous.

[Grimmas]

I can't buy into the idea of Hogan as a great seller, let alone one of the greatest of all time. His selling was far too cartoonish, and goofy, and over-the-top. Not to mention not very logical. I just watched some of his stuff with Hennig, and he sells the neck-snap by jumping up to his feet and holding his throat like he's just been choked. It looked really ridiculous.

Post 87 Hogan is past his peak, so not what I am looking at for making a case for Hogan.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Putting that one example aside, I just don't see a case for Hogan as a great seller. I like Hogan a fair bit, but if I was going to make a case for him for a list like this it would be based on charisma, and timing of his comebacks, and not on selling.

[Grimmas]

Putting that one example aside, I just don't see a case for Hogan as a great seller. I like Hogan a fair bit, but if I was going to make a case for him for a list like this it would be based on charisma, and timing of his comebacks, and not on selling.

I find he gains a lot of sympathy during the face in peril sections of matches. Most of his matches are on him getting his ass beat until the come back and those matches are engaging. Isn't that what selling is, making getting beat down look good and compelling?

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

I would say there should be an element of believability to it, especially for a babyface who bases most of his matches on a long heel control section leading to a big comeback. I don't really see any authenticity in Hogan's selling, and that makes it hard for me to invest emotionally in his struggle. I would argue that he isn't really gaining sympathy through his selling, rather that he has the crowd's sympathy because he's Hulk Hogan.

 

I guess I'd simplify it by saying that selling to me is acting, and Hogan is a terrible actor.

[benjaminkicks]

I think Hogan sucks in pretty much every way besides drawing, which I'm not taking account in this list.

 

No way he makes my list.

[El-P]

Hulk's selling was goofy as shit, and the way he registered the shots or bumped was not exactly state of the art selling either.

 

I would argue that he isn't really gaining sympathy through his selling, rather that he has the crowd's sympathy because he's Hulk Hogan.

 

Pretty much. Hogan didn't become a superstar because of the way he sold. He became a superstar because of his charisma, presence, body, promos and over the top act and maneurisms. And because he never lost. As opposed to say, Ricky Morton, or Ricky Steamboat. So of course, when he sold he got the crowd in his hands. But only because he was already Hulk Hogan. The crowd supported him because they wanted him to hulk up. And hulking up is pretty much the worst concept of selling, ever. It's a thousand times worst than any delayed selling if we're being honest. Not to mention hulking up after a finisher, which was Hogan's idea of "compelling". Yeah, it drew shitloads of money, for a while. It still sucked.

[...TG]

 

 

Choshu brought that almost unparalleled ability to make everything feel important. Wherever he was seemed to be the eye of the storm

his infectious energy and charisma turned everything to gold for a while.

Hogan's ability to electrify a promotion and make things feel more important should count for something. He did it not once, but THREE times in his career for three different companies.

 

 

Assuming the three cases in question were WWF, WCW, and TNA: Hogan in all three cases was likewise instrumental in creating the worst periods in the histories of all three companies. Moreso than any other wrestler. You can't celebrate Hogan's positive influence on box office (clear, valid) or his "big match" capacity without acknowledging that he was true poison (and IMO equally poisonous) at three pivotal points (end of WCW, '02-'03 WWE, and post-2010 TNA) as well. All three groups were badly burned by him, in ways so damaging that each company has since failed to recover. Anyone reading the news lately knows that Hogan is his own worst enemy.

This is probably off-topic, but how was he "true poison" in '02-'03 WWE? (That's an honest question, as that was during my wrestling dark period and I really don't know the specifics.)

[Ricky Jackson]

Yeah, I don't get that one either.

[JerryvonKramer]

I did mean AWA, obviously.

 

I'm looking forward to watching some freshly turned NWO Hogan again at some point to assess his character work. Hogan will likely make my list somewhere.

[Jimmy Redman]

Yeah I'd say Hunter did the most individual damage in that period.

