SummerSlam Brooklyn... It's Time!!!

[Bierschwale]

It's the REALITY ERA. Nobody knows what this is supposed to mean except that Triple H is always right and our great savior.

[Sean Liska]

They were the top babyfaces in that market and had been all along, though. Seth is supposedly the top heel in the WWE Universe, not just in smaller markets. Had that been the story for the last six months, then that would be completely different.

Is it really that different than a rudo like Negro Casas getting cheered somewhere and acknowledging the crowd? Or Choshu getting big cheers in 83 when he's technically acting like a heel? Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like sometimes we get locked into acting like wrestling has to be presented like it was in America in the 80s.

[Loss]

It's not about the fan reaction. It's playing to it. And wrestling should be like it was in the 1980s, and I have no problem saying that.

[Loss]

Hell, not just in the 1980s, but the fundamentals that were the same for decades. For all the talk about changing with the times, when Vince wants to hit a home run, he does very pro wrestling angles. See Brock-Undertaker for the most recent example.

[Sean Liska]

I'm not totally disagreeing with you. But I'll see Jim Ross talking about Bray Wyatt getting cheered and how that's a failure on the company's part and won't work. And I think, who was the big hated heel in the 1/97 Kobashi-Misawa match? That seemed to work. The Atlantis/Ultimo Guerrero match last year? Maybe Rollins is a bad example because he's such a cowardly heel but I think a guy like Wyatt can get cheered and everyone can still make money.

[Loss]

Are you purposely picking examples outside the U.S.?

[Loss]

I'm going to break down what specifically I am talking about in Cena-Rollins in a few.

[Sean Liska]

Yes, I am purposely going outside of the US because it's where we've seen things done differently but still making money.

[Loss]

- Rollins did the hiptoss/dropkick/mock opponent sequence that has always been a babyface sequence

- He won a toe-to-toe slugfest, which babyfaces usually do

- He caught Cena in the ropes and showed him up, which babyfaces usually do

- He reversed the figure four, which is a babyface spot

[Loss]

Yes, I am purposely going outside of the US because it's where we've seen things done differently but still making money.

 

I agree that there is more than one way to skin the cat. It's just hard to think of very many hugely successful programs in American history where the line was blurred.

[Slasher]

I know Lesnar is in complete CTC mode but someone should tell him it is okay to turn down matches. He can't possibly think working with a 50 year old dude is a good thing, can he? Then again it is a shame he is such a beast that it looks funny when he is in the ring with someone like Seth Rollins and it looks like Lesnar could eat him for a midday snack. I can't think of more than 5 guys that Lesnar could reasonably work with. And 3 of those 5 guys are guys he already had matches with.

 

About the Rollins thing, I am pretty sure he is turning babyface soon...by Survivor Series at latest. There just isn't anything left for him right now other than an extended program with Cena. Probably coinciding with a heel turn by one of the other ex-Shield members.

[Loss]

With the disputed finish to Undertaker-Lesnar, my immediate thought -- and maybe I'm wrong -- is that Reigns will beat Rollins for the title at Wrestlemania 32.

[Coffey]

There is something that I wanted to note: going into The Undertaker Vs. Brock Lesnar, despite all he has done in the past, I thought The Undertaker was completely done. I didn't think he had anything left in the tank. I mean, I was wanting a reason to crap all over the match (which the ending unfortunately did give me). However, after the beginning, when 'Taker fought off the initial attack by Brock & it led to 'Taker standing in the ring & Brock on the outside...they had sucked me in. I was a believer in that moment & was thinking "holy shit..." even after thinking that 'Taker could barely walk to the ring.

 

That is pro-wrestling.

[goc]

I know Lesnar is in complete CTC mode but someone should tell him it is okay to turn down matches. He can't possibly think working with a 50 year old dude is a good thing, can he? Then again it is a shame he is such a beast that it looks funny when he is in the ring with someone like Seth Rollins and it looks like Lesnar could eat him for a midday snack. I can't think of more than 5 guys that Lesnar could reasonably work with. And 3 of those 5 guys are guys he already had matches with.

