Childs Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 He has very little natural talent, aside from tremendous strength. He's a guy who's overcome that--or not, depending on your point of view--through unusual effort. I don't think he fully came into his own in control/confidence until at least '06. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 Cena vs Rene Dupree - Judgment Day 2004 This is the first time I've seen Rene Dupree. I have no idea how good or bad he was usually. Having seen many of the great French heels, he didn't impress in that regard, though I did like his flick of the torso (very Rick Rude/Martel-ish.) Cena's promo was slightly less cringe worthy than the last one, but still a different world from what I like. The match wasn't bad for a midcard level bout. It was highly choreographed and a bit telegraphed at times, but that's what happens when you're working to a script I suppose. As someone else mentioned, I also find it strange how the WWE can look so much like other styles of modern wrestling that are criticised and lambasted yet is somehow championed. The finishing stretches are counterrific the same way that modern New Japan matches are, although in this case there weren't any exciting nearfalls. What's more, I don't think you can argue that the body of the match played any part in the outcome. The bear hug spot was badly worked. Cena didn't time his comeback at all well and they dropped it to head into stretch run and from there it was just button mashing on the controller. It's only 2004 I'm looking at, but I don't see a lot of natural talent from Cena and I don't really see (at this stage) a guy who exhibits the confidence or control that a great worker shows. He's a hard working dude trying his best to stick to the plan. But like I said, Dupree could have been absolutely terrible outside of this and I wouldn't really know. I'd go about *** Dupree was seen as a big time prospect in those days, and was probably only 19 or 20 when that match took place. He's still only 30 years old, which is incredible because his entire North American major league career is very likely behind him, and has been for years. He's now working in the W1 office, as their English language liaison & foreign talent booker. He never met is expectations. He's a pretty dreadful pro wrestler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 Well OJ you wanted the whole picture. Cena wasn't anywhere near the worker he is now when he was a midcarder. Like Childs said it took until about 2006, even though he had some strong performances and some great matches before that. But midcard Cena is a whole different beast. I'm just trying to present an honest overview of his whole career, good, bad or indifferent. That is basically what Cena looked like in 2004. Everything you're looking for - timing, control, confidence, talent - only really comes through when he becomes The Man. I guess in that way he's a fantastic example of a guy growing into his role. And yeah, Dupree was pretty mediocre. In fact the majority of Cena's midcard run was an assembly line of very ordinary opponents - Dupree, a thousand matches with Booker T, rookie Carlito, Jesus, Kenzo fucking Suzuki... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 Don't mind my comments too much. I'm getting a picture for things as I go along and my opinions will probably morph and change into something else by the end. I appreciate the effort you went to in preparing the list and I'm enjoying my daily dose of Cena in my own way even if doesn't seem that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 Find it better to do these things in Microscope OJ, where reviews can get a bit of space from debate. I'll likely watch exactly the same matches when get to Cena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 Find it better to do these things in Microscope OJ, where reviews can get a bit of space from debate. I'll likely watch exactly the same matches when get to Cena. Parv, I probably shouldn't have thrown out such an off the cuff statement without a bit of explanation, sorry about that. Listening to your gripes against Backlund, and Johnny's argument that he was following orders from the back, reminded me a great deal of much Cena debate since about 2008 or so. Many of the comments here have addressed all the problems I have with Cena. It's mainly the shrugging off all the previous selling to go into a very familiar finishing routine. And the refusal to sell any serious repercussions the following night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 I actually give Cena more of a pass here because it's very clear to see what constraints he's working under. I don't buy Johnny's line about Backlund taking instructions from the back at all, and I'm sure he pulled that from his ass in the moment -- and on a show in which he argued that most of the matches on the card were "go out there and give us 15 mintues". If you look at how Bruno and Pedro worked, it's pretty clear that they just worked matches however they wanted to. Pedro worked from underneath: he did it in the early 70s and he did it again during his IC run. I don't believe even for a single mili-second that Vince Sr or whoever else was back there telling Backlund to gobble up opponents -- just wasn't the way operations ran back then. They'd give them the time and the finish and that's about it. And we have matches of Backlund's from Florida and elsewhere with him pulling the same shit, so we're meant to believe Eddie Graham and Inoki were giving him these same instructions too. It's just utter bollocks and deep down, Johnny knows it. Sorry, don't want to detract from Cena chat. Although now we've brought it up, Backlund -- a guy who was on top for a long time, who not all fans bought into -- might not be a bad comparison point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 John Cena is the single name that I'm the most interested in seeing where they finish on the final list. If someone were to put him at number one, I wouldn't argue. John Cena might just be the greatest wrestler of all-time. If we look at body of work, great matches, promos, drawing power/merch sales, longevity, popularity, etc. I mean... he's been really good, for a really long time, on top in the biggest promotion in the world & having great matches with many different wrestlers. I often can't see the forest from the trees but I realize I'm watching greatness with John Cena. Sure, he's had some stinkers & cringe-worthy one-liners but as an overall package, for someone that we can pretty much see the entirety of his career (all in good quality even), Cena is pretty damn great. He's also been booked like a mammoth too and I could see some holding that against him. It's going to come down to what criteria each individual values more than the others but John Cena finishing in the top 10 certainly wouldn't shock me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 John Cena might just be the greatest wrestler of all-time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 I don't think Cena will finish that high because he's such a polarising figure. He'll be in some people's Top 10s, and then some people won't have him listed at all. I don't have much experience with these ballots, but I don't see a guy making the top 10 overall if he's not on every ballot (or at least all but one). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Jimmy, are the bolded matches you recommended before in the 4.75-5 star range in your view? I'd rather watch absolute top end Cena first just to see if it's even worth me continuing. I haven't exactly been low on him so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 I don't think Cena will finish that high because he's such a polarising figure. He'll be in some people's Top 10s, and then some people won't have him listed at all. I don't have much experience with these ballots, but I don't see a guy making the top 10 overall if he's not on every ballot (or at least all but one). Which is what I find so intriguing about it. I also think age plays a big factor too. A fan that's been watching since the 70's is going to have different criteria/perspective than a fan that started in the 80's or 90's. Even if you go back & watch stuff, it's never the same as when you watched it as a kid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Jimmy, are the bolded matches you recommended before in the 4.75-5 star range in your view? I'd rather watch absolute top end Cena first just to see if it's even worth me continuing. I haven't exactly been low on him so far. Not exactly no. My goal with that list for OJ was to list as many different examples as I could to give an overview of Cena the worker, "different" in terms of opponents, styles, situations and quality. So it's not all the best stuff, just what was most representative of the categories I was trying to fill. Leaving out Punk at MITB and Brock at ER because you covered those in the other thread, here's a list of ten of his best matches off the top of my head, just going chronologically: vs JBL - Judgment Day 2005 (I Quit) vs Edge - Unforgiven 2006 (TLC) vs Umaga - Royal Rumble 2007 (Last Man Standing) vs Shawn Michaels - Raw 25th April 2007 vs Bobby Lashley - Great American Bash 2007 vs Randy Orton - Summerslam 2007 vs Big Show - Smackdown 27th Feb 2009 vs Batista - Wrestlemania 26 vs CM Punk - Night of Champions 2012 vs Daniel Bryan - Summerslam 2013 There's a lot of 2007 in there in an "if you don't like Cena in 2007, you probably don't need to keep watching" kind of way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoo Enthusiast Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 I love the diversity of names on that list. Bobby Lashley! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Yeah that match isn't a top 10 Cena match. Like the Khali matches it proves Cena can get something solid out of a shitty opponent but it's more of an argument for Cena having a great performance than the match itself being great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted June 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 The only problem with including Lashley, is that Parv has no idea if Lashley is good or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkookypunk43 Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Maybe I can give some perspective since I am a younger fan. John Cena is a good worker who is a larger than life personality and when he tried on the mic he was one of the best promos I'm the business in my opinion. He always got a reaction no matter if he was loved or hated. Would I love to see a heel run, yes but, he has had an essential role for 15 years. A considerably good draw for what wrestling is now and how it's perceived, Cena is an all time great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 I include the Lashley match because, well firstly I think it is a legitimately great match. But more to the point, it may be Cena's greatest in-ring achievement. Lashley is terrible. Well I dunno what he's up to now but during his WWE career, he was terrible. Mystifyingly so, because he had so many physical tools, but had absolutely no idea how to put them together. In his two year run, at a very workrate-y time (2005-07 Smackdown) he produced almost nothing of value. Finlay lead him by the hand on TV a few times, and the Billionaires match was a fun clusterfuck, but that was it. I mean when El-P gets to December in WWECW and sees what fucking Lashley was doing he will long for the good ol' days of Big Show's reign. Lashley was awful. And then Cena had to get a PPV Main Event out of him. In some ways this is more of an achievement than the Khali match, because at least with a monster heel you can bounce off him and create a spectacle. Here Cena took a guy who had never had even a "really good" match before, and with no gimmicks or bells and whistles, and got a legitimately great face vs face title match out of him. Lashley brought it in this match, don't get me wrong, but it's so far above what he was ever capable of with anyone else in his career as to be mind boggling. Back in the day I used to see a lot of "Cena needs to be carried" around the internet, and I would shake my head every time because like fuck, in the space of like two months he got great matches out of the Great Khali and Bobby fucking Lashley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parties Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 I think after this past Sunday, you could replace Orton, Lashley, or Big Show with Owens part deux. The 20 minute Cena-Cesaro singles from RAW (Feb 2014) could be on a top 10 as well. Cena-Punk (2/25/13, Winner Gets Mania Title Shot Against The Rock) from RAW could be there too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Somehow by we get to Mania next year Cena might be into top 25 easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bierschwale Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 The Mysterio match from 2011 really is a great supersprint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 I tried to restrict myself to ten because I know JVK is only going to want to watch so many matches, but yeah, you could easily make a whole other list that looks legit, they're all good suggestions. vs Umaga, NYR 2007 vs Chris Jericho, Survivor Series 2008 vs Randy Orton, Bragging Rights 2009 (Ironman) vs Rey Mysterio, Raw July 2011 vs The Rock, Wrestlemania 28 vs CM Punk, Raw Feb 2013 vs Cesaro, Raw Feb 2014 vs Bray Wyatt, Payback 2014 (LMS) vs Brock Lesnar, Summerslam 2014 vs Kevin Owens, Elimination Chamber 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Cheers Jimmy, I'll get on this at some point. Maybe Thursday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 I don't think Parv I s going to rate any of those matches very highly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 Well neither do I necessarily, but he asked for the highest quality Cena matches. He liked the Brock match so maybe the rematch or the Umaga match will appeal to him in the same way. I hope he starts with the first list I posted anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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