 

On Hogan's selling, I feel like just because it may not be realistic selling, doesn't necessarily make it bad or ineffective selling. There's Terry Funk's goofy selling, for one example. Hogan himself is a cartoon. Cartoonish, OTT selling fits the character, and it was effective at gaining sympathy and peaking crowds for his comeback. I think a lot of it has to with Being Hulk Hogan, but not all of it, because there are guys who have charisma and who are over to a crowd who then lose them during the match, or can't get that timing right.

[Loss]

Ratings did tank when Hogan was champion for a month, but that was inevitable to a degree. It was clear from the start that Hogan could be successful at that stage, but not for very long.

[goc]

Hogan did not tank them in 2002, they tanked themselves. They were IDIOTS to rush the belt onto Hulk like that. They hurt the title and essentially killed off a lot of Hulk's popularity. He could have been a hot attraction in 2002 if they'd used him right.

[JerryvonKramer]

Yeah I'd say Hunter did the most individual damage in that period.

On Hogan's selling, I feel like just because it may not be realistic selling, doesn't necessarily make it bad or ineffective selling. There's Terry Funk's goofy selling, for one example. Hogan himself is a cartoon. Cartoonish, OTT selling fits the character, and it was effective at gaining sympathy and peaking crowds for his comeback. I think a lot of it has to with Being Hulk Hogan, but not all of it, because there are guys who have charisma and who are over to a crowd who then lose them during the match, or can't get that timing right.

I think Hogan is very good at selling and excellent at generating sympathy. Better than lots of babyfaces at it.

[Hawkeye12]

Hogan did not tank them in 2002, they tanked themselves. They were IDIOTS to rush the belt onto Hulk like that. They hurt the title and essentially killed off a lot of Hulk's popularity. He could have been a hot attraction in 2002 if they'd used him right.

 

Hogan got the belt a week or two after they split the brands, that's more what caused the downturn in ratings. In comparison to what came after he very well have been a factor in keeping them decent for the extra month, rather than being a reason for a decline. Maybe a further extended Hogan run actually would've been beneficial, but you only can judge that in hindsight and knowing the bottom fell out after he dropped the belt to Undertaker. Hogan's month as champ outdrew Rock's month that summer, so who knows.

[SomethingSavage]

Hogan did not tank them in 2002, they tanked themselves. They were IDIOTS to rush the belt onto Hulk like that. They hurt the title and essentially killed off a lot of Hulk's popularity. He could have been a hot attraction in 2002 if they'd used him right.

 

The 2002 Hogan run is tricky. The Hulk-A-Mania nostalgia act wasn't going to have a long lifespan, but man. It was hot for a moment, and so I kind of can't fault them for wanting to strike while the iron was hot & people were buzzing.

 

At the same time, it may have been a smarter move to stretch things out and have Hogan embark on this quest to regain the crown that he once held as WWF/E Champion. It could have made for really "epic" storytelling, and the payoff could have felt HUGE by the time he got around to dropping the leg o' doom and getting the win.

 

By way of that, Brock's annihilation of Hulk would have meant even more. So yeah. It could have been a domino effect that would have worked out better in the long haul. But I don't know if that would have been enough to keep interest up & keep fans invested in the narrative. It's just as likely that people would have tuned out before the payoff came anyway.

 

I do think part of the problem was in the way the whole thing was handled though. Hulk lost to Rock at Mania (right move, not arguing that), but then he turns around and automatically receives the title shot. He dons the red & yellow again with about an hour of buildup, which felt like a major missed opportunity to make a memorable moment out of the whole ordeal. And then he beats Hunter - of all people, AND a fellow babyface - for the belt. It was just the wrong way & LIKELY the wrong time to move the belt onto Hogan.

 

They didn't exactly follow it up with anything spectacular either. The entire build to Hulk/Taker was like a backstage rib you'd see pulled at one of the WCW Road Wild shows or something, and then Hulk was quickly booked into the mid-card "Even Steven" booking mix, where he won as much as he lost and traded wins with everyone in sight.

