Brock Lesnar

[GOTNW]

The Rollins match was good for what it was (if we ignore elements the workers couldn't do anything about) but my main takeaway from it was that Brock made a leap into a holy shit moment and I can't justify claiming there were 100 wrestlers better than him when he can do stuff like that.

[Superstar Sleeze]

Brock Lesnar has such a comprehensive grasp on pro wrestling psychology that it is so disappointing he did not stick around through 2000s. Early Brock is one of the most impressive big bumpers in history. I have a lot more to say once I finish off 2002-2004 watching. Brock is a mortal lock for my top 100. He is just too damn entertaining. Like Rock and Austin to an extent, these guys are like the Sandy Koufaxes of wrestling.

[Slasher]

Brock Lesnar has such a comprehensive grasp on pro wrestling psychology that it is so disappointing he did not stick around through 2000s. Early Brock is one of the most impressive big bumpers in history. I have a lot more to say once I finish off 2002-2004 watching. Brock is a mortal lock for my top 100. He is just too damn entertaining. Like Rock and Austin to an extent, these guys are like the Sandy Koufaxes of wrestling.

The time away from wrestling is what elevated him to near mythical status. A big part of his game is the fact hos presence towers over pretty much everyone. He destroyed their franchise babyface ace like nothing before. He was the one who convincingly ended the Streak after legends like Triple H and Shawn Michaels couldn't put him away even after multiple finishers. If he had stayed feom 2004 to now I can't see WWE being able to elevate him to that level. But then again, his departure is why Vince does the 50/50 booking and hot cold pushes nowadays. So if he stayed we could very well see a couple more true blue main eventers instead of the overcrowded population of upper midcarders/spot main eventers.

[Jingus]

Brock is a walking talking breathing denouncement of modern televised wrestling storytelling formulas. He never wrestles on free TV, he took time off by going to other territories; he never overstays his welcome. He's perfect proof that the WWE's workaholic insistence on keeping everyone constantly on the road every week is a bad idea, in terms other than just taking it easier on the wrestlers' health.

[LariatMMBOPPO]

Brock is a walking talking breathing denouncement of modern televised wrestling storytelling formulas. He never wrestles on free TV, he took time off by going to other territories; he never overstays his welcome. He's perfect proof that the WWE's workaholic insistence on keeping everyone constantly on the road every week is a bad idea, in terms other than just taking it easier on the wrestlers' health.

Now...if he could figure out how to actually draw, he'd be the complete package.

[WingedEagle]

 

Brock is a walking talking breathing denouncement of modern televised wrestling storytelling formulas. He never wrestles on free TV, he took time off by going to other territories; he never overstays his welcome. He's perfect proof that the WWE's workaholic insistence on keeping everyone constantly on the road every week is a bad idea, in terms other than just taking it easier on the wrestlers' health.

Now...if he could figure out how to actually draw, he'd be the complete package.

 

 

Environmental.

[DMJ]

Watching King of the Ring 2002 today, I just finished Lesnar vs. Test.

 

I have to say, I really enjoyed the hell out of it. Super stiff at times with plenty of proof that, months into his career, he not had "It," but had enough "It" to make his opponent look like an absolute monster just by taking it to him. I'm not an encyclopedia of Test knowledge, but I can't name a better Andrew Martin match I've seen, let alone one I'd jump onto a Forums to post a rave review of.

 

There's a bunch of cool moments, including Brock grabbing Test by the hair and clocking the spit out of him with a clothesline, Brock showing remarkable agility that, as far as I know, he hadn't really shown he could do yet by slipping out of some of Test's big moves, and Brock showing just the right amount of emotion to tell a very clear story of a monster getting "tested" against someone his own size for the first time. Even the hiccups worked for me because, with how hard these guys hit eachother, instead of it coming across as "Oh, they forgot the next spot," it read to me as "Oh, they're both trying to shake the cobwebs because neither guy has ever been hit that hard before." The only flaw is the finish which features a wholly unnecessary and oversold bit of BS. Even pre-UFC, there should've been no shame in losing to Lesnar clean, but hey, I'll admit, there is some hindsight at work that makes me think that (I'll admit, I wasn't watching WWE at the time, hence the reason I'm revisiting this stuff, so maybe they really did have a valid reason to try to protect Test).

