Vader

[Matt D]

One goal with this project is to poke at things with new criticisms. Maybe they'll hold up as valid. Maybe they won't. Maybe they'll let us see things in a new way. Maybe they're just bullshit. I'm not set on this one but I think it's worth looking at. So, your question is a good question and I don't think there's an easy answer. I'm going to ramble for a bit (it's been a crazy week so I haven't hit a lot of posts I've wanted to hit, some of the more general stuff). I think my last paragraph will be the most important. I almost touched on it in my last reply, and thankfully, this is a talking point I like with a specific Vader match, so I can run with it a bit. It seems very difficult and even dangerous to factor context in when examining a wrestler; by that I primarily mean placement on the card and general context in the promotion over time.

 

There are easy examples. One of my favorites is looking at the Johnny Polo vs Marty Jannetty match from Raw, where Polo really went all out. Just a crazy TV match where he showed as much as he could. This was because Levy was frustrated that he wasn't wrestling regularly and that he was used as a manager and a production guy. It was a very solid performance. It was also the exact wrong performance, to the point where the next week on Raw, Vince was talking about how he wrestled the match as a chickenshit manager, when that really wasn't the case at all. JJ Dillon tells a similar story about how he wanted to really go out and impress the "boys in the back" when he was supposed to show a ton of ass. Now those are macro examples and not necessarily micro ones, and if you just saw those matches outside of the broader context of what was going on, you'd probably think they were pretty good.

 

The second is a Vader thing. Look at Starrcade 94 (sorry). He wrestles Duggan early in the card for the US title. It's mainly a pretty good brawl almost completely devoid of standard "big man spots." That wasn't just a Duggan thing. Look at his really quite good series with Yokozuna the year before. He's not adverse to that. So why do they work that way? They work that way because later on the card, higher billed, was Sting vs Avalanche, which they were saving all the big man spots for, so as not to burn the crowd out on them.

 

So my point? It's really tricky to try to judge a wrestler on how he's managing his work relative to the greater goals of the night or the promotion. That brings in a lot of other information that's hard to get to. That said, how can you dismiss those factors mentioned above as being important once you know them? They're hugely important.

 

I need to think about this more and present this better but: Would you say that doing things that are going to hurt the credibility of your co-workers or the overall product might matter? Doing things that will hurt your own matches moving forward because they're unsustainable and they condition the fans that certain time-tested moves and spots and tricks are no longer valid or that they're not enough? Is there a cost to this over time and does it matter? Can a spot be effective in the moment but ill-thought out in the long term or even in the context of the entire card or on your health over time? does that matter? If so, it's probably only to try to figure out people in the top 25. That's sort of the high level nitpickery we're on, but that's one element.

 

I think ultimately, if I watch a wrestler do something that's above and beyond, watch him really use that tool, and he does so in a way that adds to the match and that makes logical sense within the match and especially that has a greater effect in the immediate than not using that tool would have done, I'll probably give him credit for that. But the tool has to be used well. At the end of the day, the best wrestlers are the ones that use the tools at their disposal the best. If all else is equal (which is very rare), then having more tools matter. Where I differ from a lot of people is that I might more highly rate "using the tools available tools well" than what tools are being used. Sometimes that means I'll credit a wrestler with less tools who use them exceptionally well than a wrestler with a lot of tools who uses them well, but just well. I weigh the how far more than the "how many."

[MJH]

Whilst it seems a somewhat simplistic answer to your question, I think Vader "maintained his aura" simply because his offence looked so good. I don't want to write too much on it now as he's definitely a guy I'll be going back to for the project as I've been down on him more than most (whilst still considering him pretty/close to great) but it's a pretty simple rationale: the better you look on offense, the more ass you can show on defence without looking like one.

[ohtani's jacket]

Well, he had those punches. I don't think you can overestimate the effect of those punches. He's a guy I like, but I don't think he was ever a great worker. During the Smarkschoice WCW poll I often mentioned his cookie cutter match structure and how telegraphed it was. I actually think I like his stuff from before '92 more than his prime. His shoot style stuff was awful and that's accounting for the fact he wasn't a shoot style guy. I would rather watch him fight Otto Wanz a million times than ever watch him face Nobuhiko Takada again (who I saw on television the other day, incidentally.) If I vote for him it would be somewhere around 75. That could go up if I watch some matches.

[DR Ackermann]

Vader's bumping really hurts him in my eyes. It's not the bumps themselves, but when he does them. He always bumps too much too soon.

