Reactions to the List: 100-51

[Dylan Waco]

That wasn't aimed at anyone in particular btw, just burnt out on it.

 

The main thing I want now is to be the high vote on Ted so I can have him as my avatar.

 

The contrarian line is a cheapshot and you should own it if you mean it.

 

Even when you praise Flair you are a contrarian now. The only acceptable stance is praise, worship, and complete devotion. Watching footage only matters if it is used in the service of Ric, drawing other conclusions, and discovering others who might be at his admittedly all time great level in a given year is a grave sin that must be dismissed as hipsterish trolling.

 

That is my takeaway from interacting with you on Flair in this thread, even though I think I was actually very fair in my treatment of someone who I see as an all time great too.

[JerryvonKramer]

On Fujinami I really respect his level of consistency. But I guess I'm always looking for those five-star signature singles matches.

 

Stuff to file alongside Misawa vs Kawada in the pantheon, y'know.

[JerryvonKramer]

I also have a question for guys who had Hansen at #1.

 

I really think his best matches stand with anyone's, but do you see him as consistency guy in the week in, week out?

 

One thing I do respect about Matt D's methods is that he won't bee-line to the best stuff; he'll stubbornly mire himself in the average stuff, the random stuff.

 

Did make me wonder. I think most of the Hansen I've seen has been cherry pickings. I mean, there are a shit load of cherries, but it's still something I'd like to ask about.

 

I had Hansen #7 btw

[Dylan Waco]

I don't recall ever seeing a Hansen match that would work against him. He had disappointing matches against some good/great workers, though not in the sense that they were disappointing because they were outright bad. In the random AJPW stuff that comes up he always looks good and I don't recall going through any AWA footage where I thought he underwhelmed

 

Edit: I responded, but I'm not ready to say where I rated Hansen yet.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

That wasn't aimed at anyone in particular btw, just burnt out on it.

 

The main thing I want now is to be the high vote on Ted so I can have him as my avatar.

The contrarian line is a cheapshot and you should own it if you mean it.

 

Even when you praise Flair you are a contrarian now. The only acceptable stance is praise, worship, and complete devotion. Watching footage only matters if it is used in the service of Ric, drawing other conclusions, and discovering others who might be at his admittedly all time great level in a given year is a grave sin that must be dismissed as hipsterish trolling.

 

That is my takeaway from interacting with you on Flair in this thread, even though I think I was actually very fair in my treatment of someone who I see as an all time great too.

I am just done with discussing him. We've been over the peak boundaries so many times. If someone else had had his 1992 it would be held up as a banner year (factor in Tenryu match too). For Ric it's considered post-peak.

 

If the question is do I think you, specifically, are a contrarian and wrestling hipster ... Of course I do. And I look forward to your stuff on 90s AJ. I am just so done with Flair as a topic.

 

But being contrarian is all relative. Look at me on Taker or HBK or even Lawler.

[JerryvonKramer]

Just to wrap up on it so Dylan doesn't think I'm being evasive:

 

My impression is that around 90-1 WCW Flair is just plain burnt out. In the promos it feels like the light has gone out of his eyes.

 

We know he was stressed heading up the booking committee and dealing with Jim Herd.

 

Still has v. Good stuff with Luger, your boy Pillman, Eaton and others during that time-frame.

 

If Arn Anderson had had those matches you'd count it as career-best sort of stuff, Flair's bar is just that much higher.

 

So that's why I give him the early 90s

 

Was 90-4 as good as 85-89? No, but how does it compare with Rick Rude's 89 which we'd typically give him or any given year for Arn?

 

Hope you see where I'm coming from.

 

Let me know so I can stop talking Ric.

[overbooked]

I'm a Hansen guy.

 

I'm also not really a strong Great Matches guy, although of course I enjoy good matches. I just don't see Great Matches as the key appeal of pro wrestling.

 

I watch wrestling for those moments where it feels real, where it elicits a genuine, visceral, emotional reaction. That doesn't mean I don't engage with criticism or analysis, more that I think wrestling at its best transcends all that, or at least hides all the cracks and working parts. I want to feel moved by wrestling, for it to feel like a human interaction, not a clinical, purely intellectual pursuit.

 

Snowflakes leave me cold. Excuse the pun.

 

I find value in those little moments, those inconsequential matches. I find that value when there are moments that provoke a real emotion, and an emotion of the real.

 

And I don't think anyone does that any better than Stan Hansen. He is such a force of nature that you have to believe. It doesn't just look real, it feels real, and by all accounts probably wasn't far off being real. Even when things don't fall perfectly in place, his matches present as being real, the struggle looks legitimate. And he does all that without resorting to shoot-style nonsense, he does it all within the parameters of proper pro wrestling. He is compelling to watch. He is exhausting to watch. He makes me believe again.

