Reactions to the List: 50-26

[Superstar Sleeze]

I cant believe Bret is going to finish higher than Shawn. Bullshit. I cant wrap my head around a Bret is better than Shawn argument.

 

Rockers >>> Hart Foundation

 

90s Shawn > 90s Bret

 

Then Shawn has the entire post-comeback run to bolster his case. This is just silly.

[Tim Cooke]

With Santo falling at 29, I'm not sure Casas will make top 15, which I would have expected a few days ago.

[Jimmy Redman]

 

 

 

Haha I can't wait for this shit now. Bring it on.

 

Now that Cena is out I'm numb. Nothing can hurt me.

What about now?

 

 

I have no problem with Santo over Cena. I had Santo pretty high.

 

Like I said I have more problem with a guy like Austin over Cena, because they are a like for like comparison and Cena is better.

 

EDIT: Bret too. Fuck that off.

 

You put Austin really high. You must have.

 

 

I did, clearly. And clearly lots of other people must have as well, because he's another guy who didn't come off like he was getting a tonne of support from the threads and the process.

[Grimmas]

I cant believe Bret is going to finish higher than Shawn. Bullshit. I cant wrap my head around a Bret is better than Shawn argument.

 

Rockers >>> Hart Foundation

 

90s Shawn > 90s Bret

 

Then Shawn has the entire post-comeback run to bolster his case. This is just silly.

I feel the opposite. Shawn is not in Bret's league.

 

I'll give you Rockers over Hart Foundation though, easily.

 

The entire post-comeback does not bolster his case though, it's the opposite.

[El Boricua]

With Santo falling at 29, I'm not sure Casas will make top 15, which I would have expected a few days ago.

 

I'm fearful he'll drop today the way things have been going.

[Matt D]

I have a hard time figuring who'll come next at this point. Eaton has to drop soon. How high can Regal get?

[Dylan Waco]

I find that all women in Joshi are often grouped together and accused of the same sins in a way that doesn't seem fair. When I think of bloated matches, I definitely don't think of the common 10-minute specials in ARSION and JWP. When I think of wrestlers who don't sell well, I don't think of Akira Hokuto. When I think of wrestlers who work too fast a pace to allow everything to have meaning, I don't think of Megumi Kudo. When I think of wrestlers who work a go-go-go style, I don't think of Mariko Yoshida. When I think of veterans who overreach, I don't think of Devil Masami.

 

In other words, it feels like Manami Toyota is being used as the barometer for Joshi, which I understand since she's part of the majority of the classically pimped matches. But I wouldn't call her the best representative of the style by any means. Not everyone worked like her, which is why she got over. Stuff was praised at the time because she was such a phenomenal athlete and it was something very different from the norm. Wrestlers who worked more traditionally didn't get as much love from Westerners because we already had plenty of that stuff for free on WCW TV or wherever.

 

I love Toyota. She was an acquired taste for sure, but I do. Still, I respected her much more -- and enjoyed women's wrestling from Japan way more -- when I began to treat her as the anomaly she was.

 

After having watched hundreds of Joshi matches in the final weeks before the poll I just can't agree with this even though I really want to.

 

Do I believe that people (perhaps myself included) oversimplify Joshi and other styles at our worst? Almost certainly yes. That said the criticisms I have pointed to about Joshi as a style are criticisms that could apply to Nagayo and Jaguar before Toyota was even on the scene. That she was the absolute worst expression of those habits and flaws I won't argue, but she was in no way the first, nor was she an anomaly.

 

Going through the footage I discovered that I much prefer almost all of the Joshi workers as tag wrestlers. I've thought a lot about why that was the case, and the best I can come up with is that it seems to have forced their hand a bit more on selling, and made the "go-go" elements a bit less eye roll-y to me.

 

In any event there are certainly people who understood build (Kudo) and could sell there ass off (Hokuto), but part of what makes them stand out is that they are exceptional. If the idea is that the discussion of Joshi as a style is too absolute in its criticisms I suppose I could buy it, but if the discussion is that there aren't consistent and unique trends within the style that many people will find problematic I think it's way off base

[goc]

Eaton is feeling really over rated at this point especially when you consider how long ago his tag partners dropped. I can't really see an argument for him over Santo.

