Reactions to the List: 100-51

[Eegah]

IRS doesnt care about your card placement, brother.

[Ricky Jackson]

The teams the Roadies lost the straps (AWA/NWA/WWF) to were all super unimpressive at the time, although at least DiBiase and Rotundo became a permanent, long-term team

[InYourCase]

Would Doc make it for you without the stuff from 94-5?

You weren't asking me but Doc almost made it on my list simply for his 94-95 run. He's so bad in WCW that in my mind, I just couldn't rank him. I guess it's pretty easy to have ****3/4-***** when you're wrestling Kobashi and Kawada in their prime. That's the way I look at Doc.

[goodhelmet]

Is anyone who is pro-Andre also anti-Taker? I find that unlikely.

Here. The bad Andre was when he was broken down and old. Up until the mid 80s, Andre was pretty consistently great. Taker has some great matches but consistency is not his friend. Plus he really sucked throughout the 90s.

[JerryvonKramer]

Will probably hasn't watched a lot of late 70s or early 80s Andre in WWF, so I totally get how he can have that opinion.

[goodhelmet]

I have but I also consider his opponent.

[JerryvonKramer]

"Consistently great" seems to be pushing it considering how much he dogged it on a regular basis.

 

I'm pro-Andre, anti-Taker though.

[Dylan Waco]

Happy Tajiri did as well as he did. I had him a bit higher than this, but not so much higher that this placement feels like a slight to me on any level. He's a guy who is way more versatile than people give him credit for, and also has a case for being one of the more consistent wrestlers of last 20 years or so. He's also a guy had a deceptively long run of quality wrestling, along with an amazingly strong peak, even if it's a peak that virtually no one else has explored as completely as I have.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

One fix to BIGLAV I should have made is a special negative category where I get to stick minus points on people for various things. Someone like Taker would end up on a negative overall score.

This is one thing I keep forgetting to mention.

 

You keep shitting on Taker for all the crap but he did make your Top 105 or whatever because BIGLAV didn't factor in negatives. Well I'm the same, the JIMBOB system doesn't really factor in negatives either. I focused on positives - their best work, peaks, positive attributes, lists of great matches, etc. - and didn't worry so much about anyone's negatives or bad periods. If I did, assholes like Hunter and Angle would have fucked right off.

 

I'm not saying Taker would have fucked off my list if I did, in fact I'm almost certain he'd have been on my list anyway, mainly because you and I just disagree markedly on how much bad stuff there is and how bad it really was (not to mention how good the good stuff is). But I'm just saying that when you say things like "he had some good stuff but simply mountains of crap, how can you rank him?" I'm saying I didn't think in that framework at all when making my list. I focused on the good stuff.

 

This is one of those things I might have to change if I had my time again. BIGLAV needed a seventh category ("Consistency").

 

One of the reasons I am against factoring "negatives" is because they are so often just bollocks -- I think of Flair working crappy trash matches with Mick Foley (although some people like that one), feuds with Carlito over the IC title, and tags with Batista, shit that is in NO WAY revelant to his case at all. People who bring that stuff up when it comes to Ric's GWE case are basically assholes in my view and they can fuck off with that shit.

 

I wanted to be totally consistant with that so I didn't hold anyone's post-peak against them beyond where I cut off the year. Fewer years as one of the best in the world = fewer points. In Flair's case, it really didn't matter cos he was demonstrably one of the 30 best wrestlers in the world 78-94, which got him a decent score in that category anyway. Of course, he would have aced "consistency" 10/10 if I'd added that, because, well he was consistently outstanding every night for a decade on a level seldom witnessed in pro wrestling.

 

Let's think about the years I didn't give Ric there, 1995 when he had memorable matches with Arn and Savage and carried two non-wrestlers (Kevin Greene and Steve McMichael) to an enjoyable match. He also had a good match with Sting and Luger that year. In 96 there's more Savage stuff.

 

Flair's 95-6 adds basically nothing to his case. I don't think he got a single BIGLAV point for any of it. It's irrelevent to him. He was still GOOD, still having watchable and enjoyable matches, still having meaningful feuds, etc., but none of that stuff really matters to his case. Let's imagine Undertaker had a year like Flair's 1995 or 1996, it would be trumpeted as some massive achievement, and the stuff would be pointed to as evidence for him. Having some okay years like that don't add much to a GWE case.

