Jimmy Redman Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Hunter should get 2000-01 for L in all fairness, however much that shakes out to be, but honestly I find him so annoying right now that I don't really care if he does get 0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Forgot to do Hash for some reason: Shinya Hashimoto Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 for stiff kicks) = 7 Intangibles 6 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 1990-2004 = 14 years = 8 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion +1 ability to work shoot style Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 3 Variety = 9 39 Some people will be pleased to note that he has a score 1 point higher than Hase's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Parv, other than the Finlay brawl, what other Regal matches do you have rated 4.5+? Probably the Bulldog match from 93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Tweaks: +2 Intangibles for Misawa -1 on selling for Hase +3 on Variety for Arn +1 Intangibles for Fujinami -2 Great matches for Steve Keirn -1 Variety and -1 Intangibles for Scott Hall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 William Regal Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 3/3 (+1 for brutality) = 9 Intangibles 9 Great matches 1 Length of Peak 1993-2013 = 17+ years = 10 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work different gimmicks ("blowjob babyface in England") +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (England, Germany, WCW, ECW, WWF, Japan, indies) Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 8 Variety = 10 47 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 BIGLAV Incorporated Ltd. has now ceased trading. Thanking you very much for your custom. Total number of workers rated: 181 Top 100 complete. Stats breakdown 70s: 19% 80s: 43% 90s: 32% 00s: 6% British: 6% US / Canadian: 70% Japanese: 19% Luchadores: 5% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Do you have an updated mastersheet for all wrestlers? Apologies if you have posted it already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 No because of the no spoilers thing. Hopefully by the end of the week we'll have it out on audio form, but I won't upload the master list until after the deadline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 Just in case guys who have been following this thread don't go outside this folder, we posted the audio for 100-41 here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/33607-where-the-big-boys-play-81-top-100-greatest-wrestlers-ever-special-part-1-100-41/ Hopefully Top 40 middle of next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 As I mentioned previously, I thought it would be an interesting thought experiment to see what sort of list I'd come up with without the use of BIGLAV and instead using Steven Graham's nebulously vaugue, sentimental, Canadian "feely" system, shorn of any and all pretence of objectivity. First thing I did was go through my list and cut out all of the people I do not LOVE and who do not make me feel warm inside. These are all people to whom I was either "giving credit where it is due" or who did well on BIGLAV despite my personal feelings on the matter. Here's who went. Cut: AJ Styles Andre Antonio Inoki Bob Backlund Carlos Colon Chris Benoit Chris Jericho CM Punk Daniel Bryan Dean Malenko Dick Murdoch Dory Funk Jr Dustin Rhodes Dusty Rhodes Dynamite Kid El Dandy Hulk Hogan Jerry Lawler John Cena Johnny Saint Jose Lothario Jun Akiyama Jushin Liger Keiji Mutoh Ken Patera Larry Zbyszko Low Ki Masa Fuchi Mick Foley Negro Casas Rey Mysterio Jr Riki Choshu Roddy Piper Sean Waltman Shawn Michaels Shinya Hashimoto Steve Austin Steve Grey Steve Williams Sting Tatsumi Fujinami Terry Gordy The Destroyer Tito Santana Tommy Rich In making this list I asked myself questions like "who would I rather watch?" and "just based on how I'm feeling today, who do I FEEL should go higher?" This is not a piss-take and I'm not trying to prove anything. I genuinely wanted to see what I'd end up with. Here it is. Inerestingly, not that much movement in the top 10. 