 

Dave Meltzer gave the thing a half-star.

 

I know I'm hardly as critical or remotely as knowledgeable, but, man, he's off by, at the very least, 2.5 stars. If Lesnar had that same match tomorrow against Titus O'Neill, people would be calling it a low-end MOTY candidate and clamoring for a rematch for the belt.

[GOTNW]

I'm fascinated that someone would actively look for Meltzer's star ratings (maybe this wasn't the case and it's just a bit you happened to remember but w/e) after watching matches. Maybe I'm just too young to give a shit but even when I first started watching great stuff it was a lot more due to the rep of a particular match (Joe-Kobashi, AJ-Daniels-Joe) than one man's star rating.

[Jingus]

Even pre-UFC, there should've been no shame in losing to Lesnar clean, but hey, I'll admit, there is some hindsight at work that makes me think that (I'll admit, I wasn't watching WWE at the time, hence the reason I'm revisiting this stuff, so maybe they really did have a valid reason to try to protect Test).

They might've had some plans for Test at that time, considering that he went on to face Undertaker at Summerslam just a couple months later.

[DMJ]

I'm fascinated that someone would actively look for Meltzer's star ratings (maybe this wasn't the case and it's just a bit you happened to remember but w/e) after watching matches. Maybe I'm just too young to give a shit but even when I first started watching great stuff it was a lot more due to the rep of a particular match (Joe-Kobashi, AJ-Daniels-Joe) than one man's star rating.

I'm just curious what other people say about matches, especially obscure ones that I've never heard anyone mention. Actually, my first stop after watching a match, if I want to read people's take on it, is this website.

 

Going to profightdb (where they have the Meltzer ratings for most of the major shows) and searching for a match is really easy, so, its not like I dug through crates of Observer issues from 13 years ago to find the info.

 

The disparity between how much I enjoyed the match in 2015 and how little a respected wrestling critic liked it in 2002 was interesting to me. If he had given it even 2 stars, I wouldn't have even noted it, but to basically call it a shitty, considerably below average match, when I feel like its somewhat of a hidden gem, was why I felt compelled to mention it.

[DR Ackermann]

I remember going to a house show in 2002 just before Lesnar debuted on TV and he wrestled someone, I think it was Perry Saturn. Anyway, on that same show, Test beat Undertaker. So they probably had hopes and/or plans for him back then.

[Judy Bagwell]

I'd say you're way off on the Mania match being 90% Brock. If anything that was a match split evenly down the line and I'd lean towards Roman being the better worker myself.

indeed

[GOTNW]

I'm not sure how we'd take stuff like that into account but one thing Lesnar is absolutely amazing at are beatdowns and similar brawling segments. The Undertaker pull apart is the most famous one, but any time he gets to wreck someone like that it's pretty great. The one on the post-Wrestlemania Raw was epic as well.

 

Having said that Matt has raised some great points on Brock in the DVDVR March Madness warm-up thread and I'd pretty much have to agree with them all. I think this year has been a pretty clear failure for Lesnar, as he was brought in to do more, and instead of improving the quality of things surrounding him both the quality of his work and his aura suffered. Getting one over on Brock isn't as special as it used to be, his suplexes are treated like Armdrags and the WWE bumping style makes it so that him just throwing people around in three minute matches doesn't have the same entertainment value as Gary Albright doing so.

[Jimmy Redman]

I hear that argument against Brock, but at the same time I just don't care.

 

It's a perfectly logical argument on paper, and I can't argue with that but in reality it's just...wrong, because to me Brock loses nothing working like this and every time he's in a match it's still a special event, and any time he throws a million suplexes it's still awesome. If it was anyone else working like this, I'd agree, but Brock is so special and so overwhelmingly good at being Brock that it throws all logical arguments out the window.

