Most Understandable Heel Turns

[Beast]

What heel turns do you think were the most understandable or relatable? Have any achieved genuine pathos? A real tragic quality?

[BigBadMick]

Against Hogan.

[Laz]

Foley going heel after WM14 is it for me. Knowing how much he sacrificed to get to where he was, to earn the opportunity to live out his childhood fantasy, and then to be handcuffed to a cage as four assholes wail away on him only to hear Austin's name chanted? Perfect reason to turn his back on the fans and to go after Austin himself.

[dexstar]

Watching the 6:05 episodes, I didn't think Pez was exactly in the wrong for taking exception to that hillbilly Valiant calling him "the best black athlete".

[grapplin' apple]

After watching a bunch of Mid-South from '84 and on NWAClassics and a little bit of his feud against the Assassin in Georgia in the early '80s, Mr. Wrestling 2 seems like a real asshole and someone that was a natural heel.

[JerryvonKramer]

Did you really side with Assassin in that feud?

 

I mean I fell in love with him, but as an awesome intellectual heel. What did Wrestling 2 do that was heelish?

 

If anyone hasn't watched the build to that feud and the promos, Assassin is legit a top 5 talker of all time.

[goc]

Well I mean of course you would think Mr. Wrestling II was an asshole watching him in Mid-South because that was the role he was playing. I don't see how that carries over to the Georgia feud with Assassin though.

[LowBlowPodcast]

Owen Hart turning on Bret. It was done so well and Owen cut some amazing promos to put it over and make it realist that he was a jealous young brother who was looking to step out of the shadow and show he was better.

[Lust Hogan]

Wahoo McDaniel's heel turn in JCP.

[C.S.]

"I DID IT FOR THE ROCK!"

Seriously, I'm discussing that Rikishi heel turn with someone here now, and while it certainly had major issues, his motive - listing white champion after white champion - was somewhat understandable.

[grapplin' apple]

I guess I just saw certain sides of him that were amplified in Mid-South that you could see briefly in the Georgia feud, like the general crankiness. My main exposure to him was through what is in Mid-South, and his very brief run in Southeastern in '84 which I acquired last year, so that is what I'm going to base my perception of him on. I'll admit that I just briefly watched the 2 vs. Assassin feud. So, the footage that I've seen him as a heel has framed my perception of him. I've seen very little of him as a face, except on NWAClassics.

 

He was an amazingly good asshole though. I'm someone who has cheered for heels since I was about 9 in '87, and even I hate Wrestling 2 as a heel in Mid South and Southeastern.

 

And, yeah, I love the Assassin's heel promos.

[supremebve]

Even as a little kid, I thought the Macho Man was in the right when the Mega Powers exploded. Hulk Hogan was a huge asshole their entire partnership, left him to get his ass kicked by the Twin Towers, and then tried to steal his girlfriend. I have questions about anyone who thought Hogan was justified in his actions.

[NotJayTabb]

Jericho turning heel on Michaels in 2008 was entirely justified. Jericho claims that HBK may have been faking his injury in a PPV match against Batista, but Michaels still continues the lie. When Jericho accepts that Michaels may well have been injured, he gets blasted with a superkick to big cheers as Michaels admits he had been lying to everyone all along. As Jericho himself pointed out on the night he turned, Michaels lied and cheated, and people kept cheering him. Jericho did the right thing and got booed.

[JerryvonKramer]

Even as a little kid, I thought the Macho Man was in the right when the Mega Powers exploded. Hulk Hogan was a huge asshole their entire partnership, left him to get his ass kicked by the Twin Towers, and then tried to steal his girlfriend. I have questions about anyone who thought Hogan was justified in his actions.

Against Hogan.

Honestly believe that Andre was basically justified in his feud too.

 

AND DiBiase was. I covered this in great detail on a show once. But essentially Tunney screwed him.

[Migs]

 

Even as a little kid, I thought the Macho Man was in the right when the Mega Powers exploded. Hulk Hogan was a huge asshole their entire partnership, left him to get his ass kicked by the Twin Towers, and then tried to steal his girlfriend. I have questions about anyone who thought Hogan was justified in his actions.

Against Hogan.

Honestly believe that Andre was basically justified in his feud too.

 

AND DiBiase was. I covered this in great detail on a show once. But essentially Tunney screwed him.

 

 

Orndorff too. When you watch the build to it, Hogan is just a total asshole and Paul comes off as totally right to be pissed at him.

[supremebve]

 

 

Even as a little kid, I thought the Macho Man was in the right when the Mega Powers exploded. Hulk Hogan was a huge asshole their entire partnership, left him to get his ass kicked by the Twin Towers, and then tried to steal his girlfriend. I have questions about anyone who thought Hogan was justified in his actions.

Against Hogan.