[Loss]

Hogan thought he should get his win back from Brock, which I can see arguments for and against, but disagreement over that led to him briefly quitting. While I'm not sure Hogan going over Brock in 2002 made too much sense, Hogan was professional in putting him over in memorable fashion, and there was still more fuel in that tank, even if Hogan never beat him.

[Loss]

I remember him also being pretty angry in 2003 when he worked a six-man on Smackdown teaming with Brock and Angle at MSG and the crowd was chanting LOUDLY for him. However, Angle and Lesnar stuck to the pre-planned layout regardless and didn't tag him in until much later. Hulk felt like they should have called an audible based on the crowd, and he's probably right.

[Danish Dynamite]

Come on. Hogan's selling works. Sure, some prefer more subtle or realistic selling, and some like Undertaker playing dead and then rising. For the character of Hulk Hogan what he did was awesome. And I don't see how his selling is any more over the top than Flair or Valentine falling on their face, or Austin's bumping as Stunning Steve. Those three will be way higher on my list, but Hogan's on there as well. Haven't heard the real sound argument against, and Parv's made plenty of solid arguments for. Plus his AWA, Japan, 84-87 WWF, early NWO and lots os select other highlights are more than enough for me. Add to that matches I totally enjoy outside the best periods against guys like Savage, Slaughter, Warrior, Boss Man, Vader, Hansen and others and I'm almost talking myself into pushing him further up my list...

[Parties]

Hogan did not tank them in 2002, they tanked themselves. They were IDIOTS to rush the belt onto Hulk like that. They hurt the title and essentially killed off a lot of Hulk's popularity. He could have been a hot attraction in 2002 if they'd used him right.

 

Hogan is not someone who wants to "be used right". He wanted to be the main event, as always. Which you can't totally fault him for, given that athletes/performers tend to be megalomaniacs who don't recognize when to hang it up. It would have nice if the biggest star in wrestling history had any self-awareness, but I think this month has taught us what Hogan is and how distorted his world view has become. Back in 2003, the moment they realized he was tanking business and that having him as your champ looked bush league, he took his ball and went home.

 

I'm overstating the point as we're currently in a particularly bad era for WWE booking too much nostalgia and relying too heavily on over-the-hill acts that can't go anymore. But that goes back to my original thought: the damage Hogan's '02-03 run did was plant the seed in Vince's head that you can always get "one more drop" from that rag. Which has now been the company mindset for over a decade. They've created exactly one new star in the last thirteen years. Two if you count Brock, who's really more a creation of UFC. And I think it's very clear that the detrimental attitude of always going back to the old-timers (coupled with Vince's own seniority) starts with that Hogan run. It's as much Vince's fault as it is Hulk's, but it directly led to the terrible pattern that the company has been stuck in ever since.

 

All of which could forgiven if he was a great wrestler. Which he was at various times between 1980-1987. But his career in total tends to be a mix of selfish mediocrity, poor babyface psychology, and dull matches that still got massive crowd reactions. I'll never argue he wasn't incredibly charismatic. He does nothing for me, but he obviously did it in his time for tons of fans. But in assessing the 100 best wrestlers of all time, you have to be prioritizing star power and crowd reaction much more than I am to list him.

 

Did he have a good match after Vader in '95? Hogan's a textbook example of someone who should be docked points for staying around too long and being horrible for longer than he was good. I have the same opinion of Foley, Savage, Michaels, Taker, Bruiser/Crusher, Kobashi, and lots of other megastars who became lousy. Because that's part of their story. Whereas if you look at guys like Finlay, Regal, Fujinami, Lawler, Dundee, Funk, Casas, Santito, and so many others at the top of my list, they were not only still technically proficient-to-excellent, they also became wiser in their tactics, better at conveying drama, and had the self-awareness to adapt to their aging physiques and limitations. Even Flair, for all his egotism and faults, worked a 2011 match with Jay Lethal in lame-ass TNA that I just watched randomly on Youtube that thought showed a lot of heart and brains.

[Loss]

Parties, do you consider Chris Jericho and Edge "stars"? If you mean "the guy", yeah, I agree, but they have created a decent amount of second and third-tier main eventers.