Roman / Brock vs. Sasha / Bayley

[JerryvonKramer]

I think Blue Pants was probably as over as anyone that night, or indeed entire weekend.

[donsem43]

Blue Pants is over in NXT the same way Sasha is over on the main roster. Put her in a match that goes more than 5 minutes and her heat would disappear. Same thing happens to her on the indys, people love the concept but don't care about the actual wrestler.

[MFoy]

 

 

Making fans forget about that match being incredible before the cash-in is part of the political hit.

Most of the audience who doesn't post on wrestling boards, I think, like Roman at this point, but yeah, this is one of the only places where I've seen that match acknowledged for being as good as it was. Most other places, Roman Reigns matches devolve into contests for whoever can post that Roman is gassed first.

 

What a shitty time for "smart" fans that they mistake selling for being gassed because they think that the idiots who work 100 miles an hour and never stay down for more than 5 seconds before they get to their next move are the "good workers."

 

Didn't that used to be MORE true than it is now? Seems like the notion of a good worker is far more up for discussion than it was in "smart" circles 15-20 years ago.

[Parties]

Blue Pants is over in NXT the same way Sasha is over on the main roster. Put her in a match that goes more than 5 minutes and her heat would disappear. Same thing happens to her on the indys, people love the concept but don't care about the actual wrestler.

 

My own reaction to each is a bit different, and I think they get very different pops. The Blue Pants cheers were a reaction of a fun element of surprise, the comedic absurdity of her character/push, and amusement at the idea that the company bothered to make something of a to-do over someone who the fans think "they got over" or received said push based on their reactions. But at least for now, it's a Hack Meyers "Shah!" pop. The crowd marking out over something they feel they created in the second match on the show is different than the reaction to what Banks has shown in NXT and what people hope she can maintain on the main roster.

 

A large percentage of these crowds had no idea who Banks was prior to the creation of BAD, which has been presented as the third most important act in an infamously bad, mismanaged three-way feud that never should have happened. To them, she's the latest new girl in a decade-long string of new girls who went nowhere. The crowd has been Massaro-ed and Kaitlyn-ed into assuming that she won't matter and probably won't be on the roster in two years. The other percentage of fans know Banks, and have a variety of reactions to her, but I'd say that if there's been crowd apathy to her matches or in-ring performances, it has more to do with the way the division's been presented. To my ear, Sasha is getting reactions that are as good or better than any of the other Divas. It's just that it's a dubious achievement when none of her peers are over at all.

[PhilTLL]

It stands to reason that the postmatch ruined the match retroactively much like the Rollins cash in ruined the previous 10+ minutes of Lesnar vs Reigns for some.

I suppose, but you can turn off Sasha/Bayley when the final bell rings and have a complete experience, which obviously you can't do with Lesnar/Reigns when Rollins' music hits.

[Slasher]

 

It stands to reason that the postmatch ruined the match retroactively much like the Rollins cash in ruined the previous 10+ minutes of Lesnar vs Reigns for some.

I suppose, but you can turn off Sasha/Bayley when the final bell rings and have a complete experience, which obviously you can't do with Lesnar/Reigns when Rollins' music hits.

But who does that? Most just about everyone that watches wrestling watches til the WWE logo fades to black. I get what you are saying, the cash in is much more permeated into the match and there is no way to separate the two events. I am just answering the question Grimmas posed in that I can see how it affects people even if it was a post match deal. With pro wrestling the totality is the experience of wrestling. It is like, people can and do judge Flair/Steamboat separately but the deal with Funk piledriving Flair on a table after the match added to the experience and added some juice to the Funk feud. If it happened in an interview segment the next night, it probably doesn't carry the same impact. You gotta go both ways here.

[donsem43]

Rewatched Lesnar vs. Reigns, thought it was really great, and probably would have voted for it but... While I really like the idea of Rollins getting involved, it should have been something that turned the match on its head, but instead it just directly lead to the finish. That sudden stop at the end seems more like a match structure issue then a booking issue, at least in terms of the match itself.

 

A large percentage of these crowds had no idea who Banks was prior to the creation of BAD, which has been presented as the third most important act in an infamously bad, mismanaged three-way feud that never should have happened. To them, she's the latest new girl in a decade-long string of new girls who went nowhere. The crowd has been Massaro-ed and Kaitlyn-ed into assuming that she won't matter and probably won't be on the roster in two years. The other percentage of fans know Banks, and have a variety of reactions to her, but I'd say that if there's been crowd apathy to her matches or in-ring performances, it has more to do with the way the division's been presented. To my ear, Sasha is getting reactions that are as good or better than any of the other Divas. It's just that it's a dubious achievement when none of her peers are over at all.