Honestly believe that Andre was basically justified in his feud too.

 

AND DiBiase was. I covered this in great detail on a show once. But essentially Tunney screwed him.

 

 

Orndorff too. When you watch the build to it, Hogan is just a total asshole and Paul comes off as totally right to be pissed at him.

 

Since the Network launched I think the biggest revelation is that Hulk Hogan should have been the heel in almost every feud if we used actual logic and not wrestling logic. Remember he pulled Sid out of the ring when he was eliminated in the '92 Rumble? Sid did absolutely nothing wrong, and Hogan acted like a petulant child when he didn't get his way. He is supposed to be our hero. Flair, who we are supposed to believe was the heel, fought tooth and nail to overcome humongous odds to win the match, and we're supposed to boo him.

[dexstar]

Hogan as the real heel in his feuds has been around since I had AOL dialup and an onion tied to my belt in the mid-90s, haha.

 

I think it'd almost be harder to find a feud where he was legitimately the face - probably Earthquake? Slaughter is a tough one to argue he's the heel. The Dungeon ... you'd have to figure out what the hell was going on in the first place to unpack that one.

 

How about Shawn and Marty? Shawn didn't really "do" anything until he superkicked Marty if I recall correctly, and weeks before that, Marty rolled an unconscious Shawn in the ring to take the pinfall from Flair.

 

Sid and Shawn after the WM 11 was weird too - HBK hired Sid to be a bodyguard, and his job was very obviously to interfere on his behalf, so he does, which doesn't even cost him the match, HBK berates him and fires him, and Sid attacks him. And is the heel? Even watching it all back it seems awkward.

[thebrainfollower]

Hogan was the face because he was Hogan. In Vince's world, it doesn't matter what your actions are, how much of a patronizing overbearing whiny sore loser you are if you wrap yourself in a flag and SAY you're the top good guy then you are.

 

Welcome to Reagan's America. Hogan is THE epitome of the right's values at that time. He's the Teflon champ.

 

Undertaker's initial sort of heel turn right before and after Summerslam 98 makes perfect sense. He'd never wanted to feud with Kane, he wanted them to work together as brothers and he has absolutely no reason to like or trust Austin at all. Betraying Kane two months later to reunite with Paul Bearer, a traitor who's not worth anything and has spent 2 years trying to ruin your life makes no sense however.

 

Trish's heel turn in 2004 made sense but allying with Christian, one of the very guys behind the thing that broke her heart made no sense. She also implied that him beating her up in a match once turned her on in her initial heel promo, something as incredibly tasteless as anything Vince Russo ever came up with.

[Hawkeye12]

 

 

 

Even as a little kid, I thought the Macho Man was in the right when the Mega Powers exploded. Hulk Hogan was a huge asshole their entire partnership, left him to get his ass kicked by the Twin Towers, and then tried to steal his girlfriend. I have questions about anyone who thought Hogan was justified in his actions.

Against Hogan.

Honestly believe that Andre was basically justified in his feud too.

 

AND DiBiase was. I covered this in great detail on a show once. But essentially Tunney screwed him.

 

 

Orndorff too. When you watch the build to it, Hogan is just a total asshole and Paul comes off as totally right to be pissed at him.

 

Since the Network launched I think the biggest revelation is that Hulk Hogan should have been the heel in almost every feud if we used actual logic and not wrestling logic. Remember he pulled Sid out of the ring when he was eliminated in the '92 Rumble? Sid did absolutely nothing wrong, and Hogan acted like a petulant child when he didn't get his way. He is supposed to be our hero. Flair, who we are supposed to believe was the heel, fought tooth and nail to overcome humongous odds to win the match, and we're supposed to boo him.

 

Sid specifically sat back and then only chose to dump Hogan, that's still acceptable enough in the case of the Rumble. But then he chose to taunt Hogan and talk trash afterwards (not mentioned during the live Rumble for whatever reason and then noted in the redub) instead of actually trying to win. If that was real sports, yes, Sid is most definitely an arrogant "heel". And that's more childish than Hogan responding IMO. Doesn't mean he can't still be "cool" to some though. Think Terrell Owens scoring the touchdown against the Cowboys, but then standing on the star against Dallas and acting like a jerk. Sure everyone that hates the Cowboys likes it just like Hogan-haters are glad Sid dumped him, but it does make him the bad guy in the situation. And George Teague taking a cheap shot at him is perfectly acceptable comeuppance (and then Emmitt Smith responding in kind when he scored later), just as Hogan grabbing Sid was. Again, celebrating victory is fine, taunting is not, and then hubris rightfully cost him the match and Flair still won.

[Laz]

"I DID IT FOR THE ROCK!"

 

Seriously, I'm discussing that Rikishi heel turn with someone here now, and while it certainly had major issues, his motive - listing white champion after white champion - was somewhat understandable.

