'Dr. Death' Steve Williams

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[W2BTD]

Love this guy in Japan, pretty much despise him in the U.S., particularly in WCW.

 

When you see how well other mediocre dudes like Johnny Ace, Spivey, etc (I'll be nice to Gordy and leave him out of this) did in All Japan, it makes you wonder if it was just a matter of working in a hot place with great booking & match structures with some of the greatest workers of all time.

[BigBadMick]

Interesting theory, Joe. Although, credit those guys with being tough as hell to last in AJPW too.

[fxnj]

I read a pretty good explanation of that from Meltzer before. When the promotion follows a touring structure with a few weeks off afterwards, you're able to go all out on the big show without worrying about how injured it will leave you. Compare to being booked to work a time limit draw on a PPV then having to do house shows immediately afterwards.

[Childs]

Love this guy in Japan, pretty much despise him in the U.S., particularly in WCW.

 

When you see how well other mediocre dudes like Johnny Ace, Spivey, etc (I'll be nice to Gordy and leave him out of this) did in All Japan, it makes you wonder if it was just a matter of working in a hot place with great booking & match structures with some of the greatest workers of all time.

 

But Doc hit a much higher peak there than Ace or Spivey, who didn't exactly crank out singles classics. I think it was the perfect setting for Doc's power and physicality to translate, but he also deserves credit for not getting lost in the complexity of those matches.

[Coffey]

I love Dr. Death & the more I watch, the more I enjoy him. Talked with Loss some about him on Twitter & he recommended the '96 Carnival match with Taue, so I need to watch that. Posting here so I remember.

 

He doesn't impress me too much in the States but his Japan is SO strong. Just complete embodiment of what I love about Pro-Wrestling. Early-mid 90's AJPW is exactly what appeals to me.

 

It really amazes me how much stamina some of the bigger guys seem to have too. It's not like guys like Big Van Vader, Steve Williams, Stan Hansen, etc. were small dudes! Just crazy.

[goc]

Haven't seen much of his Japan work and I will agree that his WCW stuff during the Watts era is not impressive, but I really liked him in later days UWF as the top babyface. I thought he did a good job projecting that in the ring and he had some very good matches with Terry Gordy and Dick Murdoch. I also liked the Eddie Gilbert match and him running in place while having Gilbert up in a military press is still probably the most impressive feat of strength I've ever seen in a wrestling ring.

[Timbo Slice]

Doc will make my list, but more as a personal favorite than someone whose body of work lines up against the all-time greats. He had a tremendous run in 94 and had some really neat tags earlier in the decade for AJPW, but his US stuff leaves a lot to be desired, sadly. He did have some good stuff in UWF, I'll give him that. He'll be in the bottom part of my list.

[pol]

I'm only up to 93 in my All Japan watching and he only just seems to be getting consistently good. Anyone agree/disagree with that assessment?

[Childs]

No, that's pretty much right. He peaked in '94 and was mostly done as a top worker after his drug bust. But his peak year was really something, one of the best anybody had in the '90s.

[C.S.]

I have to disagree about the WCW Watts era. I thought Williams and Gordy were incredible during that time. Yes, they got the super-push, which probably helped make them look even better in my then-teenage mind, but I remember their moves being awesome, powerful, and impactful. Everything looked "real" for lack of a better word.

[funkdoc]

go back and watch that stuff now and you'll see loads of dull aimless matwork to fill time

 

the doc/gordy team is very high up on my all-time least favorite wrestlers list, though i haven't seen their best AJPW work.

[El-P]

I have to disagree about the WCW Watts era. I thought Williams and Gordy were incredible during that time. Yes, they got the super-push, which probably helped make them look even better in my then-teenage mind, but I remember their moves being awesome, powerful, and impactful. Everything looked "real" for lack of a better word.

 

Agreed. Their matches took some patience, it was a different pace from what was done in the US at the time.

 

That said, Doc didn't really get into his groove until the mid-90's. His peak was short, but absolutely terrific.

[BigBadMick]

Any chance of listing his top 5-10 matches?

[JazeUSA]

go back and watch that stuff now and you'll see loads of dull aimless matwork to fill time

 

the doc/gordy team is very high up on my all-time least favorite wrestlers list, though i haven't seen their best AJPW work.

do you like spot fests or something? That aimless mat work helps tell the story of big man/strong man dominance in the matches

[BillThompson]

Funk's not alone in his viewpoint of the MVC, and Gordy in particular. I love grappling, absolutely love hold for hold exchanges and the like. That being said, the MVC had a bad habit of employing lots of matwork that never went anywhere and never factored into the finish or a hot closing stretch. It's really hard to watch Gordy hold someone in a Chinlock for two minutes and justify it as matwork that is displaying his dominance as opposed to him employing a Chinlock because he's some kind of combination of lazy, uninventive, or lacking in ideas of how to transition in the match.

