John Cena vs. Bret Hart

[JerryvonKramer]

 

OJ, would still like to know more about your Backlund comment. I can take that post in two or three different ways.

 

Backlund came from a legit amateur background and had a completely different style of working. There's that weird promo before one of the Adonis matches where he equates working a match to baking a cake, so let's call it a cake baking style. He worked a slow build style adding more and more ingredients or layers to the mix. I don't think Cena is anywhere near as slow or deliberate. Jerome says he's the best possible Hogan, but I think he may be a better Sting.

Right, yeah totally different styles. But they have some odd similarities none-the-less: disliked by hardcore fans, mixed reactions from crowds, pushed by the office regardless, good box office regardless, some awkward tendencies in the ring, and put in enough main event situations over a long period of time to have great matches to their name despite those similarities.

 

My point was more that in terms of quality and GWE candicacy, I see Cena as being in the same sort of ball park as Backlund. Bret is at least a league above them in my book. Not just a style bias on my part, I just think he's a better worker all round.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Does Cena really have escalating finishers? Okay, he has the super-AA, but he rarely busts that out. It's usually just repeated AAs or STFs. Bret was a guy who didn't really have a knock-out shot, but had a wealth of wrestling knowledge to fall back on if his chosen finish didn't work. I guess if he came around now he might have a signature pinfall finish, but I don't think it was really prevalent back then to have more than one finisher.

 

Bret would never do anything as stupid as a springboard stunner, which is another reason he takes this easily for me.

[BillThompson]

Why do people dislike the Springboard Stunner so much? I'm usually one of the people who shakes his head at stupid or silly moves, but the Springboard Stunner doesn't bother me at all.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't think it looks very good, but it doesn't kill a match for me either.

 

One thing I've thought about today is whether or not it is even fair to categorize Bret as an ace. As a character I think that's how he presented himself, but I'm not sure the company ever quite saw him that way, or if they did it was for a brief period of time and only out of necessity. In that sense I wonder if the way he carried himself was really in line with how the company saw him. To me he sort of worked like a t.v. champion with a bigger push/longer matches. That's not a knock in and of itself but it just feels weird given Bret's verbal schtick and the way the announcers talked about him.

 

In terms of working like an ace/"World Champion"/true top dog, I don't think's even in the same league as someone like current AJ Styles, but maybe that's not really a fair criticism to levy against him.

[Loss]

I love the springboard stunner.

[Matt D]

I like the fact that Bret beat people with wrestling. I'm generally okay with that.

 

That said, I'm not one to bring up the ace argument often except for in talking how great Christian was in 2009.

[JAC]

One thing I've thought about today is whether or not it is even fair to categorize Bret as an ace. As a character I think that's how he presented himself, but I'm not sure the company ever quite saw him that way, or if they did it was for a brief period of time and only out of necessity. In that sense I wonder if the way he carried himself was really in line with how the company saw him. To me he sort of worked like a t.v. champion with a bigger push/longer matches. That's not a knock in and of itself but it just feels weird given Bret's verbal schtick and the way the announcers talked about him.

 

In terms of working like an ace/"World Champion"/true top dog, I don't think's even in the same league as someone like current AJ Styles, but maybe that's not really a fair criticism to levy against him.

 

I don't think Bret was ever meant to be the ace in that way. Hogan, Cena and Sammartino were all guys who were presented as being unbeatable superheroes. Same with Austin, to a large extent. They were larger than life characters who stood head and shoulders above the rest. They were also practically unbeatable unless their opponents engaged in illegal shenanigans. Bret was more "first among equals" with the rest of the top of the card. He was the best, but could still be beat. Shawn was the same way. You didn't see them kicking out of their opponents' finishers, and they could sometimes lose cleanly without their opponents having to cheat.

 

It struck me that the WWF had moved away from the Superman mould at the time Bret was on top; after Hogan, I don't think the WWF had a true Superman-style ace again until Austin. Bret was in the same mould as Savage, Flair and Michaels. In contrast, Cena conforms more closely to the Superman mould.