[Matt D]

 

I find that all women in Joshi are often grouped together and accused of the same sins in a way that doesn't seem fair. When I think of bloated matches, I definitely don't think of the common 10-minute specials in ARSION and JWP. When I think of wrestlers who don't sell well, I don't think of Akira Hokuto. When I think of wrestlers who work too fast a pace to allow everything to have meaning, I don't think of Megumi Kudo. When I think of wrestlers who work a go-go-go style, I don't think of Mariko Yoshida. When I think of veterans who overreach, I don't think of Devil Masami.

 

In other words, it feels like Manami Toyota is being used as the barometer for Joshi, which I understand since she's part of the majority of the classically pimped matches. But I wouldn't call her the best representative of the style by any means. Not everyone worked like her, which is why she got over. Stuff was praised at the time because she was such a phenomenal athlete and it was something very different from the norm. Wrestlers who worked more traditionally didn't get as much love from Westerners because we already had plenty of that stuff for free on WCW TV or wherever.

 

I love Toyota. She was an acquired taste for sure, but I do. Still, I respected her much more -- and enjoyed women's wrestling from Japan way more -- when I began to treat her as the anomaly she was.

 

After having watched hundreds of Joshi matches in the final weeks before the poll I just can't agree with this even though I really want to.

 

Do I believe that people (perhaps myself included) oversimplify Joshi and other styles at our worst? Almost certainly yes. That said the criticisms I have pointed to about Joshi as a style are criticisms that could apply to Nagayo and Jaguar before Toyota was even on the scene. That she was the absolute worst expression of those habits and flaws I won't argue, but she was in no way the first, nor was she an anomaly.

 

Going through the footage I discovered that I much prefer almost all of the Joshi workers as tag wrestlers. I've thought a lot about why that was the case, and the best I can come up with is that it seems to have forced their hand a bit more on selling, and made the "go-go" elements a bit less eye roll-y to me.

 

In any event there are certainly people who understood build (Kudo) and could sell there ass off (Hokuto), but part of what makes them stand out is that they are exceptional. If the idea is that the discussion of Joshi as a style is too absolute in its criticisms I suppose I could buy it, but if the discussion is that there aren't consistent and unique trends within the style that many people will find problematic I think it's way off base

 

Tag matches in general allow for an "out" when it comes to kick outs, that being the interference pin break-up. (As an aside, 2/3 falls tags are even better because it allows for a big finishing move or two in the middle without completely destroying the pacing. Most indy tags now seem to want to have those without the pin/transition of a fall break).

[El-P]

John Cena, one of the greatest wrestler ever if you like shaky execution, soft looking spots, robotic moves, entirely pre-planned epics, trading and kicking out of finishers, five-knucle shuffles and a babyface who does schoolyard jokes and never cares when he's losing a title.

 

That being said, I loved the way he dealt with hostile crowds and his ridiculous entrances at Mania. I feel Cena is a guy who's been both helped a lot by working in the modern era (production, über-push) but also hurt quite a bit by it (would probably had been much more fun if he had been allowed more freedom, as he had *it* anyway and really good instinct it seems).

 

No idea if he'd make my top 200, as I really dislike the 00's WWE style, and he's the absolute ace at this style, for better or worse.

 

(Cena probably comes off a lot worse than I wanted him to, I enjoy him more than it would seem)

[Dylan Waco]

"Watch every match from 1979-1982" is not bad advice necessarily, but what do you say to the fan on the go? Helping them prioritize among what's there during that time would probably be useful.

 

What I say is that you probably won't get it.

 

Obviously we have a testimonial in this thread that seems to go against that, but I can't even imagine getting Buddy without an analysis of the week-to-week. The context of Portland wrestling is central to his case.

[Matt D]

You'll still get something great, don't get me wrong, but not something uniquely great.

[ElHijodeGorgeousGeorge]

THE HEARTBREAK KID SHAWN MICHAELS!

THE SHOWSTOPPA!

THE MAIN EVENT!

THE ICON!

 

Bahahaha well there you go. At least Gorgeous Georgito and a lot of other people aren't totally insane. I

 

Is Shawn the lowest ranked guy with 2 #1 votes?

Amen! Just like your quote said in the reveal thread, he just holds up for me. I've been critical of him just like anyone else but he just fits my mold for a pro wrestler.

[Timbo Slice]

Santo got jobbed. I had Casas over him too (by one spot), but him not being in the Top 25 is just bewildering to me. He barely made tape in the time since the 2006 poll yet when he did, it was still tremendous. I understand a lot of the guys Lucha fans found were new and exciting, but that's one hell of a pendulum swing. My own fault for getting into Lucha too late in the project to see for myself, but even if Santo's greatest hits are a few years older, I'm not sure that makes them less great.

