John Tenta vs Steve Williams

[Grimmas]

Parv and I had a mini discussion that compared Dr. Death to Earthquake, but we didn't really get into it on the last All Japan Excite Series podcast.

 

I thought I would bring it up here.

[JerryvonKramer]

- Ability to take a DDT from the railings to the concrete.

 

1-0 Williams

 

- Ability to deliver a scoop powerslam.

 

1-1

 

Ooooh, it's close. Everything to play for in this thread.

[goodhelmet]

It's not even close. Dr. Death was much better and will be on my Top 100. I enjoy Tenta but he doesn't have one single classic match you can turn to even if he was part of some memorable angles.

[Mad Dog]

Not even close. Tenta is underrated but Williams was really good for a really long time. I don't think I've seen a Tenta match that touches Williams best stuff.

[Grimmas]

Not even close. Tenta is underrated but Williams was really good for a really long time. I don't think I've seen a Tenta match that touches Williams best stuff.

If you put prime Tenta in All Japan in 93-96 would that still be the same?

[kjh]

It would have been interesting to see how Tenta would have progressed if he had stayed in Japan longer. Can't see Tenta ever getting as good as Williams was in his mid '90s All Japan peak.

[JerryvonKramer]

The weirdest thing to me about Williams is that he is good 85-6 in Mid-South / UWF but then fucking terrible in JCP -- and that's not just because of how he was booked. He sucked in a lot of matches.

 

Then he gets better again. Although I do think he's limited overall and probably won't make my top 100.

[Grimmas]

I would take the Earthquake-Bossman series (in WWF) over any Dr. Death series outside of him in All Japan.

[WingedEagle]

 

Not even close. Tenta is underrated but Williams was really good for a really long time. I don't think I've seen a Tenta match that touches Williams best stuff.

If you put prime Tenta in All Japan in 93-96 would that still be the same?

 

 

If you take any average or better worker in their prime and put them in 93-96 AJPW with main event opportunities they will almost assuredly have a few great matches or classics under their belt. If not, they're pretty awful. Not sure traveling time to All Japan does anyone any favors.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

Not even close. Tenta is underrated but Williams was really good for a really long time. I don't think I've seen a Tenta match that touches Williams best stuff.

If you put prime Tenta in All Japan in 93-96 would that still be the same?

 

If you take any average or better worker in their prime and put them in 93-96 AJPW with main event opportunities they will almost assuredly have a few great matches or classics under their belt. If not, they're pretty awful. Not sure traveling time to All Japan does anyone any favors.

 

This was really the talking point on the show. I asked "Who could you replace Williams with in that match with Kobashi and still have a similar result?"

 

We ran through some alternatives. And then Steven randomly brought up Tenta. For the record, I don't think Tenta could have had a ****1/2 match with Kobashi.

[Matt D]

He could have the world's best ***1/2 match with him though.

 

Is the world's best ***1/2 match better than the world's worst **** match?

 

That's a deep question if you think about it.

[WingedEagle]

 

 

 

Not even close. Tenta is underrated but Williams was really good for a really long time. I don't think I've seen a Tenta match that touches Williams best stuff.

If you put prime Tenta in All Japan in 93-96 would that still be the same?

 

If you take any average or better worker in their prime and put them in 93-96 AJPW with main event opportunities they will almost assuredly have a few great matches or classics under their belt. If not, they're pretty awful. Not sure traveling time to All Japan does anyone any favors.

 

This was really the talking point on the show. I asked "Who could you replace Williams with in that match with Kobashi and still have a similar result?"

 

We ran through some alternatives. And then Steven randomly brought up Tenta. For the record, I don't think Tenta could have had a ****1/2 match with Kobashi.

 

 

I can't imagine Kobashi pulling out 4.5 stars from Tenta, because I can't see Quake in any way delivering the type of performance Dr. Death did. But do I think Kobashi, Kawada, Misawa & co. could put together the best match we'd have ever seen from Tenta? Absolutely. They were that good.

[Grimmas]

 

 

Not even close. Tenta is underrated but Williams was really good for a really long time. I don't think I've seen a Tenta match that touches Williams best stuff.

If you put prime Tenta in All Japan in 93-96 would that still be the same?

 

 

If you take any average or better worker in their prime and put them in 93-96 AJPW with main event opportunities they will almost assuredly have a few great matches or classics under their belt. If not, they're pretty awful. Not sure traveling time to All Japan does anyone any favors.