 

This wasn't a problem at the start. If you go watch the Paige/Sasha match from Raw that I have on my list, that match got some time and had some pretty good heat for both women. Sasha had only been on the main roster for a week or two, but she managed to get over quickly and kept the crowd engaged the whole way through. The problem is they haven't ran enough of these types of matches on Raw, usually putting them on Smackdown or Main Event and not even bothering to mention them afterwords.

[Parties]

BAD vs. Bellas has also looked like a genuinely hot feud every time they've squared off. They had a trios match on Smackdown that was much better than it should have been: it was worked as a match where everyone wanted to prove that they weren't some irrelevant supporting cast to the Charlotte Show. Both teams had swag, trash talked each other believably, worked stiff, and everyone executed well in-ring. Were it not for the usual WWE nepotism/racism, I would be wondering why BAD-Bellas wasn't the division's main feud, with PCB in the back seat.

[Bierschwale]

Rewatched Lesnar vs. Reigns, thought it was really great, and probably would have voted for it but... While I really like the idea of Rollins getting involved, it should have been something that turned the match on its head, but instead it just directly lead to the finish. That sudden stop at the end seems more like a match structure issue then a booking issue, at least in terms of the match itself.

 

I agree that there's something to be said for what Lesnar-Reigns-Rollins as an actual third act of the match would have made it. If it's suddenly a single-fall triple threat, then by WWE logic, that means that it's also a no DQ match. Heyman was out there, of course. What if Rollins inserts himself into the match to be met with a Paul E. chairshot? Not to review a match that didn't happen, but a rapid-fire version of the Rumble title match attached to the Lesnar-Reigns match that we did see certainly would have been something else.

[Jimmy Redman]

I haven't been able to sign in on my phone for some reason so I've been keenly watching this poll from afar.

 

I went for the girls without a second thought. I was going to try to articulate why, but having read over what I wrote about Brooklyn at the time (hopefully I still have a link in my signature) it says everything I would want to say on the subject. Transcendent wrestling.

 

Reigns vs Brock I saw as an achievement more than an amazing MOTY-type match. I went into Mania without seeing much of the build, so I didn't really experience the Roman backlash, but I was aware of it and saw the apathy of the crowd going in. For them to go out there and get Reigns to the point where an audience that hostile were going nuts for him, purely through the work in the match...that is an extraordinary wrestling achievement, and all credit to them. I appreciate it more on that level than being in love with it as a match, if that makes sense. And I didn't like the finish at all. Before the bell rang I wouldn't have cared, but it was one of those times where the story they managed to tell in the match was so good that it ended up deserving a better finish. Not a clean one, but a better one.

 

BUT this is all with the caveat that I haven't watched it since it happened and don't remember a lot of the details of the match.

[Slasher]

I hate to be that guy but I do wonder if Sasha/Bayley is so highly rated because the US women wrestling bar is so low? I know people here have talked about it as a wrestling match period and not just a womens match, but I do think it stands out more because its women and because the story that it told...which...is women centric in terms of the emotions it draws from people and how it unfolds. I mean this is not a story to be told using two burly guys at all. Even a match like Zayn/Cesaro which draws some similar elements still had a different feel to it. Maybe the postmatch thing with the Four Horsewomen and then the Ironman with the fan girl really paints a different color for me than intended.

[Matt D]

I think if you're going to go that far, you should just go all the way into tokenism and wish fulfillment and be done with it. Someone probably should, if only so it can get dismissed. The idea that people want Bayley vs Sasha to be the best for symbolic reasons as a blow for female wrestling in the US (as opposed to being just a blow for the part timer or the put-upon company favorite putting on a good match on a big stage) or in order to feel progressive, etc. I'd rather we just get it out of the way, even if we are six pages in.

[Slasher]

Nah I am not accusing people of having an agenda with this. I am wondering if it is something that helps its case subconsciously because well it isn't something that is often seen in its division. Something similar to how well regarded DK vs Tiger Mask was at its time because well not many people were seeing that elsewhere even if people have argued for other superior workers at the time or in retrospect.

[Slasher]

Just to clarify-the match definitely deserve all its acclaim, even I know that, with me not being the optimal audience for that, I still recognize that. I just still think its a match that would end up being swept up in time with how badly the WWE is handling the division on the main roster and how much longer the division have left in NXT before Bayley and maybe Asura leaves and its Eva Marie as the crown jewel of the division. I think if Roman Reigns becomes the man finally, his match with Brock Lesnar will be put into history along with other matches that showed hints of their aces before they became aces officially. Men are something that the WWE are going to always take better care of, period.

 

So it is just when I see terms tossed around like transcendental, for Sasha vs Bayley, I have zero faith in the WWE to actually make it so. Transcendence requires cooperation between not just the audience that accepts it but the makers that have to enforce it in history. It happened for DK and Tiger Mask. Will it for this? I don't know but I would guess that I don't think so.