 

It's kind of like how Taker was a mythological being who can kick out of a million finishers...at Wrestlemania. Once a year he turned into a god for a night, able to withstand any death move, and it makes no logical Matt D sense on paper if you try to break down kicking out of a million finishers a match, or try to find linear escalation in matches that basically begin with finishers and go from there, but it made perfect pro wrestling sense in reality.

 

This is where Matt and I fall down.

 

Fastlane was a good reminder for me as to why I'll be ranking Brock as high as I am. He's just something very, very special. One of the most infinitely watchable wrestlers in history. WWE announcers talk about Orton being the "prototypical wrestler" all the time, but Brock is really the guy that you'd build in a lab if you could. He's so big, built like a tank, crazy strong, great wrestling skill, brutal as fuck, athletic, can bump like a cruiser, incredible seller, and has this undeniable presence about him.

[Matt D]

First and foremost: while I appreciate the thoughts being attributed to me, and I was trying to make a reasonable point at the least (if a sophist's one), nothing I say during DVDVR March Madness should taken as an actual belief, especially if I do a pick 'em ballot over there. Then I might be trying to finagle things so that I win. I never win. I usually do great and lead after two rounds and then crash and burn like someone with anger management issues playing Risk. It's like a madman's debate club over there in March.

 

That said, here's what I will go on the record with here about Brock.

 

While his matches are very special in the moment, I think he's harmful to everyone and everything around him over any other term (Short, medium, long). This is mainly for two reasons.

 

Reason #1: He gets to use offense like no one else in the company, thus escalating the stakes, while at the same time, not having that offense actually do more damage. It's not about logic for the sake of logic. It's about internal consistency from match to match and show to show, especially for a part-timer. His German Suplex is presented as both more and less devastating than almost everything in the company does. It's horrific, but guys can still get up after twenty of them, or whatever. That's part of Brock's deal, a lot of immediate-term good but potential long term damage. I also think that his act does have diminishing returns. It wouldn't work if we saw him every week. That's ok, even if it gives him an edge over the rest of the roster. Attractions are attractions. I do think the cracks are starting to show as it becomes more and more self-referential with the suplex city thing though.

 

Reason #2: He in general is presented as superior to the roster, a bigger deal, more invulnerable, more important, an attraction. The problem is, he's also presented as more legitimate. I liken him to early 90s Undertaker. Taker could take more damage, do more damage. His choke was as deadly as anything in the company in fall 91, but at the same time he was presented as less than real. He was fantasy. He was less legitimate than the rest of the roster. A guy like Bret Hart or Ric Flair could look differently competent in comparison, because they were skilled men and not a monster. Brock on the other hand, due to his wrestling and especially MMA background, is presented as MORE real, not less. Therefore, he makes the rest of the roster look less legitimate.

 

Brock feels special every time he's out there, but in part, that's because he's provided the tools and the presentation to make everyone else look less special. If he was better, could he find a way to elevate everyone around him with his specialness? Maybe. Right now he's the world's most potent weapon poorly utilized. I think the most remarkable thing was how over Reigns was at the end of Mania last year, because that was the weapon aimed and used for a purpose. All of that capital Brock had built up in the previous year was being used to make Reigns, and then they didn't go with it.

 

Now then, only part of that actually works against him for the sake of this process. He's not on my ballot, not even in consideration, really. He's a great spectacle. He's got a lot of tools. I think he might have been on my list if he never left. I've been lucky enough to see that spectacle live at least twice, once vs Taker at MSG for a cage match, once in Philly for the Rollins/Cena triple threat. I wouldn't fault someone for having him.

[donsem43]

Had Brock on the bubble for my list so I watched his more recent stuff and now he's off. Basically a more mobile, slightly better selling version of Taz during his ECW Title run. Really needs someone like Cena or Reigns to bump and sell for him to give his stuff any real contextual meaning.