 

My point is, I think Williams had such a huge advantage in that environment and if Williams wasn't in AJPW would anybody think of him as a great worker?

[JerryvonKramer]

My point is, I think Williams had such a huge advantage in that environment and if Williams wasn't in AJPW would anybody think of him as a great worker?

I agree with this, even if I don't agree that Tenta could have stood in for him.

 

I reckon you could stick Mike Rotunda in there though and he'd have a string of ****+ matches to his name. Or Terry Taylor. Or any guy who could in any way go.

[goc]

I liked Steve Williams a whole lot during his run as the top guy in UWF. Would have been interesting to see how he would have progressed as a top babyface in the U.S. if the UWF had been able to keep things going.

[El McKell]

 

Is the world's best ***1/2 match better than the world's worst **** match?

 

 

 

If it is I think you need to adjust how you give out star ratings.

[Mad Dog]

 

 

Not even close. Tenta is underrated but Williams was really good for a really long time. I don't think I've seen a Tenta match that touches Williams best stuff.

If you put prime Tenta in All Japan in 93-96 would that still be the same?

No. I think Williams was a much better athlete than Tenta and I also think he had a better arsenal of moves that fit the All Japan style better. I think Tenta would have worked okay because he didn't seem afraid to work snug to make his stuff good but it wouldn't have worked at the same level as Williams.

[ohtani's jacket]

If Tenta could have had all these great matches in mid-90s All Japan then how come Albright didn't? Williams not only held up his end of matches but grew as a worker in the promotion. Don't agree with this "plug and play" theory at all.

[Dylan Waco]

Tenta is a guy who under delivered largely because of booking. Williams is a guy who under delivered because he was really inconsistent. I think Williams was better on merit, but he's also overrated, and one of the more disappointing wrestlers ever in the sense that at his best he was an all timer, but when he was bad he fucked sucked.

[Grimmas]

If Tenta could have had all these great matches in mid-90s All Japan then how come Albright didn't? Williams not only held up his end of matches but grew as a worker in the promotion. Don't agree with this "plug and play" theory at all.

Tenta was better than Albright, also that is not what I was saying. Williams` resume was greatly padded by his opponents and most wrestlers would have more great matches in that environment than without it. Look at Johnny Ace.

[jdw]

 

 

 

Not even close. Tenta is underrated but Williams was really good for a really long time. I don't think I've seen a Tenta match that touches Williams best stuff.

If you put prime Tenta in All Japan in 93-96 would that still be the same?

 

If you take any average or better worker in their prime and put them in 93-96 AJPW with main event opportunities they will almost assuredly have a few great matches or classics under their belt. If not, they're pretty awful. Not sure traveling time to All Japan does anyone any favors.

 

This was really the talking point on the show. I asked "Who could you replace Williams with in that match with Kobashi and still have a similar result?"

 

We ran through some alternatives. And then Steven randomly brought up Tenta. For the record, I don't think Tenta could have had a ****1/2 match with Kobashi.

 

 

Bossman had the match with Kobashi that I linked to in the other thread. It was a month and a half after the famous Williams-Kobashi match.

 

Go watch that Kobashi-Bossman match.

 

It got just ** from Dave, though I happened to enjoy it more both then and now relative to that snowflake level.

 

That's level of work is kind of what the promotion expected out of a Upper Card Fat Guy in the mid-90s in All Japan.

 

Does anyone think that peak Tenta could have had that match with Kobashi? Bumping, selling, as active as Bossman?

 

It's also worth remember: Kobashi was the easiest of the Four Corners for a big fat guy like Bossman or Tenta to work with, especially at that time.

 

That setting aside that Tenta was "available" in this period, and had a background in All Japan. He actually was younger than Doc. All Japan didn't make a big push to get him.

 

* * * * *

 

Have no idea who could have replaced Doc at the time, but it wouldn't be someone like Tenta.

 

Vader of course could have, but Baba seemed to not want to disrupt his gaijin hierarchy at that point.

[Grimmas]

Is Bossman clearly better than Tenta, is that what you are suggesting?

I love both guys and I wouldn't know who to pick, unless you go by great match theory.

You can't use great match theory with Tenta, because at no point in his career was that his goal. His goal was to be a giant asshole prick who sat on you and was unmoveable.Tenta played that up great and looked awesome doing it. It's almost impossible to think what Tenta would had looked like in AJPW, because he never really tried that great match style. Bossman, WIlliams, Johnny Ace all got to do that and are not perceived better for it.