 

The guys who benefitted most from me not factoring in "negatives" turned out not to be Flair at all, Flair is the GOAT so he doesn't need help. It was these guys:

 

Rick Steiner

Scott Steiner

Sting

Inoki

Muta

Steve Austin

Shawn Michaels

John Cena

 

To me these guys made my ballot because I didn't hold all the crap they did DURING their supposed peaks (let alone post-peaks) against them.

 

The difference between most of those guys and The Undertaker is that those guys mostly could go and they were mechanically sound.

 

It makes a difference, I suppose, that I don't see the Undertaker's much raved about matches as ***** affairs. I think they are mostly bad, mostly near-fall wankfests that represent stuff I don't like about modern WWE. Cena got so high on my list partly because he was somehow able to have great matches that didn't fall prey to those tropes (although he has many more that do, and I don't like them).

[Dylan Waco]

Not a troll - what Flair footage do I need to watch from 78-80 that illustrates Flair was top level on Earth those years?

[JerryvonKramer]

Mostly the garbage tapes.

 

I don't think anyone can watch that stuff and come out of it thinking that Flair or Steamboat weren't two of the top workers in the world. Not like #1 and #2, but definitely in the mix.

[JerryvonKramer]

Also when he crops up in St. Louis footage in that time frame.

 

Dylan, a very handy resource for this is the old Best of Flair comp. Someone has put it onto youtube:

 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzttD23OW3w-Aj2oPzpVLweSrKi8lACXG

 

Discs 1-5 give you a pretty good idea of what Ric was about 78-80. A good 10 hours of footage.

 

Listings (although I think this is a different comp, some of the same stuff on there). Some of the clips from the garbage tapes are 15+ mins. It's not like it is hard to tell that it is very good.

 

 

 

Disc 1 (2:07:21)

 

1. ''Nature Boy'' Ric Flair

 

2. Early Years From Childhood

 

3. Remembering The Early Years

 

4. Early Photos From Childhood

 

5. (Clip) (1973) The Wrestler

 

 

6. Int - Ric Flair and the origin of "WOOOOO!!!!!"

 

7. 12/14/73 (AWA) Vs Chris Taylor

 

8. 7/15/74 (Clip) Vs Swede Hanson

 

9. July/1974 (Int) Ric Flair/Rip Hawk

 

10. 2/8/75 (Clip) Vs Paul Jones

 

11. 7/26/75 (Clip) Vs Wahoo Mcdaniel

 

12. 10/4/75 WWE Confidential (Feature) Plane Crash

 

13. 1/31/76 (Clip) Vs Wahoo Mcdaniel

 

14. 3/1/76 (Msg) Vs Pete Sanchez

 

15. 11/25/76 (Clip) Battle Royal

 

16. 4/10/77 (Clip) Ric Flair/Greg Valentine Vs Ole/Gene Anderson

 

17. 5/8/77 (Cage) (Clip) Ric Flair/Greg Valentine Vs Ole/Gene Anderson

 

18. June/1977 (Clip) Vs Bobo Brazil

 

19. 6/15/77 (Jip) Vs Ricky Steamboat

 

20. 6/19/77 (Clip) Vs Wahoo Mcdaniel

 

21. 7/3/77 (Clip) Vs Ricky Steamboat

 

 

 

 

 

 

Disc 2 (2:02:13)

 

1. 11/24/77 (Clip) Battle Royal

 

2. 3/19/78 (Clip) Ric Flair/Greg Valentine Vs Wahoo Mcdaniel/Ole Anderson

 

3. April/1978 (Clip) Vs Dick Murdoch

 

4. 4/27/78 (All Japan Wrestling) Vs Jumbo Tsuruta (First 2 Falls of a 2/3 falls

match)

 

5. 4/27/78 (All Japan Wrestling) Vs Jumbo Tsuruta (Fall #3)

 

6. 5/15/78 (Clip) Vs Dick Murdoch

 

7. 6/3/78 (Clip) Ric Flair/Masked Superstar Vs Ricky Steamboat/Blackjack

Mulligan

 

8. 6/4/78 (Clip) Ric Flair/Greg Valentine Vs Wahoo Mcdaniel/Blackjack Mulligan

 

9. 6/17/78 (Clip) Vs Wahoo Mcdaniel

 

10. 6/18/78 (Clip) Ric Flair/Harley Race/Masked Superstar Vs Wahoo Mcdaniel/Blackjack

Mulligan/Dick Murdoch

 

11. 7/16/78 (Clip) Vs Ricky Steamboat

 

