Matt D Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 The JYD is a bad worker is such WON dogma that it's almost impossible to argue against it when it comes to the WON HOF. I don't really think he belongs in a WON HOF for the same reason that someone like Angle does. In the publishing history of the WON, he was mostly ridiculed. It's not a wrestling hall of fame, it's a WON hall of fame. It's just the best thing we have, unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 The JYD is a bad worker is such WON dogma that it's almost impossible to argue against it when it comes to the WON HOF. I don't really think he belongs in a WON HOF for the same reason that someone like Angle does. In the publishing history of the WON, he was mostly ridiculed. It's not a wrestling hall of fame, it's a WON hall of fame. It's just the best thing we have, unfortunately. Unfortunately this is true. But if someone makes the statement that "Drawing is not the only criteria and JYD is not in the same ball park as Edge as a worker" then sorry, I can't just pretend that's not ridiculous and wrong just because Dave Meltzer would go along with it. You can say that a crawling headbutt doesn't take a lot of talent and I couldn't really dispute that but neither does falling off ladders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Knowing when to do a crawling headbutt to get the best crowd reaction, the timing between them, etc. There's something to it, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yo-Yo's Roomie Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 There's something to knowing when to fall off a ladder to get the best crowd reactions too, to be fair. I think Edge was a good gimmick match wrestler, and generally a smarter worker than people give him credit for, although most of the criticisms of him are accurate. It's interesting to me that some workers get praised as being good gimmick match workers (Carlos Colon, Bill Dundee, etc) whereas with someone like Edge the fact that he has been in lots of good gimmick matches is almost an insult. I get the distinction between 'great gimmick match worker' and 'all his good matches are gimmick matches', but it's just interesting to me how people use these arguments to fit their agenda, or point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Dundee and Colon also have a lot of good matches/performances that AREN'T gimmick matches though. I'm not sure that's an agenda thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 It's not a wrestling hall of fame, it's a WON hall of fame. It's just the best thing we have, unfortunately. Truth. The HOF is more about historiography than history, which is something I've said in previous years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yo-Yo's Roomie Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Like I said, I get the distinction between calling someone a great gimmick match worker, and saying someone only has great gimmick matches. I shouldn't accuse anyone of having an agenda, and won't, because I think we're all selective about who we choose to praise and how we choose to do it. It's just funny seeing Edge written off as just a smoke and mirrors stunt worker, while seeing the same qualities praised in other wrestlers. But it might not even be the same people doing that, and maybe everyone is perfectly consistent with how they view this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanClingman Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 JYD is a better draw, had more influence, more iconic Yup, yup, agree here. and a better worker than Edge. I don't really understand how you could say this. Best JYD matches are as good as best Edge matches. Sure Edge was more smooth and had higher end offense, but the charisma that JYD brought in the ring made his matches better. I'll take Stagger Lee/Bill Watts vs Midnight Express over any Edge match. Heck I'll even take JYD/Tito vs Funks over the majority of Edge matches. Not to mention the cool stuff coming out of the Houston footage. What makes Edge good in the ring? He was a horrible actor who had horrible offense and the majority of his "great" matches involves him spending most of the matches building traps for his opponents. Okay, I definitely understand your argument now. I should preface this by saying that I haven't seen close to as many JYD matches as I have Edge ones, something that I hope to rectify soon, however. On the topic of Edge as a worker, as far as what the audience expected from a big match worker at the time, that is, pretty good timing, good facials, ability to perform big "set piece" style high spots, decent offense, and so on, he had it. That being said, was he a Hall of Fame level worker? No. Was he an ultra-dynamic worker? Probably, not. He was fairly patterned towards the later stages of his career too. However, I have a certain fondness for most of his ladder match work, and I feel that he was a really valuable character and big match worker on the roster, particularly as a heel. He was a character who provided me with some pretty entertaining moments particularly in his feuds with Hardy, early Cena work, Undertaker, some of the Rated RKO stuff, and a few others. With that being said, does the importance of his out of the ring work hold the same importance as JYD's? The answer to this question should be obvious, of course not. I don't believe Edge to be a Hall of Famer anyway, but from the knowledge I have and from what I have seen over the years, I respect his work to a significantly greater degree than JYD's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanClingman Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Higher end offense?? Edge didn't have shit in his arsenal either. Nothing he did looked like it hurt. I struggle to think of any moves besides punches and the running hug. Downward Spiral looked like