In the same light, Ron Killings during the formation of "The Truth."

[thebrainfollower]

You are correct to say Sid was in the wrong as well but that doesn't make what Hogan did right. It's a microcosm of Vince's attitude era explanation of his company well we're not WORSE than the worst things on TV. Fine what are you better than?

 

Hogan is supposed to be a hero he should be able to brush off a little bit of trash talk especially when the only result of his temper tantrum is the guy who cost him the title in the first place now getting it. So he's a whiner and an idiot in kayfabe.

[SteveJRogers]

"Die, Rocky Die!"

Rocky joining The Nation has to be among the top on this list.

 

Also same year both Bret and Shawn's turns were justifiable.

 

Eddie Guerrero and a few years later Batista turning on Rey Mysterio seemed out of justifiable rage.

[supremebve]

 

Sid specifically sat back and then only chose to dump Hogan, that's still acceptable enough in the case of the Rumble. But then he chose to taunt Hogan and talk trash afterwards (not mentioned during the live Rumble for whatever reason and then noted in the redub) instead of actually trying to win. If that was real sports, yes, Sid is most definitely an arrogant "heel". And that's more childish than Hogan responding IMO. Doesn't mean he can't still be "cool" to some though. Think Terrell Owens scoring the touchdown against the Cowboys, but then standing on the star against Dallas and acting like a jerk. Sure everyone that hates the Cowboys likes it just like Hogan-haters are glad Sid dumped him, but it does make him the bad guy in the situation. And George Teague taking a cheap shot at him is perfectly acceptable comeuppance (and then Emmitt Smith responding in kind when he scored later), just as Hogan grabbing Sid was. Again, celebrating victory is fine, taunting is not, and then hubris rightfully cost him the match and Flair still won.

I couldn't disagree more. Just because you don't like how someone acts doesn't mean that what they did was actually wrong. Sid didn't break a single rule while throwing Hogan out. He can trash talk all he wants, it is frowned upon, but not wrong. What Hogan did was wrong. When you are eliminated from the Royal Rumble it is 100% wrong to eliminate someone from the floor. A grown ass man throwing a temper tantrum is far worse than a dude celebrating an accomplishment. If George Teague didn't want T.O. to pose on the star, maybe he should have tackled him before he got into the end zone and not afterwards. T.O. is celebrating an incredible difficult accomplishment, George Teague is a low-bottom hater. I'm always going to support the person who actually accomplishes something and never support the butt hurt haters who can't deal with another man's success.

[Judy Bagwell]

Even as a little kid, I thought the Macho Man was in the right when the Mega Powers exploded. Hulk Hogan was a huge asshole their entire partnership, left him to get his ass kicked by the Twin Towers, and then tried to steal his girlfriend. I have questions about anyone who thought Hogan was justified in his actions.

Hogan and Liz were strictly platonic and valued fidelity. Savage was borderline insane and intensely jealous of any wrestler who even made eye contact with her. Hogan always looked for Randy and withou his help Savage would never have become champion.

As time went on Hogan had to do right by Liz and the WWF by taking out this woman abusing psychopath.

[supremebve]

 

Even as a little kid, I thought the Macho Man was in the right when the Mega Powers exploded. Hulk Hogan was a huge asshole their entire partnership, left him to get his ass kicked by the Twin Towers, and then tried to steal his girlfriend. I have questions about anyone who thought Hogan was justified in his actions.

Hogan and Liz were strictly platonic and valued fidelity. Savage was borderline insane and intensely jealous of any wrestler who even made eye contact with her. Hogan always looked for Randy and withou his help Savage would never have become champion.

As time went on Hogan had to do right by Liz and the WWF by taking out this woman abusing psychopath.

 

I don't know if any of you guys know Judy Bagwell(If that is your real name) personally, but I wouldn't trust him(or her) around your significant other. Macho Man wasn't jealous, Hogan was pushing up on his girl. Not only was he pushing up on his girl, Hogan left Savage to fight two humongous men, to carry Elizabeth to the back. Anyone with a brain could see that Hogan was trying to use Liz's "injury" to get Macho Man out of the picture so he can steal his girlfriend. First of all, her fall wasn't that bad. Second, there are medical professionals in the arena who are getting paid very well to give Liz the any aid she may need. Third, he knew Savage couldn't possibly overcome a team as large or as vicious as the Twin Towers by himself. He hoped that he could use Liz's minor injury to lead to Savage's major injury. When Savage was fighting for his life, what was Hogan doing? He was sitting by Liz's bed holding her hand so when she woke up he could put the moves on her, have sex, and then go on a racist rant(just saying, based on what we know that is what would have happened.). I can't say for sure that Liz was in on this nefarious scheme, but I wouldn't put it past that mischievous jezebel.