[funkdoc]

the story with sasha-bayley is a far more relevant story in 2015 than anything else WWE has done, easily. there's something of a cultural zeitgeist with feminism and the reactions to it atm, particularly in the internet-nerd circles that make up a lot of live wrestling audiences. this is the wrestling that will be a time capsule of its period, in the way that mid-south and such were in their day. masculinity is *so* 1999, and no amount of company backing or lack thereof can mask that feeling with this generation.

[jcmmnx]

I loved both matches, and have both as top 3 in WWE this year. I was more invested in Bayley/Sasha due to the booking around it being better(and the build up not involving a tug of war).

[rvd356]

I honestly don't even know who the two women are? I think Reigns-Lesnar should be compared with Cena-Rollins Summerslam, Taker-Brock Summerslam, Cena-Owens I, and Cena-Cesaro 07.06.15 RAW match. Those are MOTYC.

 

But hey I don't like women's wrestling. And nXt did impress the hell out of me with Zayn-Neville and Zayn-Owens(although this feud I've always loved).

[rvd356]

But Lesnar-Reigns was as good as air gets to me. Lesnar is favorite US wrestler of all time, and Reigns still had something if he can come out of the horrible Sheamus deal.

 

God I hope he beats him before Mania, and we get Reigns© v. Lesnar II at Mania!

[JKWebb]

My vote was for Roman vs Brock. I rate it at five stars and really think it might be the best match that has ever closed a Mania. That being said, I don't see how it can't be the match of the year for me, but I've enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on this. I've been arguing with my friends over this for the past month or so. So, this has provided ammunition to both sides.

[Grimmas]

I honestly don't even know who the two women are? I think Reigns-Lesnar should be compared with Cena-Rollins Summerslam, Taker-Brock Summerslam, Cena-Owens I, and Cena-Cesaro 07.06.15 RAW match. Those are MOTYC.

 

But hey I don't like women's wrestling. And nXt did impress the hell out of me with Zayn-Neville and Zayn-Owens(although this feud I've always loved).

So you come into a poll thread for what purpose then? If you haven't seen the match then you have nothing to add.

 

Also, what do you have against women's wrestling?

[Johnny Sorrow]

It's not always an indictment or sign of mysoginistic attitude if someone says they don't like women's wrestling. It can be just not digging it. I never liked it until recently, now that the storylines and performers are something I dig.

[rvd356]

Yeah that's kind of a stretch if anyone had taken that from my comment. It's just a plain old like/dislike thing.

 

So after reading that comment I went and tried to watch it. Well maybe this is sexist or whatever but I don't enjoy watching women fight, and maybe I'm old school for that. Is part of the appeal that guys are attracted to the girls because that's what I was thinking when I first started watching...that most likely people were into this Bayley girl for having the pony tail and being all girlish? I doubt it's Banks because she looks lik a Vegas stripper. That's fine if that's the appeal. She looks like every other chick on the softball team I hooked up with(the other half was with eachother), and that's not a bad thing I dated one.

 

I mean it starts off ok but I don't have any draw to finish it. I don't see how this compares to Reigns fighting for his life against the most Monster heel Lesnar, best since Vader and Andre? And Lesnar laying a beating Kobashi or Misawa would veto...in the Mania main event for the Undisputed WHC? The perfect stage for a special violent fight like none before.

 

Also yeah it's like I don't like seeing girls take bumps and be hurt that's not fun so I turned it off. And if it's the looks....damn that Paige chick smashes on these two, she's worth watching just to look at.

[Jimmy Redman]

It's not always an indictment or sign of mysoginistic attitude if someone says they don't like women's wrestling. It can be just not digging it.

 

 

Yeah that's kind of a stretch if anyone had taken that from my comment. It's just a plain old like/dislike thing.

 

So after reading that comment I went and tried to watch it. Well maybe this is sexist or whatever but I don't enjoy watching women fight, and maybe I'm old school for that. Is part of the appeal that guys are attracted to the girls because that's what I was thinking when I first started watching...that most likely people were into this Bayley girl for having the pony tail and being all girlish? I doubt it's Banks because she looks lik a Vegas stripper. That's fine if that's the appeal. She looks like every other chick on the softball team I hooked up with(the other half was with eachother), and that's not a bad thing I dated one.

 

{...}

 

And if it's the looks....damn that Paige chick smashes on these two, she's worth watching just to look at.

 

Just wow.

[rvd356]

I'll take that as you are in agreement.

[rvd356]

Is it mysoginistic to comment on their looks now damn. I'm sure that they are super serious athletes and I'll show them proper respect from now on Jimmy.

 

EDIT: I'm sorry that sounded pretty dickish. I honestly have not watched a women's match since like Sable-Trish 2003 untill this one and I understand they aren't doing the Bra and Panties type stuff anymore. I will give them credit on their craft improving but not at the level of of Lesnar.