[Timbo Slice]

I need to think about this more and present this better but: Would you say that doing things that are going to hurt the credibility of your co-workers or the overall product might matter? Doing things that will hurt your own matches moving forward because they're unsustainable and they condition the fans that certain time-tested moves and spots and tricks are no longer valid or that they're not enough? Is there a cost to this over time and does it matter? Can a spot be effective in the moment but ill-thought out in the long term or even in the context of the entire card or on your health over time? does that matter? If so, it's probably only to try to figure out people in the top 25. That's sort of the high level nitpickery we're on, but that's one element.

 

I'm not sure about the health aspect (although I know a lot of people think that way) but in the context you're talking about, Kobashi's entire late career run comes into question because of that. Same with guys like Angle, Toyota and a lot of other guys reliant on a lot of high spots, but because they feel the need to up the ante, end up burning those spots out. One reason why a guy like Hansen gets considered as a #1 guy in a lot of people's eyes is because he knew how to build his matches up to where the question became whether he hit the lariat or not, because people basically knew if he hit it, it was over. He then figured out ways to incorporate it without burning it out as a true finish, with the 2/28/93 Kawada match perhaps being the best example of that.

 

Vader DID have that to an extent, especially when you had guys kicking out of the moonsault. But I'm not sure if that's on Vader or that's just on the style he ended up working.

[Childs]

Well, he had those punches. I don't think you can overestimate the effect of those punches. He's a guy I like, but I don't think he was ever a great worker. During the Smarkschoice WCW poll I often mentioned his cookie cutter match structure and how telegraphed it was. I actually think I like his stuff from before '92 more than his prime. His shoot style stuff was awful and that's accounting for the fact he wasn't a shoot style guy. I would rather watch him fight Otto Wanz a million times than ever watch him face Nobuhiko Takada again (who I saw on television the other day, incidentally.) If I vote for him it would be somewhere around 75. That could go up if I watch some matches.

 

I've never quite understood why you hate his UWFI matches so much. Is it more what he did or more your dislike for the whole aesthetic of that promotion? Or both?

[shoe]

He was also a trend setter in a way. The World champions before him were never monsters. Some were big like Hogan. Vader set the precedent for wrestlers like Yoko, Big Show, and that ilk to become world champions. When Vader challenged Sting in 92 I never thought he had a chance at beating Sting because we were taught monsters never won the World Title. We'd see Andre , OMG, Kamala, Bossman, and Earthquake would challenge but fall short.So influence he has going for him too.

[stomperspc]

Vader's bumping really hurts him in my eyes. It's not the bumps themselves, but when he does them. He always bumps too much too soon.

 

Could you give an example or two of this? Not saying he didn't do it but my recollection is that he timed his big bumps really well and maximized their impact, but maybe we are not thinking of the same matches. I would agree that he bumped "a lot" relative to other big men, but I thought he always did a good job getting a big reaction out of his first few bumps and then saved bigger/well-timed ones for near falls.

[Childs]

One of my favorite things about Vader is he could bump his ass off without undermining his aura as a bad motherfucker. His offense bought him that latitude.

[WingedEagle]

Vader also didn't flop and take wild, exaggerated bumps. He'd stagger, eat some big offense and eventually go down, always making his opponent earn everything. Definitely not a cheap date. He insisted on flowers, a nice dinner, dessert and provocative conversation before even considering going home with you.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

Well, he had those punches. I don't think you can overestimate the effect of those punches. He's a guy I like, but I don't think he was ever a great worker. During the Smarkschoice WCW poll I often mentioned his cookie cutter match structure and how telegraphed it was. I actually think I like his stuff from before '92 more than his prime. His shoot style stuff was awful and that's accounting for the fact he wasn't a shoot style guy. I would rather watch him fight Otto Wanz a million times than ever watch him face Nobuhiko Takada again (who I saw on television the other day, incidentally.) If I vote for him it would be somewhere around 75. That could go up if I watch some matches.

 

I've never quite understood why you hate his UWFI matches so much. Is it more what he did or more your dislike for the whole aesthetic of that promotion? Or both?

 

 

He just looked so ungainly. It reminds me of that big Korean guy who did MMA. White didn't have a clue what he was doing half the time, which takes you out of the fight. Plus I don't like the way he was presented backstage as some kind of psychotic lunatic. Character portrayal is something that hurts Vader in my eyes and that's as equally true for Japan as it is for the WWF.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Vader also didn't flop and take wild, exaggerated bumps. He'd stagger, eat some big offense and eventually go down, always making his opponent earn everything. Definitely not a cheap date. He insisted on flowers, a nice dinner, dessert and provocative conversation before even considering going home with you.