12. 7/30/78 (Clip) Vs Blackjack Mulligan

 

 

 

 

 

Disc 3 (1:56:23)

 

1. 8/13/78 (Clip) Vs Blackjack Mulligan

 

2. 8/22/78 (Clip) Vs Ricky Steamboat

 

3. 9/16/78 (Clip) Vs Ted Dibiase

 

4. 9/17/78 (Clip) Vs Ricky Steamboat/Special Referee Andre The Giant

 

5. 9/23/78 (Clip) Ric Flair/Ken Patera Vs Andre The Giant/Blackjack Mulligan

 

6. Oct/1978 (Promo #1) " Nature Boy" Ric Flair

 

7. Oct/1978 (Promo #2) "Nature Boy" Ric Flair

 

8. 10/21/78 Ric Flair/Ricky Steamboat Face Rubbing Angle

 

9. 10/23/78 (Clip) Vs Blackjack Mulligan

 

10. 11/4/78 Ric Flair/Ricky Steamboat Revenge

 

11. 11/4/78 (Clip) Vs Ricky Steamboat

 

12. 11/7/78 (Clip) Ric Flair/Ken Patera Vs Ricky Steamboat/Tony Atlas

 

13. Nov/1978 (Clip) Vs Ricky Steamboat

 

14. 11/13/78 (Clip) Vs Ricky Steamboat

 

15. 11/14/78 (Clip) Vs Ricky Steamboat

 

16. 11/17/78 (Clip) Vs Ricky Steamboat

 

17. 11/23/78 (Cage) (Clip) Vs Blackjack Mulligan

 

18. 12/1/78 (Cage) (Clip) Vs Blackjack Mulligan

 

 

 

Disc 4 (1:32:41)

 

1. 12/3/78 (Clip) Battle Royal

 

2. 12/25/78 (Cage) (Clip) Vs Blackjack Mulligan

 

3. Dec/1978 (Int) Ric Flair/Big John Studd/Greg Valentine

 

4. Dec/1978 (Int) Ric Flair/Big John Studd/Ken Patera

 

5. 12/30/78 (Promo) Ricky Steamboat

 

6. 12/30/78 (Promo) Ric Flair

 

7. Jan/1979 (Promo) Paul Orndorff/Jimmy Snuka

 

8. Jan/1979 (Promo) Ric Flair/Big John Studd

 

9. 1/7/79 (Clip) Ric Flair/Big John Studd Vs Paul Orndorff/Jimmy Snuka

 

10. 1/13/79 ((Clip) Ric Flair/Greg Valentine Vs Paul Orndorff/Jimmy Snuka

 

11. 1/23/79 (Clip) Vs Ricky Steamboat

 

12. 1/28/79 (Clip) Ric Flair/Greg Valentine Vs Paul Orndorff/Jimmy Snuka

 

13. 2/11/79 (Clip) Vs Jimmy Snuka

 

14. 3/12/79 (Clip) Ric Flair/Big Cat Ernie Ladd Vs Ricky Steamboat/Dino Bravo

 

15. 3/21/79 (WWW) Vs Nick Decarlo

 

16. 3/21/79 (WWW) (Int) Ric Flair/Big John Studd/Big Cat Ernie Ladd

 

17. 9/2/79 (Clip) Ric Flair/Blackjack Mulligan Vs Paul Jones/Baron Von Raschke

 

 

 

Disc 5 (1:52:25)

 

1. 10/7/79 (Clip) Vs Jimmy Snuka

 

2. 3/7/80 (Clip) Vs Jack Brisco

 

3. 4/20/80 (Clip) Vs Jimmy Snuka

 

4. 6/8/80 (Int) Ric Flair/Ric Flair/Greg Valentine Vs Jimmy Snuka/Iron Skeik

 

5. 8/18/80 (Clip) Vs Greg Valentine

 

6. 10/22/80 Vs Genichiro Tenryu

 

7. 12/16/80 Vs Greg Valentine

 

8. Feb/1981 (MACW) (Int) Ric Flair/Roddy Piper

 

9. 1/27/81 (Clip) Vs Rowdy Roddy Piper

 

10. 4/4/81 (GCW) Vs Rick Harris

 

11. 5/20/81 (WWW) (Int) Ric Flair

 

12. 5/20/81 (Jip) Vs Jim Nelson

 

13. 7/17/81 (Wrestling At Chase) Vs Pat O'connor

 

14. Aug/1981 (Wrestling At Chase) (Jip) Vs Tommy Sharpe

 

15. 8/22/81 (GCW) Vs Ken Timbs

 

16. 8/22/81 (GCW) (Int) Ric Flair

 

17. 9/10/81 (Clip) (Florida) Vs Mike Graham

 

18. 9/12/81 (GCW) Vs Mark Watson

 

19. 9/12/81 (GCW) (Int) Ric Flair

 

 

[overbooked]

Mostly the garbage tapes.