1. Ric Flair 2. Jumbo Tsuruta 3. Terry Funk 4. Mitsuharu Misawa 5. Kenta Kobashi 6. Stan Hansen 7. Nick Bockwinkel 8. Generico Tenryu 9. Toshiaki Kawada 10. Billy Robinson 11. Jim Breaks 12. William Regal 13. Pat Patterson 14. Rick Martel 15. Ricky Steamboat 16. Jack Brisco 17. Ted DiBiase 18. Arn Anderson 19. Barry Windham 20. Bobby Eaton 21. Randy Savage 22. Ricky Morton 23. Hiroshi Hase 24. Tully Blanchard 25. Sgt. Slaughter 26. Buddy Rose 27. Eddie Guerrero 28. Harley Race 29. Brock Lesnar 30. Yoshiaki Yatsu 31. Mocha Cota 32. Vader 33. Akira Taue 34. Ron Garvin 35. Bob Orton Jr 36. Adrian Adonis 37. Giant Baba 38. Bill Dundee 39. Curt Hennig 40. Jerry Blackwell 41. Rick Rude 42. Bret Hart 43. Wahoo McDaniel 44. Mr. Saito 45. Owen Hart 46. Brian Pillman 47. Ivan Koloff 48. Scott Steiner 49. Rick Steiner 50. Dennis Condrey 51. Tommy Rogers 52. Magnum TA 53. Michael Hayes 54. Big Boss Man 55. Butch Reed 56. Bruno Sammartino 57. Lex Luger 58. Kerry Von Erich 59. Haku 60. Dick Slater 61. Killer Khan 62. Iron Sheik 63. Jake Roberts 64. Buzz Sawyer 65. Chavo Guerrerro (Sr) 66. Abdullah the Butcher 67. Red Pants Kobayashi 68. Ernie Ladd 69. Tsuyoshi Kikuchi 70. Earthquake John Tenta 71. Bobby Fulton 72. Ron Simmons 73. Paul Orndorff 74. Atushi Onita 75. Tarzan Goto 76. Kensuke Sasaki 77. Eddie Gilbert 78. Doug Somers 79. Masked Superstar 80. Kurt Angle 81. One Man Gang 82. Mike Rotunda 83. Yokozuna 84. Ricky Fuyuki 85. The Rock 86. The Undertaker 87. Tiger Mask 88. Jim Duggan 89. British Bulldog (Davey Boy Smith) 90. Matt Borne 91. Mr. Fuji 92. Tony Garea 93. Toru Tanaka 94. Tor Kamata 95. The Sheik (Original) 96. Gentleman Jerry Valiant 97. Koko Ware 98. Raymond Rougeau 99. Bobby Heenan 100. Vince McMahon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 Much better list Parv. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 Parv, how much of this is list is who you think is greatest vs. who you enjoy watching? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 Parv, how much of this is list is who you think is greatest vs. who you enjoy watching? It's almost entirely the latter. As you know, I always did and still see the project as being much much more about the former, hence BIGLAV and ranking people I don't love. If it was just a purely subjective list motivated only by my personal feelings, that 100 would be my list. Eagle-eyed readers among you might be able to spot Kurt Angle at #80, which should be of interest to Case and others who I argued with about that before. I still like Angle deep down, but I can separate the heart and the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InYourCase Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 Parv, how much of this is list is who you think is greatest vs. who you enjoy watching? It's almost entirely the latter. As you know, I always did and still see the project as being much much more about the former, hence BIGLAV and ranking people I don't love. If it was just a purely subjective list motivated only by my personal feelings, that 100 would be my list. Eagle-eyed readers among you might be able to spot Kurt Angle at #80, which should be of interest to Case and others who I argued with about that before. I still like Angle deep down, but I can separate the heart and the head. I don't really care where you rank Angle, I just have an issue with you scoffing at the idea of Angle being a Top 20 contender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 Parv, how much of this is list is who you think is greatest vs. who you enjoy watching? It's almost entirely the latter. As you know, I always did and still see the project as being much much more about the former, hence BIGLAV and ranking people I don't love. If it was just a purely subjective list motivated only by my personal feelings, that 100 would be my list. Eagle-eyed readers among you might be able to spot Kurt Angle at #80, which should be of interest to Case and others who I argued with about that before. I still like Angle deep down, but I can separate the heart and the head. I don't really care where you rank Angle, I just have an issue with you scoffing at the idea of Angle being a Top 20 contender. I didn't rank Angle in my actual list. And I encourage more people to scoff loudly at him as a top 20 contender, because he really isn't one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Lacelle Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 What do you have against Zybszko? Also I'm with Grimmas, I much prefer list #2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 What do you have against Zybszko? Also I'm with Grimmas, I much prefer list #2 He's got a lot of gaps and things in his career where he's not that exciting or isn't that good. And unlike other greatest hits guys like, say, Slaughter who is just great hanging out in a five minute nothing TV match just by virtue of his