[jdw]

Is Bossman clearly better than Tenta, is that what you are suggesting?

 

In an mid-90s All Japan context?

 

Sure.

 

 

I love both guys and I wouldn't know who to pick, unless you go by great match theory.

 

 

I could really give a shit about great match theory meme. I mean... was the match I pointed to a Great Fucking Match?

 

No.

 

But it is an All Japan Match (the promotion being talking about in the subthread) in the mid-90s (the period being talked about) against Kobashi (one of those pesky natives). I picked a relevant match within a month and a half of Doc's most famous match (among idiot hardcore fans like ourselves).

 

If I wanted to go Great Match Theory with Bossman, I'd roll out some non-sequitur match like Bossman vs Hogan in their cage matches that was in a different promotion in a different period against someone who wasn't Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi and Taue.

 

 

You can't use great match theory with Tenta, because at no point in his career was that his goal. His goal was to be a giant asshole prick who sat on you and was unmoveable.

 

 

How many wrestlers career goal was Great Match Theory?

 

Seriously, who comes up with tropes like this. It was idiots like ourselves who came up with nonsensical terms like Great Match Theory (or My Turn, Your Turn to be equal opportunity in mentioning nonsensical terms) to explain some bullshit that *we* are seeing, be it in the Work or in our own circular discussions about Work. The vast majority of wrestlers that we're talking about would see us tossing out phrases like Great Match Theory and wonder what in the fuck are we talking about.

 

So no. Tenta, Doc, Bossman and the lot of them didn't have the goal of Great Match Theory because it's a meaningless concept to them.

 

 

Tenta played that up great and looked awesome doing it.

 

 

That good.

 

 

So exactly how many main eventers in All Japan in the mid-90s were Big Fat Guy Dicks Who Sat On People?

 

Before someone points out, "just because there weren't any doesn't mean that All Japan Marks in the mid-90s wouldn't eat it up if the were fed it", does anyone seriously think that? I'd again point to the Bossman-Kobashi match: in his second tour in All Japan in that era, Bossman is working an All Japan match. Why? Likely because it's what people told him, be it the gaijin who were over (Hansen, Doc, the Can-Ams), or the promotions, or the natives communicated it with him on what they could do together. Bossman worked that same style on his third and last series of that run, and fans seemed to like it.

 

 

It's almost impossible to think what Tenta would had looked like in AJPW, because he never really tried that great match style.

 

 

It doesn't seem very likely that in 1993-96 that Tenta could have worked the Fay Guy Stylings that Vader, Bigelow and Boosman did. He just didn't have the athletic ability to do it.

 

 

Bossman, WIlliams, Johnny Ace all got to do that and are not perceived better for it.

 

 

Really?

 

People who have looked at all of Bossman's career tend to give him credit for his 1993 trip through All Japan:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/12606-mitsuharu-misawa-kenta-kobashi-vs-steve-williams-big-boss-man-ajpw-real-world-tag-league-112493

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/12622-toshiaki-kawada-akira-taue-vs-steve-williams-big-boss-man-ajpw-real-world-tag-league-120193

 

And are still talking about it when he gets back to the US:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/12658-rick-rude-vs-the-boss-wcw-saturday-night-121893

 

He has another 12 tv matches from his three series in All Japan that year if people want to check him out. Some good, some not so good, but against a variety of guys.

 

Anyway... people who watched Bossman at the time and were seeing his 1993 All Japan stuff perceived him better for it.

 

With Doc, of course people perceived Doc's work better for his time in All Japan. Are there people who think that his work peaked at some point other than 8/93 - 3/95 after Gordy overdosed and before the Narita Nightmare?

 

As far as Ace, does anyone give a shit about his career in the US? It largely was a joke. Most perception of Ace being in good matches and at least carrying his end of the bargain tends to come from his All Japan work in the 90s.

 

So... maybe you mean something else with that sentence.

[Grimmas]

 

Is Bossman clearly better than Tenta, is that what you are suggesting?

 

In an mid-90s All Japan context?

 

Sure.

 

 

 

I love both guys and I wouldn't know who to pick, unless you go by great match theory.

 

 

I could really give a shit about great match theory meme. I mean... was the match I pointed to a Great Fucking Match?

 

No.

 

But it is an All Japan Match (the promotion being talking about in the subthread) in the mid-90s (the period being talked about) against Kobashi (one of those pesky natives). I picked a relevant match within a month and a half of Doc's most famous match (among idiot hardcore fans like ourselves).