[JRGoldman]

This seems to boil down to people who are offended by the WWE's modern main event style, and thus are offended by Cena as the clearest extension of said style. those of us that can stomach this style or even care for it favor Cena. I fall pretty firmly in the latter camp, and I don't think it's very close as others have said. I think Cena's best match is better than Bret's, I think his top five are as a whole better than Bret's, and I think his peak as a worker has lasted longer. While no one here has used it as a criticism, I think that some of the things that Cena is docked for (like an over reliance on a specific finishing sequence) are things that Bret has also been guilty of. I think both guys were way more giving than most "aces", although Bret was giving almost out of necessity while with Cena it strikes me as a more conscious choice.

 

I also don't think it's terribly fair to call Cena a "system quarterback", because it implies that anyone could have equal or roughly equivalent success in the same position and I don't think that is true at all. I actually think that it's so untrue that it has informed Cena's character over the past few years. Cena character wise is almost like an American late period Misawa, this grizzled vet who doesn't particularly want to be the ace anymore, but people still can't beat him even though he's slipping. Cena being able to layer that in to his usual formula made the Punk, Bryan and even Lesnar matches way better than they might have been in a vacuum.

[goc]

The criticism about Cena and his finisher spamming is fair now but it's not something he has been doing his entire career. Looking at the matches that JVK has gone back to watch, it's understandable that you would have that criticism of him in his biggest matches against other guys seen at his level such as the Punk & Lesnar matches.

 

But it's the smaller stuff from 2006 & 2007 that established his finishers are game enders for years prior. To get a fuller picture of Cena you have to throw in something like Cena vs. Umaga from NYR 07 or Khali from ONS 07 where Cena goes against people built as unstoppable monsters but still go down to the FU/AA or even tap out to the STF.

[C.S.]

Only on this board would Cena be winning a poll against Bret, LOL.

 

I'm no Cena hater (I respect his hard work and long list of good matches), but Bret smokes him in almost every possible way.

 

- Bret is more believable in the ring: Everything Bret did looked crisp and realistic. Compare that to Cena's STFU, which it seems like he's barely applying. The move looks looser than Missy Hyatt or Ric Flair after a few drinks.

 

- Bret's feuds were more heated: Shawn Michaels, Jerry Lawler, etc. You felt Bret really hated them (and in Shawn's case, he did). Even the family feuds with Owen and Bulldog were intense. Cena has rarely (rarely, not never) come close to that level of fire, passion, and emotion in any of his feuds.

 

- Mic skills: You could make the case for Cena, and when he cuts a serious promo, I'll concede that he's better than Bret. Unfortunately, he's rarely allowed to show that side of himself. So, even with Bret not being the strongest talker, I still think he edges out Cena most of the time. You can say things are different in today's PG environment, Bret never had to be the company ace and pander to kids like Cena does, etc. Fine. All true. Circumstances favor Bret. His "victory" in this category - if you can call it that - is admittedly hollow at best.

 

- Lesser opponents: I'm open to being proven wrong on this one, but could Cena get the most out of, say, Jean Pierre LaFitte and Isaac Yankem the way Bret did? I'm not so sure. (And yes, I'm waiting for someone to post about Cena vs. Kane now, LOL.) Then again, until recently, Cena hasn't really had much of an opportunity to show this side of himself. No petty, spoiled, insecure, drug-sniffing Kliq to bury him behind the scenes.

 

- Drawing Power: I'll call this one a tie. Both won their first World Titles after big boom periods had ended and things were more lukewarm or downright ice cold. I'm assuming Bret ended up drawing bigger numbers with Shawn in '97 (Attitude Era), and I'll assume the same for some of Cena's bigger matches (Rock). But in general, they were the captains during down periods for the company. How much worse would it have been without them though? Who knows...