 

I don't agree with this at all. I thought he was veritably whore-ish in the way he bumped at times. I love Vader as a worker, but I'm definitely in the 'he bumped too much' camp, and I think his problem was that he didn't really make his opponents earn that first takedown enough. Compare with Yoko (who I know was bigger, but still), who I thought was really great at timing his bumps to maximum effect.

[Graham Crackers]

Some of his pro style offense, and especially the chokeslam, looks jarringly cooperative in UWFi matches. That's never a problem in WCW, NJPW, or AJPW but it looks really weird in that setting.

[Loss]

I think ultimately, if I watch a wrestler do something that's above and beyond, watch him really use that tool, and he does so in a way that adds to the match and that makes logical sense within the match and especially that has a greater effect in the immediate than not using that tool would have done, I'll probably give him credit for that. But the tool has to be used well. At the end of the day, the best wrestlers are the ones that use the tools at their disposal the best. If all else is equal (which is very rare), then having more tools matter. Where I differ from a lot of people is that I might more highly rate "using the tools available tools well" than what tools are being used. Sometimes that means I'll credit a wrestler with less tools who use them exceptionally well than a wrestler with a lot of tools who uses them well, but just well. I weigh the how far more than the "how many."

 

Do you agree that there's something to be said for wrestlers who can break the rules and go against conventions in a way that works? What I mean is that when you describe what a wrestler is actually doing, it shouldn't work. Yet for whatever reason, it does. I will never hold it against a wrestler if he's a tough act to follow, personally. Shows are meant to be stolen.

[DR Ackermann]

Vader also didn't flop and take wild, exaggerated bumps. He'd stagger, eat some big offense and eventually go down, always making his opponent earn everything. Definitely not a cheap date. He insisted on flowers, a nice dinner, dessert and provocative conversation before even considering going home with you.

 

 

That's not exactly how it usually worked out. Vader would get knocked out of the ring and fly into the barricades in the first 2 minutes of a match.

[fxnj]

I rewatched his match with Yamazaki after reading some of the comments and based on that I completely disagree on his shoot style work being "awful." It may actually one of the best short matches I've ever seen in terms of the drama they pack into it, made even more impressive by their doing it by working a slow build instead of going the obvious route of working a crazy stiff sprint. Both guys were also masterful in their selling and the chokeslam came across as a devastating finish without seeming cooperative or out of context at all.

[ohtani's jacket]

The only good thing about that Yamazaki bout is the few times Vader stiffs him for real. Vader's pro-style selling of the Yamazaki's kicks, including that spot where they tumbled over the ropes, is awful, and he can't counter the single piece of matwork (Yamazaki's armbar) in a compelling way. The chokeslam is terrible. Chokeslams have no place in shoot style to begin with, but that wasn't even a good one.

[Goodear]

I never felt Vader bumped too much until he had to put Flair over at Starrcade since I never felt as though Flair could realistically win in that setting with Vader selling his chops being the largest oddity. I decided to take a somewhat random sample of TV matches to see if the bumping is as rampant as some are stating here.

 

Vader vs. Barbarian

 

 

 

 

Commentary is in German so trying to place this in a time lime might be difficult but it looks to me after the Ron Simmons title reign based on Barbarian's gear. Race gets banned from ringside for reasons ... before anyone even locks up. Vader does bump for Barbarian cleanly in that he takes one hit and goes down a couple of times. I have to say that the middle rope catch powerslam spot rears its head here and I wonder if Vader didn't go to that on transition too often.

 

I wonder if Vader was bumping as much as he was because he was matched up against big strong guys so much in WCW like Sting and Simmons who could realistically bump him around?

 

Vader vs. Cactus Jack 03/16/94

 

 

 

 

The ear match according to the Tube, which I've never seen. Vader is much less bump happy hear which may be due to the match going short due to a 25% loss in the ear market. He really only takes two bumps off things Jack does twice and off missed splashes. It still doesn't feel like big man monster bumps with a lot of wobble before the pay off but I don't think anything here was especially over-the-top in terms of making Vader look like a pinball.

 

Vader vs. Pat Rose

 

 

 

 

Vader does a sunset flip. I just saw it going through a match list and wanted to share. Either something awesome because Vader is doing a sunset flip or completely inappropriate because Vader is doing a sunset flip.

 

Vader vs. Hulk Hogan - SuperBrawl V

 

 

 

If anyone knows how to work big guys into wobble sells, it should be Hogan. And he shows that off in the first moments as Hogan sets Vader up to absorb punches and some bitching slaps to the face. Hogan goes as far to take Vader down to the mat with a cross armbreaker before Vader escapes by stepping on his face. Vader gets nothing in the first 3 minutes of the match but gets more over by absorbing everything. Hogan finally gets Vader to take a momentary break by tossing him into the crowd over the guardrail but because Vader tosses the railing away after, he doesn't look out of place. Hogan catches Vader coming though and gets a clothesline out of a corner. Boot to the face and Hogan dumps him over the top with a clothesline.