huge bumping or whatever, when Larry is off, he's really off. And if Larry came up on a random match listing, I wouldn't get excited because I know the match could turn out either way. He's a weird guy who has these pockets of greatness, and he made me actual ballot, but for my "feel-y" list, I'm holding that hit or miss ratio against him. It's actually a criticism I have of Steven's list that he's seemingly blind to the flaws of a guy like Larry Z who he rewards for the times he's on, but then totally harsh on a guy like Shawn for the times he's off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 What do you have against Zybszko? Also I'm with Grimmas, I much prefer list #2 It's actually a criticism I have of Steven's list that he's seemingly blind to the flaws of a guy like Larry Z who he rewards for the times he's on, but then totally harsh on a guy like Shawn for the times he's off. I've said this a few times, so I will say it again. It's just not that Shawn sucked for his whole return, it's also the fact he wasn't good as a singles from 92-96. He had the 96-97 run which was good to great and he had the run as a good tag worker. Anybody else with that resume would not make my list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 Well it's not just Shawn, it's a lot of guys. I think if you are high on someone (Larry Z), you are more willing to overlook flaws. Whereas if you are low on someone (whoever it is), you magnify them. Not having a go, we are all human. BIGLAV was about the rejection of humanity in many ways Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 Thankfully I am bulletproof to such criticisms due to my Andre write ups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 Thankfully I am bulletproof to such criticisms due to my Andre write ups. I listened back over Chad and I's 100-41 earlier. I forgot to ask but what did you make of the bit where Chad was insistent that you were trolling the board with your Andre ranking? One of those little moments, made me laugh listening back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 That prompted me to bump the thread since no one had responded to my Mulligan vs Andre write up. If no one will engage me when I do the earnest legwork, I'm not super concerned by their criticisms. I like Chad's list. Mine will be very different though. I think each will be very consistent within itself. If I did a six hour podcast on this, I wouldn't use the phrase "high end matches" once. I'm pretty sure about that. I'm perfectly happy listening to one where someone does for every person though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 I tend to lean more toward Parv's way of thinking about these things as objectively as the human experience can allow (realizing it can't ever happen, but still trying), and I feel like it's worth clarifying that this is not my philosophy on the right way to watch wrestling, nor do I think it's Parv's, even if I am the type that will give a match ***1/2 if I don't really get into it much, but still think it was well-worked by whatever criteria I'd normally call any match well-worked. But aiming to make my ballot about something more than just my personal tastes did feel like the right approach for trying to provide an answer to the question, "Who is the greatest wrestler?" I wasn't aiming to fully oppress my opinions as much as I was trying to balance them out by realizing some guy isn't just the greatest wrestler ever because I enjoy him the most. That seems self-important. It was an attempt at humility. Guided or misguided, who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 In so many ways my guiding mantra was "put your personal feelings aside, and give credit where it is due". This was actually a huge part of the Dory Funk Jr case I made. You'll notice he didn't make my personal list. I still think and will always think that my personal feelings don't in any way dictate "greatness". That's why I ranked modern guys, lucha guys, and people I don't really care much about. But if people genuinely prefer my personal list to my actual ballot, well, there is it. I also really don't think the only people on "this side" of the argument are Loss and me. I think there are more in that camp than have been vocal about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 I actually think that maybe, the "right" ballot for you, would be one in the middle of the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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