 

About the Rollins thing, I am pretty sure he is turning babyface soon...by Survivor Series at latest. There just isn't anything left for him right now other than an extended program with Cena. Probably coinciding with a heel turn by one of the other ex-Shield members.

Lesnar respects Undertaker as much or more than probably any other wrestler so I doubt he sees it that way.

[Mr. Lacelle]

When I was a kid, in the 80's I hated the cut & dry baby face/heel structure. I much preferred when it was just a couple of wrestlers wrestling. This idea that it can only work one way is flawed. It can work different ways for different audiences at different times. Movies, music, sports, everything evolves. The beautiful thing about the faux fisties is that when done well you can have cards with a variety show feel. All sorts of stuff that can appeal to the parents who got dragged by their kids, the spouse who came along to support their s/o's passion & the hardcores themselves.

[Jingus]

Yes, I am purposely going outside of the US because it's where we've seen things done differently but still making money.

Different countries do tend to have different psychological trends among their population. In America, there's this really strong Mock The Loser tendency. We're subconsciously taught that if you don't win, then you're seriously an inferior human being and not worthy of respect. That's not as true in Japan, where a loser's effort is something that the crowd typically respects. They tend to care way more about "maybe you didn't win, but you tried as hard as you could and that's what really matters" than most American crowds do.

 

Ergo, we see American heels depicted much more often as despicable worthless people with no humanity or redeeming qualities. But since wrestling is wrestling and it often treats subtlety as its mortal enemy, this too often gets translated into "the heels must be inferior athletes who can't win a fair fight without cheating, and shitty people whom nobody would ever want to cheer". Which of course is ridiculously one-dimensional and intellectually lazy. Mick Foley had a great rant about the shallowness of that in his first book, when he got to Memphis and was forced to play a cringing stooging cheating chickenshit, despite that not fitting his character or his style even the tiniest little bit.

[goc]

I think Mid-South did the best at walking the line of making the heel look like he was tough yet still inferior to the babyface.

[MJH]

I've never bought "the heel can't show up the babyface" theory, the end result of which is Perfect or Shawn doing SFA in their heat segments so that the shine and comeback look all the more exciting. As I said in my earlier post, what choice does Rollins have for offence? His advantages over Cena are speed and athleticism, ergo, he does fast, athletic spots. As I mentioned, he could've put more heelish mannerisms between them but the only alternative would've been working Cena's nose and not only would that get old rather fast but I can see the company mandating that he avoids it for understandable reasons. Grabbing the face was right there to counter the headlock, for instance, but if he can't go full blown on it (a la Kobashi 10/90) then... you could even have Seth say "I beat Cena and I didn't even attack the nose!" (which obviously isn't the full story) to give him something strong to gloat about (the nose was a boon and he needs something).

 

As it relates to some of the "babyface spots" as outlined above, the hiptoss/dropkick/mock spot is a babyface spot, but it's a payback for the heel doing a hiptoss and posing, then a slam and posing etc leading into the babyface rattling them off together and mocking the pose (which I've always heard called the ______ two-step). Now, Cena establishing sections are rarely as involved as, say, Bret's were on occasion, but it's entirely possible that the idea was Cena shows his strength advantage comfortably taking Rollins down at will, not having to do much to maintain control, and Rollins' sequence is to establish both his speed and that he has to string moves together to stay on top. His mocking Cena afterwards was, I thought, one of the few heelish moments from either guy. It's difficult to do heel+underdog vs. face+favourite (though not impossible and if we actually think about it the face is often he favourite until some fates befall him). Heels also win slug fests all the time (granted, usually when there's a size difference and I would never have Rollins out-fight Cena).

 

All that said, I don't want to sound like I thought the match was great (I didn't), and there's plenty of stuff I'd change, but Seth using fast an athletic moves isn't one of them.

 

[And besides, wouldn't the "old school mentality" be for Cena to go full heel and Seth full baby given their respective reactions?]