 

Again Hogan stays on Vader as he gets back in with a number of punches and stands on Vader's head. Eye rake from Hogan but Vader falls on top when Hulk goes for the slam. Vader barge knocks Hogan back down before hitting some short shots to the face. Short arm clothesline and Hogan sort of flops down before saying audibly that Vader is too strong which is an awesome way to get his opponent over. Vaderbomb gets two off a lateral press but a moonsault misses. Hogan pulls Vader out and goes for a chair twice which gets Vader down to a knee. Vader ducks a clothesline and chokeslams Hulkster with a throttle. Elbow drop. Corner beating sets up a vertical suplex for 2 and... Hulk Up. Stuff stuff stuff.

 

Legdrop gets one.

 

One?

 

Referee gets bumped and Vader gets a visual fall off the powerbomb which brings Ric Flair into the ring. Hogan knocks Vader over the top and Flair manages to get Vader disqualified by having Hulk bounce him around.

 

As predicted, Hogan gets a lot out of Vader in terms of pacing and making his bumps matter more than the average. Really smart performance here by both guys as Vader looks good in defeat while eating a lot of stuff from Hogan and selling it properly in terms of ... not selling it?

[Childs]

The only good thing about that Yamazaki bout is the few times Vader stiffs him for real. Vader's pro-style selling of the Yamazaki's kicks, including that spot where they tumbled over the ropes, is awful, and he can't counter the single piece of matwork (Yamazaki's armbar) in a compelling way. The chokeslam is terrible. Chokeslams have no place in shoot style to begin with, but that wasn't even a good one.

 

I just think of UWFI as not really shootstyle, and that clears it right up for me.

[ohtani's jacket]

I can see that. If you view it as just another Japanese pro-wrestling fed then I guess it's a step above SWS. If you're a big Vader fan or even enjoy the fish out of water element I can understand enjoying it. If they were pro style matches in a shoot style vein and completely mind blowing like Hashimoto/Zangiev, I would be all over it.

[NintendoLogic]

Why would anyone give a fuck about him "working different styles"? The greatness of a guy like Vader is his doing basically the same thing everywhere, drawing money, and being over.

 

I agree with this. The fact that he developed a style that worked in pretty much any setting is a strong point in his favor.

[goodhelmet]

 

Yep, Vader was having great matches as early as 1989. He didn't start his great run with the Sting feud.

 

Shit, that 1986 Leon White vs. Hansen match is great.

 

 

That was a great match but I looked at that like the master training the student. It felt like a Stan Hansen match throughout the whole thing. Leon was game and deserves credit but that was all Hansen.

[Alan4L]

watched Vader vs. Tamura at my buddies house today. What a match. The staggering selling he does in this is some of the best I've ever seen. UWFI Vader is becoming a real favourite of mine. Like everyone, I'm a huge fan of his WCW work and what I've seen of him in New Japan and All Japan. Really feels like a guy who I'll have quite high.

[Coffey]

I love Big Van Vader and he'll probably end up pretty high on my list. A lot of his Japan stuff is great. Some of his WCW stuff is pretty good too.

 

Watching a shoot with Honky Tonk Man, he said that Vader was a big guy that refused to work big guy style & instead wanted to get over by doing a lot of stuff that people his size shouldn't be doing and that people didn't think they could do. If Big Van Vader, at 450 lbs, does a Moonsault in the main event, why do you care if "Flyin'" Brian Pillman does a Crossbody in the opener?

 

I think BVV also worked with a lot of tremendously talented opponents that would capable of taking his offense & making it look like death.

 

Dylan makes some interesting points in his devil's advocate post on the first page.

[Childs]

Watching a shoot with Honky Tonk Man, he said that Vader was a big guy that refused to work big guy style & instead wanted to get over by doing a lot of stuff that people his size shouldn't be doing and that people didn't think they could do. If Big Van Vader, at 450 lbs, does a Moonsault in the main event, why do you care if "Flyin'" Brian Pillman does a Crossbody in the opener?

 

That just feels like him reaching for reasons to pick at a guy he didn't like. Vader wasn't supposed to be a run-of-the-mill big man. He was in the main event because he was a remarkable specimen, and he wrestled like a remarkable specimen. I find it extremely hard to believe the stuff he did had any real impact on the way fans viewed lower-card workers. I know that never would have entered my mind. So I hope Honky enjoys his smugness, all the while ignoring the fact he's remembered as a joke where Vader is remembered by many as the greatest big man ever.