shit, and Gangrel did that version of the DDT better and Edge never really seemed to stick to using that one anyway. Edge also had that one move where he grabbed a guy's head and then sat down. It was literally just a guy taking a back bump with Edge's hands on his ears. Also, he clenched his teeth while slicking down his hair. To be fair, JYD had a move where he used to crawl into people's heads with his head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 I just brought that specific move up. and not in a flattering way for JYD. But I'd still buy that as more painful than the move Eric is talking about. And The Thump beats the running hug Spear any day. Especially since JYD didn't spend 30 seconds making laughably goofy looking "THIS IS SERIOUS!" faces in the corner to set it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Edge also had that one move where he grabbed a guy's head and then sat down. It was literally just a guy taking a back bump with Edge's hands on his ears.Stone Cold also had that one move where he grabbed a guy's head and then sat down. It was literally just a guy taking a back bump after Austin's hands were on his ears. Seriously, there's nitpicking and then there's NITPICKING. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricR Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Oh, brother. Let's try and pretend that Edge gently tugging a guy to the mat looked the same as a guy getting his jaw jacked. There's bad posters, and there's Jingus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 The larger point (aside from how hilariously perfect that sentence fit Austin's finisher too, with no other change in the wording) is that there's been plenty of over moves that look like crap. The People's Elbow often looked like Rock wasn't even making contact. Big Daddy's belly bump required people to run directly into him like a moron and then bounce themselves backwards. Umaga's throat thrust was just him swinging one finger in the general direction of a guy's neck. Cena's STF often has a laughable amount of daylight. And what do all those moves have in common with the Edge-o-matic (which is admittedly a terrible name)? The common denominator is that the crowd bought all of them and popped every time. There's bad posters, and there's Jingus.Ad hominem attacks: for when you know you're losing an argument but are just too proud to admit it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Says the man who spent pages arguing that Sandman should OBVIOUSLY be well known to a Joshi wrestler, and engaged in name calling in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 Hey, I'm the one trying to keep things on track by actually talking about a candidate; and I find this particular section of the IWC's disdain towards Edge to be rather mystifying, and it's an opinion not shared by the vast majority of wrestling fans I know from other places and other communities. Yeah, some of Edge's stuff was pretty light, but he looked like Yuki Ishikawa when compared to some others; especially the historical guys like Giant Baba, Killer Kowalski, the aforementioned Big Daddy, and various others whose offense was so phony-looking that it's hard to believe that fans actually bought their matches as being shoots back in the kayfabe days. And saying he wasn't a draw: yeah, technically true, but then how many legit "draws" really existed during his tenure on top the WWE? By then, Vince had long ago made the company's entire name brand into the draw, specifically devaluing the individual wrestlers so that no one guy would have enough power to give Vince any ultimatums. EDIT: and no, I don't think "he wasn't as bad as people here are saying he was" means he should necessarily go into the HoF. He does seem like a borderline candidate at best. But there are plenty of guys already in the Hall whose work I enjoyed less, and even more guys than that whose work was certainly watched by much fewer people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJRogers Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 It's not a wrestling hall of fame, it's a WON hall of fame. It's just the best thing we have, unfortunately. Truth. The HOF is more about historiography than history, which is something I've said in previous years. I'm not a shill for them, but COME ON! http://www.pwhf.org/ And they have annual induction ceremonies, a physical museum and everything! I'm not saying the WON isn't something to spend pages and pages talking about it every year, but can we stop acting like its the end all-be all of specific promotion HOFs alternatives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecubsfan Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 So let's be clear, Yes to Edge Yes to Brock Lesnar Yes to Sgt. Slaughter No to Danile Bryan Yes to Huracan Ramirez No to Brazo de Oro & Brazo de Plata & El Brazo No to Cien Caras No to Ultimo Guerrero No to Blue Panther No to El Signo & El Texano & Negro Navarro No to Dr. Wagner Jr. I've not listened to his podcast explaining this ballot, but I have in previous years. He believes no wrestlers should be eligible into the Hall of Fame during their career and will not vote for anyone he believes is still active to enforce his own rule. That's probably his reason for saying no to Daniel Bryan and possibly a reason for the luchadors. (That would make Brock's inclusion confusing.