[Slasher]

 

 

I know Lesnar is in complete CTC mode but someone should tell him it is okay to turn down matches. He can't possibly think working with a 50 year old dude is a good thing, can he? Then again it is a shame he is such a beast that it looks funny when he is in the ring with someone like Seth Rollins and it looks like Lesnar could eat him for a midday snack. I can't think of more than 5 guys that Lesnar could reasonably work with. And 3 of those 5 guys are guys he already had matches with.

 

About the Rollins thing, I am pretty sure he is turning babyface soon...by Survivor Series at latest. There just isn't anything left for him right now other than an extended program with Cena. Probably coinciding with a heel turn by one of the other ex-Shield members.

Lesnar respects Undertaker as much or more than probably any other wrestler so I doubt he sees it that way.

I don't mean to say Lesnar would think too little of the Undertaker to work with him. I meant that it really does nothing for his career at this point to be wrestling Taker. I am sure plenty of wrestlers respects the icon that Hulk Hogan is, but at this point, how many of them would want to actually wrestle the guy? There's no rub left to be gained from it. But Lesnar is in CTC mode so I know he doesn't care.

[Badlittlekitten]

It's a huge match that makes him loads of money. It does more for Brock than wrestling Cesaro.

 

Edit: what an earth is CTC? Cyclists Touring Club?

[Slasher]

 

Yes, I am purposely going outside of the US because it's where we've seen things done differently but still making money.

Ergo, we see American heels depicted much more often as despicable worthless people with no humanity or redeeming qualities. But since wrestling is wrestling and it often treats subtlety as its mortal enemy, this too often gets translated into "the heels must be inferior athletes who can't win a fair fight without cheating, and shitty people whom nobody would ever want to cheer". Which of course is ridiculously one-dimensional and intellectually lazy. Mick Foley had a great rant about the shallowness of that in his first book, when he got to Memphis and was forced to play a cringing stooging cheating chickenshit, despite that not fitting his character or his style even the tiniest little bit.

That's hardly true nowadays. Heels are people that fans today are more likely to get behind quickly because they exhibit traits that are more "normal" to the typical viewer. Babyfaces comes across as too artificial and idealized that people kind of resent. The most popular babyfaces now are guys who got popular as heels and carried those traits over as a babyface. I only think of a few guys that are consistently popular as babyfaces and it is usually because they are superworkers with strong undertones (Rey for example). Heels are us. Babyfaces are comic book superheroes. Only kids go for that shit nowadays...and women if they look good.

[Slasher]

It's a huge match that makes him loads of money. It does more for Brock than wrestling Cesaro.

It's Lesnar. He will make a ton of money whether he wrestles Bo Dallas or the Four Horsemen as an unit. It is up to the company to make sure they make that money back, so yes Undertaker is more attractive a prospect than Cesaro. But that has nothing to do with Lesnar.

[shoe]

I was super tired when I watched Summerslam. I actually fell asleep when the tag started and the main event. Re watched the show . I still thought Orton/Shemus was dull and never got going. The tag was a lot of fun. Rusev/Ziggler didn't resonate for me. Ziggler's dead selling isn't interesting. I enjoyed the Arrow tag. I enjoyed the 3 way and thought they over delivered. The Shield 2.0 match was super fun and my favorite match of the show. Rollins/Cena was weird. Rollins worked his ass off. Diva match was ok at best . I liked Owens and Cesaro and thought it was the 2nd best match of the show. Then the main event was worked perfectly for what it needed to be until that finish. A thumbs up show marred by bad booking.

[goodhelmet]

It's a huge match that makes him loads of money. It does more for Brock than wrestling Cesaro.

 

Edit: what an earth is CTC? Cyclists Touring Club?

 

Cash them checks

[peachchaos]

Makes no sense to book the WM12 ending for Brock/Taker unless they wanted to turn Brock face. Good match up until that point. It's not just that you book Brock to look like a face, even if you have Taker win by some kind of a screwy finish, you don't have Brock lose by submission EVER. So lame.

 

Owens/Cesaro and the Shield tag were both really good. What a surprise.

 

As good as Sheamus and Randy Orton can be in the ring, something their stuff just doesn't click with the audience and especially against each other it's a black hole. I would have booked Owens to go over Orton and let Sheamus and Cesaro kill each other for our enjoyment.