 

I don't think anyone can watch that stuff and come out of it thinking that Flair or Steamboat weren't two of the top workers in the world. Not like #1 and #2, but definitely in the mix.

Watching some of that stuff was a revelation, that both guys were that good that early on. The crowds too!

[Jesse Ewiak]

Just a reminder that for all of our complaining about whether 'Taker needs to be on the list or that random awesome lucha guy is too low at #133 - your average "smart" fan thinks Jericho is a top 10 of all time guy - https://www.reddit.com/r/WredditCountryClub/comments/4fjj4u/does_chris_jericho_have_a_legit_claim_to_being/ so even if all of us have terrible opinions, we still don't have the worst opinions.

[Dylan Waco]

I respect that, but I can't really give serious credence to it. I have no real doubts that Flair and Steamer were great then, that Terry was great as NWA champ, that Bock was great all throughout the 70s. I think we can look at those scraps as addendums to a case and gladly do so myself, but in the absence of at least a couple complete matches of some length I really struggle to see why those years should be seen as gimmes in this sort of calculus.

 

I'd say Flair was top 30 on Earth every year from 82-90. Most of those years he's no worse than top 10. 91? I'd listen to an argument, but I don't think it's readily obvious at all. 92? I'm not sure he was even top 10 in the U.S. That year, Lucha had some guys making great runs, and Japan was really deep. Maybe but it's not a gimme at all. 93? Without digging too much, and just thinking about it on the surface, it seems unlikely. 94 I'd say almost certainly not.

 

That said, I agree that from 82-96 Flair was no worse than good, and in more than half of those years great. Because I care about entire careers, I could probably be convinced to give him 05 and 06 too on that scale.

 

The longevity of Flairs run as a great worker is vastly overstated by many, but he was a good or great worker for 17 or 18 years cumulatively.

[JerryvonKramer]

Just a reminder that for all of our complaining about whether 'Taker needs to be on the list or that random awesome lucha guy is too low at #133 - your average "smart" fan thinks Jericho is a top 10 of all time guy - https://www.reddit.com/r/WredditCountryClub/comments/4fjj4u/does_chris_jericho_have_a_legit_claim_to_being/ so even if all of us have terrible opinions, we still don't have the worst opinions.

Back when we did the WTBBP countdown show, I shared it with a place I post on sometimes that has a casual wrestling section (that I don't really go into). Some snippets:

 

 

15 minutes into the Top 100 wrestlers podcast, the one guy finally starts discussing his list with 100 through 91. I heard ...

 

98. Hogan

97. Austin

96. Lesnar

...

94. Waltman

 

... and that was enough for me.

You'd be hard pressed to find any fan of wrestling that was around during their heydays who wouldn't laugh at that listing.

Even based on in-ring skills alone. My god. I'll ignore the spinkick wonder for now. Brock Lesnar at 96? Really? Come on, man.

Thanks Chad, it took you less than 15 minutes to lose the casual audience!

[JerryvonKramer]

I respect that, but I can't really give serious credence to it. I have no real doubts that Flair and Steamer were great then, that Terry was great as NWA champ, that Bock was great all throughout the 70s. I think we can look at those scraps as addendums to a case and gladly do so myself, but in the absence of at least a couple complete matches of some length I really struggle to see why those years should be seen as gimmes in this sort of calculus.

 

I'd say Flair was top 30 on Earth every year from 82-90. Most of those years he's no worse than top 10. 91? I'd listen to an argument, but I don't think it's readily obvious at all. 92? I'm not sure he was even top 10 in the U.S. That year, Lucha had some guys making great runs, and Japan was really deep. Maybe but it's not a gimme at all. 93? Without digging too much, and just thinking about it on the surface, it seems unlikely. 94 I'd say almost certainly not.

 

That said, I agree that from 82-96 Flair was no worse than good, and in more than half of those years great. Because I care about entire careers, I could probably be convinced to give him 05 and 06 too on that scale.