[JKWebb]

I cant believe Bret is going to finish higher than Shawn. Bullshit. I cant wrap my head around a Bret is better than Shawn argument.

 

Rockers >>> Hart Foundation

 

90s Shawn > 90s Bret

 

Then Shawn has the entire post-comeback run to bolster his case. This is just silly.

I agree with you, although I had them fairly close to each other. Shawn was a better tag worker (Rockers), Heel (DX), and babyface (just using 2008 as an example). I don't know if it's a fair comparison or not, but I'd rate Shawn's post-comeback over what we got out of the short-lived Bret in WCW era. Don't get me wrong, I think Bret was great, but I ranked Shawn higher.

[Dylan Waco]

I was hoping Santo would make the top 25, but I doubted he'd rate much higher. For that reason I look at him at 29 and say "that sucks, but it's not brutal." I'd be a bit surprised if Casas didn't make the top 20, but anything is possible. Unfortunately lucha will always be undersold on collective projects like this.

 

Happy Cena did as well as he did, but I really can't buy the idea of Austin or Bret ahead of him. Austin I sort of convinced myself I had to include at the last second. At least he rated above Shawn.

 

I won't let the Bret thing go, because the more I have thought about his career over the course of this, the more I feel that I could have left him off without any regret. At this point I figure he'll make the top 25, which I can't defend in any way. I'd have to think about it, but with a team of 151 voters, I might be able to convince myself Bret is the most overrated wrestler in history at this point. That I contributed to that irks me and I wouldn't do it again.

 

Even though I didn't vote for him I find Shawn more defensible than Bret at this level because if you love his post-comeback stuff he really thickens out his resume. That said I do find something amusing about the fact that many of the people likely to criticize Shawn this high all voted for him (like me with Bret ).

[GOTNW]

I kind of fucked Santo over, I watched most of his 96/97 rudo run after the deadline and...........yeah. I had him 17 when he should have been 11. Oh well. You live and learn.

[cubbymark]

Santo got jobbed. I had Casas over him too (by one spot), but him not being in the Top 25 is just bewildering to me. He barely made tape in the time since the 2006 poll yet when he did, it was still tremendous. I understand a lot of the guys Lucha fans found were new and exciting, but that's one hell of a pendulum swing. My own fault for getting into Lucha too late in the project to see for myself, but even if Santo's greatest hits are a few years older, I'm not sure that makes them less great.

The one issue I have with this is the sheer volume of Negro Casas we now have post 2006 @s CMLL has joined us in the 21st century with all the live streaming they do. It's to the point you can watch Negro do his thing in Puebla as it happens if you really want to. And during this period of time when most guys decline, it seems Negro is at his prime, taking crazy ass bumps that his nephews Tiger and Puma wouldn't take.

[WingedEagle]

Bret and Austin are indeed 2 names I'd bump lower from original list. Just really short runs when you look at it, in Hart's case especially if you're giving little or no credit for the Foundation, while Austin was really the biggest star on TV for a few years, but even a long part of that time was spent avoiding putting him in matches. Just incredibly thin.

 

But hey, I can always revise my own list and its fun to think about things in another context after the fact, even this quickly.

[Loss]

 

I find that all women in Joshi are often grouped together and accused of the same sins in a way that doesn't seem fair. When I think of bloated matches, I definitely don't think of the common 10-minute specials in ARSION and JWP. When I think of wrestlers who don't sell well, I don't think of Akira Hokuto. When I think of wrestlers who work too fast a pace to allow everything to have meaning, I don't think of Megumi Kudo. When I think of wrestlers who work a go-go-go style, I don't think of Mariko Yoshida. When I think of veterans who overreach, I don't think of Devil Masami.

 

In other words, it feels like Manami Toyota is being used as the barometer for Joshi, which I understand since she's part of the majority of the classically pimped matches. But I wouldn't call her the best representative of the style by any means. Not everyone worked like her, which is why she got over. Stuff was praised at the time because she was such a phenomenal athlete and it was something very different from the norm. Wrestlers who worked more traditionally didn't get as much love from Westerners because we already had plenty of that stuff for free on WCW TV or wherever.

 

I love Toyota. She was an acquired taste for sure, but I do. Still, I respected her much more -- and enjoyed women's wrestling from Japan way more -- when I began to treat her as the anomaly she was.