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tofu_chipmunk Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 It's not a wrestling hall of fame, it's a WON hall of fame. It's just the best thing we have, unfortunately. Truth. The HOF is more about historiography than history, which is something I've said in previous years. I'm not a shill for them, but COME ON! http://www.pwhf.org/ And they have annual induction ceremonies, a physical museum and everything! I'm not saying the WON isn't something to spend pages and pages talking about it every year, but can we stop acting like its the end all-be all of specific promotion HOFs alternatives? The WON Hall of Fame is I believe the only one for which forum members have a vote,so it is going to naturally have more discussion. Also,the inductions for wrestlers and figures outside the U.S. and Canada has been far more robust, thereby providing more discussion. That said, the PWHF is an interesting animal in its own right. I don't know why it isn't discussed more than it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricR Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 The larger point (aside from how hilariously perfect that sentence fit Austin's finisher too, with no other change in the wording) is that there's been plenty of over moves that look like crap. The People's Elbow often looked like Rock wasn't even making contact. Big Daddy's belly bump required people to run directly into him like a moron and then bounce themselves backwards. Umaga's throat thrust was just him swinging one finger in the general direction of a guy's neck. Cena's STF often has a laughable amount of daylight. And what do all those moves have in common with the Edge-o-matic (which is admittedly a terrible name)? The common denominator is that the crowd bought all of them and popped every time. There's bad posters, and there's Jingus.Ad hominem attacks: for when you know you're losing an argument but are just too proud to admit it. It's only an ad hominem attack if you pretend that was the only thing I typed. Edge's terrible offense gets laughed at around here so often because he's mentioned as a guy by supporters as having exciting offense. Nobody has ever argued Baba, Big Daddy, Austin had exciting movesets as a reason for their HOF inclusion. And while you were able to use my description to also describe the Stunner, that doesn't mean you're correct. To think the Stunner looked as pathetic as the Edge-o-Matic is hilarious. Even thinking about the move in kayfabe sense you have one guy's throat being forced down onto Austin's shoulder, vs. a guy gently falling backwards. Edge not once made it look like he was driving the guy's head into the mat. We get it, some moves don't hurt and some moves pop a crowd, but I don't think any establish nearfall offense looked as bad as Edge's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanClingman Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 I just brought that specific move up. and not in a flattering way for JYD. But I'd still buy that as more painful than the move Eric is talking about. And The Thump beats the running hug Spear any day. Especially since JYD didn't spend 30 seconds making laughably goofy looking "THIS IS SERIOUS!" faces in the corner to set it up. Oops, I missed that, sorry. Edge's spear wasn't on the level of a Goldberg, Rhyno, or maybe even Roman Reigns or Batista, but if you are going to call Edge's a "running hug", you will probably have to say the same for Batista, Reigns, and probably most people who did the move and weren't Goldberg or Rhyno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 I don't think Edge was completely horrible or anything. I just don't think he's an elite worker, and more frustrating, he's not at all the type of worker who fits the descriptions he usually gets. Dave even talked about him once as one of the few guys in current wrestling (current being 2010-2011) who worked like he was in a fight and struggled to hit moves instead of working a match like a cooperative dance. His other two examples of the few who worked that way were Jericho and Orton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbes Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 Dave today called Jericho the second or third most over guy in WWE right now (after Brock, but I assume he's smart enough to add Cena as well), so it's clear that 1) dude loves some Y2J and continues to view him with rose-colored glasses, and 2) maybe he's not always putting as much thought into these questions of when/why/how money's made as certain voters are. (This was in the context of saying that Brock and Jericho are the biggest stars precisely because they're rarely on RAW, given that RAW is damaging the careers of everyone on the roster.) I wasn't buying Dave's "Jericho is one of the most over guys on the house shows" stuff but then at SummerSlam, Jericho got the second biggest reaction next to Cena, so now I think there might actually something to it. As you pointed out, Dave and Bryan have been framing it as "WWE's booking is so toxic that you actually are more over if you barely work on TV" a lot of the time, so it isn't complete fawning over Jericho, it's bashing modern WWE booking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 WWE's booking is shitty, but any returning star is going to get a big pop for their return or a sporadic appearance. I don't think that is a sign they are more over at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJRogers Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 WWE's booking is shitty, but any returning star is going to get a big pop for their return or a sporadic appearance. I don't think that is a sign they are more over at all. I wouldn't say its a correlation. If the Blue Jays brought out Joe Carter, Dave Steib, George Bell, Robbie Alomar, etc before games during this AL East winning season, the pop would be as great as it would have if the Jays were heading for a last place season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 Yea I mean The Boogeyman could have an appearance on Raw tomorrow and it could get more of a reaction that the majority of the roster but that doesn't mean people care about him more. (With the exception of myself) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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