[Dylan Waco]

Just to wrap up on it so Dylan doesn't think I'm being evasive:

 

My impression is that around 90-1 WCW Flair is just plain burnt out. In the promos it feels like the light has gone out of his eyes.

 

We know he was stressed heading up the booking committee and dealing with Jim Herd.

 

Still has v. Good stuff with Luger, your boy Pillman, Eaton and others during that time-frame.

 

If Arn Anderson had had those matches you'd count it as career-best sort of stuff, Flair's bar is just that much higher.

 

So that's why I give him the early 90s

 

Was 90-4 as good as 85-89? No, but how does it compare with Rick Rude's 89 which we'd typically give him or any given year for Arn?

 

Hope you see where I'm coming from.

 

Let me know so I can stop talking Ric.

 

I do count those matches as positives for Ric. Ric will be WAY above Arn on my ballot. They aren't fighting for the same spot to me. That said I would take Arn in 92 over Flair in 91. or 92. or 93. or 94. I haven't thought enough about Rude's 89 to say how I would rate that in relation to Flair's 91, but I didn't even rate Rude.

[El-P]

I'm very surprised Steve Williams did as good as he did atthis point, it seemed a lot of people were down on his AJPW and hated his WCW work. He was my #89 this time around.

 

I had Tajiri at #72. I wonder if I don't overrated him a little bit simply because he was so great in ECW. I don't think his WWE years had much (really, what really good matches did he have over there ?), and I wanted to watch the SMASH stuff but didn't get to. Very interesting career.

(more Ric Flair talk already ? want to kill the unveiling thread or what ?)

[JerryvonKramer]

 

Just to wrap up on it so Dylan doesn't think I'm being evasive:

 

My impression is that around 90-1 WCW Flair is just plain burnt out. In the promos it feels like the light has gone out of his eyes.

 

We know he was stressed heading up the booking committee and dealing with Jim Herd.

 

Still has v. Good stuff with Luger, your boy Pillman, Eaton and others during that time-frame.

 

If Arn Anderson had had those matches you'd count it as career-best sort of stuff, Flair's bar is just that much higher.

 

So that's why I give him the early 90s

 

Was 90-4 as good as 85-89? No, but how does it compare with Rick Rude's 89 which we'd typically give him or any given year for Arn?

 

Hope you see where I'm coming from.

 

Let me know so I can stop talking Ric.

I do count those matches as positives for Ric. Ric will be WAY above Arn on my ballot. They aren't fighting for the same spot to me. That said I would take Arn in 92 over Flair in 91. or 92. or 93. or 94. I haven't thought enough about Rude's 89 to say how I would rate that in relation to Flair's 91, but I didn't even rate Rude.

 

I guess I'm saying those years are in the same sort of ballpark as a best Arn year. Like sure, Arn's 92 might have been better or whatever, but it's same ball park.

 

I'm actually a really big fan of the 1990 iteration of the Horsemen and we get more of Arn and Flair tagging that year. Plus there's this:

 

 

Which I always mark for. Just KNOW it's coming.

 

To move away from Flair, there is a question about grading on a curve.

 

I tried not to grade on a curve. I didn't rate #1 guys differently from #60-70 type guys, just all against the same criteria around the same sort of levels.

 

Did you think *differently* about the top 10 guys from the Arns of this world? Just seems like you might have from what you've said. And I can actually see a solid rationale for doing so, but worth talking about -- probably more than the specifics of a career that has been raked over to the point where most of us are tapping out.

[El-P]

Can we save the fucking Ric Flair discussion for when he shows up ? Seriously now, the fact Flair got the most discussion time for this GWE overall really tarnished the fun of the whole thing. No wonder the lucha/joshi/european/shootsyle guys took a hit if the biggest topic is freaking Ric Flair in 2016. Whatever...

[JerryvonKramer]

Can we save the fucking Ric Flair discussion for when he shows up ? Seriously now, the fact Flair got the most discussion time for this GWE overall really tarnished the fun of the whole thing. No wonder the lucha/joshi/european/shootsyle guys took a hit if the biggest topic is freaking Ric Flair in 2016. Whatever...

With the DVDR 1980s sets coming out during the 10 years after 2006, there was ALWAYS going to be an increase in Flair discussion.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't think I thought differently about Arn than how I thought about Ric or Hansen or whoever when it came to ranking them and I'm kind of confused about what in my post would have led you to think otherwise. I was just stating the obvious point, which is that Arn was never really competing for a number one position in my eyes. Arn does not have a career that is going to get him to that level. Saying that does not mean that I didn't look at the same basic things when thinking about Arn as I did for Misawa, Bock, Funk, or whoever.