 

- Five Moves of Doom: I'm old enough to remember where this term really originated on the internet - and it was with Bret Hart back in the '90s. At that time, the Five Moves of Doom referred to Bret's seemingly unchanging final sequence of moves: inverted atomic drop, Russian legsweep, backbreaker, elbowdrop from the second rope, and the Sharpshooter. Since then, the phrase has been butchered to mean that Cena "only has five moves" (which is not actually the case, of course). This is not a point for or against Bret or Cena, just some fun "trivia" I decided to throw into my post.

[WingedEagle]

CS, I have no doubt you think Bret comes out on top in all of those fields. That's awesome. But its also possible that folks here and in other corners of the world happen to find Cena's work product over the course of his career superior.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'd take Bret's sit down locker room interviews over Cena's raps any day of the week. Bret's delivery wasn't the greatest, but he always chose his words carefully. Does Cena even have a famous promo? I'm mostly familiar with his promo work from pre-match hype videos and I've seen anything that came close to the pre-match interviews for Bret/Diesel at Survivor Series '95. Add to that Bret's heel work, including the famous mic spot where he snapped, and it seems like a no contest.

[Bierschwale]

Lesser opponents: I'm open to being proven wrong on this one, but could Cena get the most out of, say, Jean Pierre LaFitte

 

I'd say that he's better than his mentor, but it's funny that you bring this up when we just saw Cena & Kevin Owens have an MOTYC (and at minimum, a significantly better match than Bret-JPL, a match that I like a great deal). I think that Cena-Ouellet would absolutely be a better match than Bret-Owens.

[C.S.]

CS, I have no doubt you think Bret comes out on top in all of those fields. That's awesome. But its also possible that folks here and in other corners of the world happen to find Cena's work product over the course of his career superior.

 

And that's fine. I tried to stick to the facts as much as possible, and I think I made a pretty good case for Bret, but everything I posted was ultimately my opinion.

 

 

I'd take Bret's sit down locker room interviews over Cena's raps any day of the week. Bret's delivery wasn't the greatest, but he always chose his words carefully. Does Cena even have a famous promo? I'm mostly familiar with his promo work from pre-match hype videos and I've seen anything that came close to the pre-match interviews for Bret/Diesel at Survivor Series '95. Add to that Bret's heel work, including the famous mic spot where he snapped, and it seems like a no contest.

 

Pretty much this. I'm in complete agreement.

 

 

Lesser opponents: I'm open to being proven wrong on this one, but could Cena get the most out of, say, Jean Pierre LaFitte

 

I'd say that he's better than his mentor, but it's funny that you bring this up when we just saw Cena & Kevin Owens have an MOTYC (and it minimum, a significantly better match than Bret-JPL, a match that I like a great deal). I think that Cena-Oullet would absolutely be a better match than Bret-Owens.

 

 

Are you really comparing a lower midcarder like Pierre to someone like Kevin Owens who has headlined every fed he's been in? Come on...

 

Or I misunderstanding your point completely?

[Quentin Skinner]

Cena has a good amount of great promos, but the usually follow the same pattern so none really stand out. He has a really good delivery and that's carried him even when maybe his actual content was lacking.

[WingedEagle]

I know Bret was considered a solid promo in his time, but was he really that otherworldly? Cena came along after the peak of the 15 minute promo and while he rarely crushes it -- outside of when he stops the pandering and turns really serious (very rare occasions, which I unfortunately can't name on recall but know there are a handful) -- I think he just as rarely if ever craps the bed. He just does a very good job at something that everyone has been and is doing for nearly a couple decades now. Bret was there before and while that trend was developing. He then also got out before it became overkill. Work a little time travel magic and Bret's routine may very well look like the same old tired routine every week.

[Bierschwale]

I'm saying that Owens, while not a dead ringer, is the closest comparison to Ouellet that there can be from having trained under him in the Quebec indies and being so physically similar. Card status is irrelevant in that comparison (and because Cena has always shined in midcard showcase matches).