 

After having watched hundreds of Joshi matches in the final weeks before the poll I just can't agree with this even though I really want to.

 

Do I believe that people (perhaps myself included) oversimplify Joshi and other styles at our worst? Almost certainly yes. That said the criticisms I have pointed to about Joshi as a style are criticisms that could apply to Nagayo and Jaguar before Toyota was even on the scene. That she was the absolute worst expression of those habits and flaws I won't argue, but she was in no way the first, nor was she an anomaly.

 

Going through the footage I discovered that I much prefer almost all of the Joshi workers as tag wrestlers. I've thought a lot about why that was the case, and the best I can come up with is that it seems to have forced their hand a bit more on selling, and made the "go-go" elements a bit less eye roll-y to me.

 

In any event there are certainly people who understood build (Kudo) and could sell there ass off (Hokuto), but part of what makes them stand out is that they are exceptional. If the idea is that the discussion of Joshi as a style is too absolute in its criticisms I suppose I could buy it, but if the discussion is that there aren't consistent and unique trends within the style that many people will find problematic I think it's way off base

 

 

The idea is more the former than the latter, that discussion of Joshi of a style is too absolute in its criticisms. There are definitely house style things that people would find problematic, but even then, I would argue that those things are often limited more to AJW specifically than all of Joshi. In fairness, I should point out that AJW was for all intents and purposes "all of Joshi" until the late 80s and was still the lion's share of it through the 90s. But I do think people who find aspects of the AJW working style grating would really enjoy JWP, GAEA, ARSION, Oz Academy and possibly NEO, Jd' and LLPW too.

 

The points on Jaguar and Chigusa are worth exploring more, and I'm not sure I can fully do that justice here. What I think is a great example of an unapologetically Joshi match is Yoshiko Tamura vs Toshie Uematsu from GAEA in 1997. It's a phenomenal match, and there is nothing at all about it that feels like an outlier to the popular Toyota-led style of the time, but it also feels a bit more grounded. I haven't talked about that much in the context of GWE because it really is a one-off match and neither wrestler has much of a case outside of it. But I mention it because I'd be curious how that match looks side-by-side next to the Jaguar and Chigusa stuff from the 80s. To me, that's the match to watch and say, "Ok, if you don't like this match, then yeah, I guess Joshi just isn't for you", because it has all of the house idiosyncrasies but as a match, the only real critiques I could imagine for it would be rooted in style more than layout or execution.

[Loss]

Santo in this spot may be frustrating for the purists among us, but as someone who seems to be seeing the glass as very much half full on these rankings, I'll just point out that he's directly above John Cena and Shawn Michaels. And that would be my stock reply to every single complaint about where he landed.

[The Russian Daydream]

I don't mean to sound smart or start an argument by saying this, but why is it unacceptable to believe that a good proportion of the greatest wrestlers ever are 'mainstream' guys?

 

Is it not plausible that many great wrestlers became mainstream guys because they were great wrestlers? Surely most wrestlers who are/were great get noticed, gain higher profiles and therefore become 'mainstream'.

[goodhelmet]

Eaton is feeling really over rated at this point especially when you consider how long ago his tag partners dropped. I can't really see an argument for him over Santo.

 

There isn't much of an argument for more than a handful of wrestlers over Santo. He is my highest guy to drop at #5. With that siad, at this point, I voted for everybody left so how mad can i be at where somebody places?

[Matt D]

Santo in this spot may be frustrating for the purists among us, but as someone who seems to be seeing the glass as very much half full on these rankings, I'll just point out that he's directly above John Cena and Shawn Michaels. And that would be my stock reply to every single complaint about where he landed.

I kind of like Santo here, and I had him in my teens. He's one of those pesky "emotional" workers.

[El-P]

What I think is a great example of an unapologetically Joshi match is Yoshiko Tamura vs Toshie Uematsu from GAEA in 1997. It's a phenomenal match, and there is nothing at all about it that feels like an outlier to the popular Toyota-led style of the time, but it also feels a bit more grounded. I haven't talked about that much in the context of GWE because it really is a one-off match and neither wrestler has much of a case outside of it.

 

Back in the early 00's, people following NEO would argue that Yoshiko Tamura was one of the best active worker. I wonder what I'd think of this if I revisited that dark period of joshi. I loved The Bloody too. Greatest worker no one knows about (that being said, I have no idea what I'd think about her today).