 

The longevity of Flairs run as a great worker is vastly overstated by many, but he was a good or great worker for 17 or 18 years cumulatively.

If you hold everyone to the standards of Flair's best ever years then only a handful of guys ever came close to being on that level. I wouldn't give Fujinami a single year at that level, and I think Fujinami has some outstanding years.

[MasterJonBurr]

Is anyone who is pro-Andre also anti-Taker? I find that unlikely.

A few folks have chimed in, already, and wouldn't you belong in the pro-Andre, anti-taker camp yourself? And I imagine a cursory glance at the old nominees listings would prove out that plenty old Skool marks are probably in this camp. There's lots of Taker antipathy, while Andre is pretty beloved but, really, they're two of the most protected wrestlers ever whom I happen to think are pretty intelligent workers during the peaks of their careers. I didn't rank either of them in my GWE list, but I enjoy parts of both of their careers. I just think their careers have marked similarities and think their appraisals on this board are waaaaaay dissimilar. Again, this is not me saying taker is better than Andre or that Andre sucks!

 

Yours,

JHHBjr

[Microstatistics]

 

I respect that, but I can't really give serious credence to it. I have no real doubts that Flair and Steamer were great then, that Terry was great as NWA champ, that Bock was great all throughout the 70s. I think we can look at those scraps as addendums to a case and gladly do so myself, but in the absence of at least a couple complete matches of some length I really struggle to see why those years should be seen as gimmes in this sort of calculus.

 

I'd say Flair was top 30 on Earth every year from 82-90. Most of those years he's no worse than top 10. 91? I'd listen to an argument, but I don't think it's readily obvious at all. 92? I'm not sure he was even top 10 in the U.S. That year, Lucha had some guys making great runs, and Japan was really deep. Maybe but it's not a gimme at all. 93? Without digging too much, and just thinking about it on the surface, it seems unlikely. 94 I'd say almost certainly not.

 

That said, I agree that from 82-96 Flair was no worse than good, and in more than half of those years great. Because I care about entire careers, I could probably be convinced to give him 05 and 06 too on that scale.

 

The longevity of Flairs run as a great worker is vastly overstated by many, but he was a good or great worker for 17 or 18 years cumulatively.

If you hold everyone to the standards of Flair's best ever years then only a handful of guys ever came close to being on that level. I wouldn't give Fujinami a single year at that level, and I think Fujinami has some outstanding years.

 

I would say Fujinami's 1980 is better than any Flair year except maybe 1989.

[JerryvonKramer]

We'll have to agree to disagree. Although I do think his 1980 was outstanding.

 

What are the ***** Fujinami matches from 1980?

[Dylan Waco]

Have you finished the 80s NJPW stuff yet? If not I'm not sure if it's really fair to make a definitive statement on Fujinami that is that strong.

 

Can't remember if it was you or Loss (probably both) who said Flair's real case is made from 82-89. I basically agree with that, though I'd probably extend it to 90, and "the good years" likely means more to me than it does to you. In any event I think Flair in 82, 85-89 is definitely top ten in the World at least going from memory. IIRC 83 is one of those weird years where there isn't a deep amount of great Flair on tape, which might possibly keep him out of a top ten. Drawing a blank on 84 right now for some reason too, though I love the Steamboat match from the Meadowlands that year. Anyway, the point is that I think very, very highly of Flair in those years. And yet if pressed I could probably find someone in everyone of those years who I think was at least in the discussion for being as good or better.

 

I do agree with the general sentiment that Flair at his best was better than most anyone ever.

[Microstatistics]

Also, based on what I have seen, I would say Fujinami was a strong contender for worker of the year for atleast 1983, 1986, 1988. For Flair his 1985 was extremely impressive for sheer volume alone.

 

No ***** matches, but nearly all matches I would say were **** or better but more importantly an insane amount of variety and range.

[JerryvonKramer]

You know what I'm going to stick to the idea of never discussing Flair again, at least till GWE is over.

 

If contrarians want to have their day in the sun, so be it. I can live with them having a different view.

[Microstatistics]

I mean I think Flair is a great wrestler and one of the best ones from the US in the the 1980s. His volume of decent to good stuff is pretty crazy. Just don't agree his best years blow someone like Fujinami's best years out of the water.

[JerryvonKramer]

That wasn't aimed at anyone in particular btw, just burnt out on it.

 

The main thing I want now is to be the high vote on Ted so I can have him as my avatar.