 

If I wanted to go Great Match Theory with Bossman, I'd roll out some non-sequitur match like Bossman vs Hogan in their cage matches that was in a different promotion in a different period against someone who wasn't Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi and Taue.

 

 

You can't use great match theory with Tenta, because at no point in his career was that his goal. His goal was to be a giant asshole prick who sat on you and was unmoveable.

 

 

How many wrestlers career goal was Great Match Theory?

 

Seriously, who comes up with tropes like this. It was idiots like ourselves who came up with nonsensical terms like Great Match Theory (or My Turn, Your Turn to be equal opportunity in mentioning nonsensical terms) to explain some bullshit that *we* are seeing, be it in the Work or in our own circular discussions about Work. The vast majority of wrestlers that we're talking about would see us tossing out phrases like Great Match Theory and wonder what in the fuck are we talking about.

 

So no. Tenta, Doc, Bossman and the lot of them didn't have the goal of Great Match Theory because it's a meaningless concept to them.

 

 

Tenta played that up great and looked awesome doing it.

 

 

That good.

 

 

So exactly how many main eventers in All Japan in the mid-90s were Big Fat Guy Dicks Who Sat On People?

 

Before someone points out, "just because there weren't any doesn't mean that All Japan Marks in the mid-90s wouldn't eat it up if the were fed it", does anyone seriously think that? I'd again point to the Bossman-Kobashi match: in his second tour in All Japan in that era, Bossman is working an All Japan match. Why? Likely because it's what people told him, be it the gaijin who were over (Hansen, Doc, the Can-Ams), or the promotions, or the natives communicated it with him on what they could do together. Bossman worked that same style on his third and last series of that run, and fans seemed to like it.

 

 

It's almost impossible to think what Tenta would had looked like in AJPW, because he never really tried that great match style.

 

 

It doesn't seem very likely that in 1993-96 that Tenta could have worked the Fay Guy Stylings that Vader, Bigelow and Boosman did. He just didn't have the athletic ability to do it.

 

 

Bossman, WIlliams, Johnny Ace all got to do that and are not perceived better for it.

 

 

Really?

 

People who have looked at all of Bossman's career tend to give him credit for his 1993 trip through All Japan:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/12606-mitsuharu-misawa-kenta-kobashi-vs-steve-williams-big-boss-man-ajpw-real-world-tag-league-112493

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/12622-toshiaki-kawada-akira-taue-vs-steve-williams-big-boss-man-ajpw-real-world-tag-league-120193

 

And are still talking about it when he gets back to the US:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/12658-rick-rude-vs-the-boss-wcw-saturday-night-121893

 

He has another 12 tv matches from his three series in All Japan that year if people want to check him out. Some good, some not so good, but against a variety of guys.

 

Anyway... people who watched Bossman at the time and were seeing his 1993 All Japan stuff perceived him better for it.

 

With Doc, of course people perceived Doc's work better for his time in All Japan. Are there people who think that his work peaked at some point other than 8/93 - 3/95 after Gordy overdosed and before the Narita Nightmare?

 

As far as Ace, does anyone give a shit about his career in the US? It largely was a joke. Most perception of Ace being in good matches and at least carrying his end of the bargain tends to come from his All Japan work in the 90s.

 

So... maybe you mean something else with that sentence.

 

Yes, that last sentence meant that the AJPW run greatly helped them, because it gave them great matches they wouldn't had had elsewhere. It looks like I mistyped, sorry.

 

As for the rest of the post, you completely missed my point. First, don't tell me people in AJPW weren't trying to have great matches.

 

Second, yes Bigelow, Bossman, Vader were heavy bumpers and looked great doing athletic matches. However, my point remains, Tenta never tried to work that style. He wasn't a big bump forever and make them look great in a back and forth style match.

 

Could he do that? Very possible, he did dropkicks so he was athletic. If Tenta went on an extended run in AJPW he would had changed up his style and bumped a lot more. His offense already looked great, he was an awesome seller so where does this leave us? If Tenta went to AJPW and changed up his style would he be looked at as great as Dr. Death?

 

I don't know.

 

What I do know is that if you remove the AJPW run, then I take Tenta over Doc any day.

[Loss]

Great Match Theory stopped selling the leg during the comeback, which was very My Turn, Your Turn and full of 2.99999 wrestling. Talk about it here. **3/4