 

I also think Arn's 92 was pretty exceptional, and a good bit better than Ric's 91 was for whatever that is worth.

[El-P]

 

Can we save the fucking Ric Flair discussion for when he shows up ? Seriously now, the fact Flair got the most discussion time for this GWE overall really tarnished the fun of the whole thing. No wonder the lucha/joshi/european/shootsyle guys took a hit if the biggest topic is freaking Ric Flair in 2016. Whatever...

With the DVDR 1980s sets coming out during the 10 years after 2006, there was ALWAYS going to be an increase in Flair discussion.

 

 

Not everyone watched or cared about the fucking DVDVR 80's set either. Flair is the most boring great wrestler at this point. Even talking about Misawa or Toyota seems fresh in comparison.

 

Waiting for Arn to drop BTW, the later the better.

[Matt D]

I don't recall ever seeing a Hansen match that would work against him. He had disappointing matches against some good/great workers, though not in the sense that they were disappointing because they were outright bad. In the random AJPW stuff that comes up he always looks good and I don't recall going through any AWA footage where I thought he underwhelmed

 

Edit: I responded, but I'm not ready to say where I rated Hansen yet.

Well, we disagree there but I've stated my thoughts at length.

 

As for Taker, I am Taker-neutral,

[jamesie_2015]

Can I ask here as I'm not sure where else to ask - was there a 00's indies project done in the last few years? I read mention of it in the Daniel Bryan thread?

 

Hopefully this isn't too off topic. Thanks.

[JerryvonKramer]

Not everyone watched or cared about the fucking DVDVR 80's set either

I think it's important to recognise that lots of people here did care about them, and that they have really helped to form our views on a lot of guys. As well as brought us together as fans. The 90s Yearbooks were too, but I personally missed the boat on them cos I couldn't keep pace.

 

I realise you've been around since the 1990s, and see recent developments either as old hat or trifling matters, but you don't seem to recognise or respect the current make-up of the community.

[El-P]

 

Not everyone watched or cared about the fucking DVDVR 80's set either

I think it's important to recognise that lots of people here did care about them, and that they have really helped to form our views on a lot of guys. As well as brought us together as fans. The 90s Yearbooks were too, but I personally missed the boat on them cos I couldn't keep pace.

 

I realise you've been around since the 1990s, and see recent developments either as old hat or trifling matters, but you don't seem to recognise or respect the current make-up of the community.

 

 

I couldn't care less. I've never been a part of the DVDVR crowd anyway, although I always enjoyed a bunch of them (loved DEAN since the very early DVDVRs). I never cared about the results of these project and it never meant shit to me as far as creating new opinions and consensus. It was always a niche of a niche of a niche. Don't get me wrong, I think those project were terrific in themselves (as are the Yearbooks), but I never needed them to make my own opinions. I'd rather watch shitloads of TV simply because the selection of matches was subjective to begin with.

 

I'm a Marxist from the Groucho type, I don't want to be part of a club that would have me as a member anyway. So there.

[Loss]

Then why are you here? I don't mean that to be a dig. I'm just asking -- why are you here?

[cheapshot]

 

That wasn't aimed at anyone in particular btw, just burnt out on it.

 

The main thing I want now is to be the high vote on Ted so I can have him as my avatar.

 

The contrarian line is a cheapshot and you should own it if you mean it.

 

 

 

 

You called?

[El-P]

Then why are you here? I don't mean that to be a dig. I'm just asking -- why are you here?

 

Because this is the best pro-wrestling board around and I kinda made it my home since I left Smarkchoice sometime in the late 00's (probably following some people I liked, much like when I left Spider Twist for SC a few years before).

 

But that doesn't mean I feel concerned by the constant reference to the DVDVR sets like their results were some kind of gospel or representative of anything to me, for instance.

[Loss]

Fair enough. I took "I don't want to be part of a club that would have me as a member anyway" as "I hate it here and want no part of this", but if that's not what you meant, great.

[El-P]

That's not what I mean at all by that, I've said many times that this board is probably the best and most fun I've been involved with. It's just that I have a loner mentality.

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't think Jerome was talking about the board as such but his own opinions.

[El-P]

Exactly.

 

To give you an exemple, the idea of "let's all watch the same stuff at the same time together so we can have a sense of community" is something I'm actively running away from. I've always been like that, about everything.