[Judy Bagwell]

How so? Brock Lesnar can have that match with a dozen other people. Roman Reigns can't have that match with anyone else.

Brock has the "same match" with a dozen people, by this point its getting old watching the guy stiff more talented wrestlers and suplex them 30 times a match.

[Childs]

Had Brock on the bubble for my list so I watched his more recent stuff and now he's off. Basically a more mobile, slightly better selling version of Taz during his ECW Title run. Really needs someone like Cena or Reigns to bump and sell for him to give his stuff any real contextual meaning.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Doesn't any guy with big offense need opponents to bump and sell for him?

[Jingus]

Basically a more mobile, slightly better selling version of Taz during his ECW Title run.

This sounds like a tremendous compliment to me. "He's like a wrestler who was very popular and over at the time, who perfectly held the toughest audience in the country in the palm of his hand, except without the worst flaws that guy had."

 

Really, the only knock I have against Brock at this point is "okay, you don't need to do THAT MANY German suplexes in EVERY match, you're watering down the individual impact of each one". But otherwise, he's freaking amazing. He's the best squasher of the modern era, bar none, in a time when seemingly everyone else has forgotten how to just squash the shit out of someone else and make yourself look like a monster. He comes off as believable and legit in a way that hardly anyone else does. The same way people used to talk about the original Sheik in terms of "that guy was just scary, nobody would even think about trying to fuck with him, you know he'd hurt you really really bad", I think Brock has that same sort of aura of credibility and danger which is sorely lacking in today's prefab IKEA-assembled cookie-cutter product.

[MoS]

The one point where I seem to disagree with most people here is the Lesnar-Angle ironman. Most people here consider it a pretty bad match, while I think it's actually the best 60-minute Ironman match WWE has ever done. I would be curious to see what the specific criticisms of the match are.

[donsem43]

It might be because I watched a few of his matches back to back but his offense became monotonous at a point. It just becomes "Well what type of suplex is he going to do and how far is going to through him." He doesn't put much, if any, reason or build into what he's doing he just starts doing it cause it's Suplex City time. He's a good entertaining wrestler but this is what keeps me from seeing him as great.

[Matt D]

He'd make my 300.

[BigBadMick]

I'll be curious to see what everyone makes of his April 2016 to April 2020 (he hasn't worked since, right?) work.

Interesting work with Balor, Bryan, Styles, Joe and Goldberg. Less successful results with Rollins, Reigns and Stroman.

Oh, and Rumble 2020.....

[Boss Rock]

I need to revisit his initial WWE run and his brief run in Japan. His 2012-2020 run is filled with matches I love and matches I hate. At his best, he is the absolute attraction WWE would promote him as. The Cena 2012 match is the only one I would consider a classic, but the Punk, A.J, Bryan, Finn, 2015 Reigns, and Goldberg matches are all very good to great. At his worst, he's either incredibly lazy and selfish (Braun, Ambrose,  2018 Reigns), limited to dumb finisher/kick-out fests (also 2018 Reigns, Drew), or saddled with Triple H at his most Triple H. If he does make my list I don't think he makes the top 50, but he's also not someone I'm completely ruling out.

[El Dragon]

9 minutes ago, BigBadMick said:

I'll be curious to see what everyone makes of his April 2016 to April 2020 (he hasn't worked since, right?) work.

Interesting work with Balor, Bryan, Styles, Joe and Goldberg. Less successful results with Rollins, Reigns and Stroman.

Oh, and Rumble 2020.....

Lesnar is interesting because I generally agree with Matt D's criticisms of his style while also always finding myself engaged in his big matches when he's fully into them. I also think the 2020 Rumble performance was generally about as good and fun of a Rumble showcase ever. It was such a fun divergence of the usual Rumble tropes and I think it hit it completely out of the park. Brock I think will be in a similar position he was last time for me. I can't see him NOT making my list, because he does bring something truely unique and I credit him for that. But the frustrations with him are justified, and I'm not sure I can go top 50 for him.