 

What made it worse with the MVC is that they would go back to the restholds over and over again. Kurt Angle in 2002 employing his Bodylock Chinlock was a resthold and it hurts the match when it doesn't really lead anywhere, but usually he only went to it once and he would find new ways of applying it and the like. With the MVC it was often, "Well, I hoped you liked that Gordy Chinlock from earlier because here comes another one, and don't worry there will be another one ten minutes from now."

[pol]

 

go back and watch that stuff now and you'll see loads of dull aimless matwork to fill time

 

the doc/gordy team is very high up on my all-time least favorite wrestlers list, though i haven't seen their best AJPW work.

do you like spot fests or something? That aimless mat work helps tell the story of big man/strong man dominance in the matches

 

 

Even if that stuff did enhance the story of the match (and I don't think it did), if it isn't interesting in its own right, who cares?

[Graham Crackers]

The only cool Doc/Gordy matwork is in the Steiners match from the Clash of the Champions where they are all sandbagging each other. Way better than their PPV draw.

[Timbo Slice]

Any chance of listing his top 5-10 matches?

8/31/93 vs. Kobashi

4/16/94 vs. Kawada

7/28/94 vs. Misawa

9/3/94 vs. Kobashi

 

That's a good start for now considering I'm on my phone and it's off the top of my head. The final MWC tag title defense against Misawa/Kawda where they drop the belts is really good, forgot the date. I want to say something like January of 1993.

[ohtani's jacket]

The only cool Doc/Gordy matwork is in the Steiners match from the Clash of the Champions where they are all sandbagging each other. Way better than their PPV draw.

 

When is US matwork ever cool?

[Graham Crackers]

 

 

The only cool Doc/Gordy matwork is in the Steiners match from the Clash of the Champions where they are all sandbagging each other. Way better than their PPV draw.

When is US matwork ever cool?

I'm with ya. At least there's a shooty element to those guys sandbagging each other.

[NintendoLogic]

 

Love this guy in Japan, pretty much despise him in the U.S., particularly in WCW.

 

When you see how well other mediocre dudes like Johnny Ace, Spivey, etc (I'll be nice to Gordy and leave him out of this) did in All Japan, it makes you wonder if it was just a matter of working in a hot place with great booking & match structures with some of the greatest workers of all time.

 

But Doc hit a much higher peak there than Ace or Spivey, who didn't exactly crank out singles classics. I think it was the perfect setting for Doc's power and physicality to translate, but he also deserves credit for not getting lost in the complexity of those matches.

 

 

I'd put Ace's 1997 match with Taue above any match Doc had with the possible exception of the one where he won the Triple Crown from Misawa.

 

Anyway, MVC/Steiners is funny because it shows what matwork would look like if wrestling was real. Guy gets a takedown, other guy scrambles for the ropes. Repeat until they get tired of it and start beating the hell out of each other.

[pol]

...and that's why RINGS put a limit on that nonsense

[Loss]

 

I have to disagree about the WCW Watts era. I thought Williams and Gordy were incredible during that time. Yes, they got the super-push, which probably helped make them look even better in my then-teenage mind, but I remember their moves being awesome, powerful, and impactful. Everything looked "real" for lack of a better word.

 

Agreed. Their matches took some patience, it was a different pace from what was done in the US at the time.

 

Question for everyone: does being put in a position to re-educate the fanbase on a new working style impress you enough to consider it when ranking wrestlers? Doc and Gordy weren't successful in getting matwork more over in WCW, but I would blame WCW's revolving door leadership for that more than Doc and Gordy's merits or flaws as workers. Still, I think it's pretty cool that two American wrestlers were training their audience that certain things they never thought mattered actually did matter, for better or for worse. It does sort of feel like almost everyone in the U.S. has been working inside the box more than not since that time. As one example, if Daniel Bryan did more matwork in WWE, it may not get matwork over to the masses, but I'd probably still credit him for trying to push the in-ring style somewhere new if he even tried. That kind of trailblazing is not something many wrestlers can claim in their favor, at least in a positive way.

[Childs]

 

 

I have to disagree about the WCW Watts era. I thought Williams and Gordy were incredible during that time. Yes, they got the super-push, which probably helped make them look even better in my then-teenage mind, but I remember their moves being awesome, powerful, and impactful. Everything looked "real" for lack of a better word.

 

Agreed. Their matches took some patience, it was a different pace from what was done in the US at the time.

 

Question for everyone: does being put in a position to re-educate the fanbase on a new working style impress you enough to consider it when ranking wrestlers?

 

 

I won't give Doc and Gordy credit for it because they were mostly lousy at working holds and didn't actually change much of anything,