[Jimmy Redman]

Not that it's really relevant to a work-based discussion anyway, but Cena and Bret are not equal as draws.

[Matt D]

Bret's big in Germany though!

[C.S.]

I know Bret was considered a solid promo in his time, but was he really that otherworldly?

 

Nah, and I certainly wasn't suggesting that.

 

I'm saying that Owens, while not a dead ringer, is the closest comparison to Ouellet that there can be from having trained under him in the Quebec indies and being so physically similar. Card status is irrelevant in that comparison (and because Cena has always shined in midcard showcase matches).

 

Ah, I understand now. Yeah, that makes sense. Didn't realize Pierre trained Owens. That's a pretty cool fact. I'm a big Pierre fan, BTW.

 

My point was, midcard filler matches and all that entails vs. main event matches.

 

I like what Cena is doing now with the U.S. Title against midcarders, but he still has a ways to go (IMO) before he can reach Bret, who had to drag passable matches out of Yankem, Virgil, Skinner, etc.

 

Not that it's really relevant to a work-based discussion anyway, but Cena and Bret are not equal as draws.

 

I'd say they're both pretty close. We can probably both churn out irrelevant minutiae like Vince Russo does to make our case for one or the other.

 

Someone could trot out, "Well, Cena has more merchandise available than Bret did, so he sells more," but Kevin Owens probably has more merch than Bret did too.

 

We can get into anal comparisons that ignore how many things have changed between Bret's time and now, but when it comes down to it, I don't think there's any kind of wide disparity between Cena's drawing power and Bret's.

 

Either way, even if it's proven that Cena is a much better draw (and it's one of the talking points I care least about because neither of them are/were awesome draws), I still think Bret smokes him in many other categories. Doesn't have to be a clean sweep or anything like that for me to justify my position.

 

Edit: Removed a point about the OP after misreading it.

[Eduardo]

Wasn't Hart's lack of finishes involving his finisher partially due to the way the pro wrestling world viewed submissions at the time? If he came along ten years later, we would probably have a lot more matches with him beating stars with the Sharpshooter. I guess one can criticize Hart for picking a submission hold as his finisher, knowing there would be some limitations, but I thought he did best with what he could at the time, in terms of finishes for a good chunk of his major matches.

 

EDIT: Also, I think this is actually a really close call for me. Still undecided, but I think the best match either guy was involved in was probably Hart-Austin SS 96.

 

EDIT: EDIT:

 

 

We can get into anal comparisons that ignore how many things have changed between Bret's time and now, but when it comes down to it, I don't think there's any kind of wide disparity between Cena's drawing power and Bret's.

 

I don't see any way Hart is anywhere near as close to Cena when it comes to drawing. At all. Is Hart even in Mysterio's level as a draw? Italy, Spain > Germany, or whatever, no se.

[NintendoLogic]

My understanding is that the Sharpshooter was basically forced on him. The way Bret tells it in his book, Pat Patterson came up to him one day and asked him if he knew how to do a scorpion deathlock. He didn't, so he had Konnan of all people teach it to him, and the rest is history.

 

As for Cena's promo ability, I think he's outstanding when he cuts calm serious promos. The problem is that 99% of the time, he's either insufferably jokey or screaming at the top of his lungs to try to convey intensity.

[soup23]

Bret and cena as draws is not close and I can't see an argument for hart in that regard

[JerryvonKramer]

My understanding is that the Sharpshooter was basically forced on him. The way Bret tells it in his book, Pat Patterson came up to him one day and asked him if he knew how to do a scorpion deathlock. He didn't, so he had Konnan of all people teach it to him, and the rest is history.

Konnan was hanging around in WWF then?!

[El-P]

 

My understanding is that the Sharpshooter was basically forced on him. The way Bret tells it in his book, Pat Patterson came up to him one day and asked him if he knew how to do a scorpion deathlock. He didn't, so he had Konnan of all people teach it to him, and the rest is history.

Konnan was hanging around in WWF then?!

 

 

Max Moon was designed for him.