Reactions to the List: 25-11

[NotJayTabb]

Man, last time I posted in the reaction thread, I was so smug about none of my top 10 dropping, then in two days I lose Santo, Regal, Savage, Casas and Fujinami. Top 4 still intact for now though.

 

I also want to agree with Jimmy Redman's post. I'm a relative newcomer to the board, only being active since July, but I've gained so much from this process. Since I started watching footage for this project last February (it took a long time for my account to be activated, but I started watching from the day I registered), I've discovered guys I'd never seen before. Guys like La Fiera, Yoshinari Ogawa and Steve Veidor were barely on my radar 12 months, and they all comfortably made my list. Heck, I was the Steve Veidor high voter. In the process, I've also been reconsidering guys I've loved for ages and weighing up their cases. I remembered how much I loved M-Pro guys like Togo, Delfin and Sasuke (who all made my list), I wrote a long blog post looking at matches the Barbarian had in Japan and even if I know I'm going to probably have to defend my #1 pick in a few days (spoiler - it's Bret), I learnt so much from the GWE, and most importantly, enjoyed it every step of the way

 

(If I have one regret, it's not sneaking a vote in for Rampage Brown at 99. I probably do like him more than Alex Shelley in hindsight. Plus, I'd have a badass avatar)

[GOTNW]

I don't think GOTNW was really being malicious in asking for a "PWO-only" list, I'm sure a lot of people would be curious as to what it looks like, but still it creates an uncomfortable notion that we need to cull a certain amount of voters who vote for unfashionable choices until we can get to a "correct" list that falls in line with your own ideas. You're never going to get there. I'm a PWO regular and I voted Shawn Michaels and Steve Austin much higher than any luchadors. Some PWO regulars didn't vote for any lucha. Some didn't vote for any Japanese guys or Flair! You'll never get to a perfect consensus list until you whittle it down to a sample size of one

I think at minimum something like 85% of the ballots were from people with PWO accounts and if you add in everyone who registered after the voting it's closer to 95%. I never asked for "PWO-only" results. What I said was that we had enough ballots from people who obviously did engage in the process or just watched a shitload of wrestling for its own sake that the gaps each one us has could've cancelled each other out if the priorities of the process were different.

[ragemaster]

 

 

 

I'm not saying I didn't enjoy him in those matches, he played his part well.

But the workers were working around him, if that makes sense, anyone could of been put in that spot.

 

The only wrestler's he reminds me off are Baba at the end of his career, and unfortunately Khail.

 

But I didn't want to use Baba as a comparison as the matches I've seen of baba in his prime, blow's away Akira as a worker.

Watch his match with Kawada at CC 1995 and see if you think Khali could have done that.

 

Yeah, that. Or the Misawa match. Or any of the tags he was in. Or like, the fucking Marufuji match.

 

Taue was awesome and there's no way you could plug a random stiff like the Great fucking Khali into that scene and get the same result. That is utter, utter nonsense. Taue was fucking great and actively contributing to those matches as much as any of them. But because he's awkward and looks like Giant Baba, he gets no credit for it. Total bullshit.

 

 

I wouldn't say Taue gets no credit, but I would say that it takes time to appreciate how good he is. With fans like ragemaster, maybe he doesn't appreciate all the differences between the Mainstream American and King's Road Style, or more likely - perhaps he has not seen all of Taue's body of work. If you don't care for a guy's performance in a Tag Match, you're not likely to seek out his work in a singles match, and in Taue's case, you probably should.

 

When I first saw a match featuring "The Four Pillars of Heaven" at first look I thought Kobashi was the biggest star, simply because I was used to watching North American wrestling and Kobashi's style was more what I was used to, with the dramatic behavior. Secondly I was impressed with Kawada, who to me exuded bad-assery. Then Misawa, I saw that he had the skills (and then some) but at first I was taken aback by his stoicism at times. And originally yes, I didn't "get" Taue at all, I thought he was the weak link and wasn't ass good as the other three guys.

 

Now, I rate the four totally different.

 

In my opinion the problem is that a lot of fans read the names Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi and Taue and just look up one of their Tag Matches on YouTube, watch it, and then make snap judgements. That was the mistake I made - although I didn't use YouTube, I did just kind of jump into the King's Road stuff. It wasn't until later I understood that going straight to watching the Tag Final on 12/06/96 was kind of like watching only the scene in the Italian Restaurant where Michael shoots everybody, but then claiming you watched The Godfather and don't see the big deal. Yeah, you saw a vital part, but not the whole picture.

 

I honestly think new fans need to start with the match where Misawa unmasked and moved forward using this list as a guideline, get into the awesome Jumbo and Company vs. Misawa and Company Tag Team matches and Six Man matches (during many of which, Taue was rocking his super-cool fro.) If they then work their way up into the eventual split of Misawa and Kawada and formation of The Holy Demon Army, by the time they get to some of Taue's "peak" performances in 1995, they can see a fuller picture of the important role he played in 90's AJPW.

 

And that's not even getting into some of the underrated stuff he ended up doing in NOAH.

 

Now having said all that, if you look at all the work Taue did through the 90's in AJPW and you still end up comparing him to The Great Khali? Then I submit you have the brain damage brought on by taking the marijuana pills.

 

 

I've been watching wrestling since about 1990, I started importing Ajpw tapes in about 94/95.

I'm not a new fan who just caught some random Japanese wrestling on YouTube.

 

I will start by saying that comparing him to Khail was just a little flippant.

This is what happens when your up at almost one in the morning trying to make a point.

 

Roman Reigns is probably a little bit better comparison, as he's someone who's been in lots of great 3 man tags and also has have really good single matches with the right opponent.

 

He probably will have a great match with AJ Styles on Sunday, but does that make him a great worker, or just someone who can be carried to a great match with the right person in the ring with him.

 

I think instead of telling me about all the great matches he had with Kawada or Misawa or even Marufuji.

Maybe point me to classic single matches he had with with someone like a Bart Gunn or Johnny Ace.

 

That's the true mark of a great wrestler, someone who can carry a lesser wrestler up to your level.

 

As I compared him to Khail, could he have a watchable match with him?

 

Shawn Michaels did on raw, (I know Shawn probably the worse wrestler I could use on this board to make a point)

 

I think its a little bit of the Mark Henry syndrome going on here with Taue.

 

People on this board like to pick a person who for years has a reputation and then make a case that they greater than people remembered or much worse and then everyone else jumps on and agrees.

 

Taue by no means is a bad wrestler but he's not a great wrestler, by any standard.

[ohtani's jacket]

Taue revisionism predates this board by a fair number of years. There may be posters here who came to Taue late and thought they'd split the atom, but there's nothing folks can possibly say about Taue that hasn't been said before. If someone had had a new idea about Taue during this project I would have spat on my drink and fallen ass over backward.

[Badlittlekitten]

 

Hashimoto (along with Satanico) is my favourite discovery coming out of this project. It was such a relief to come across a Japanese main eventer that made use of facial expressions, had genuine intensity, didn't stick rigidly to 'stoic'. At #15 he's my second highest Jap male.

Good luck getting any range beyond Tenryu's 'mildly disgruntled' face, Inoki's 'I've a big chin' face and Choshu's 'half a grin away from down syndrome' face.

So...social skills are not your thing, huh?

 

 

Oi, no need to get personal.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying I didn't enjoy him in those matches, he played his part well.

But the workers were working around him, if that makes sense, anyone could of been put in that spot.

 

The only wrestler's he reminds me off are Baba at the end of his career, and unfortunately Khail.

 

But I didn't want to use Baba as a comparison as the matches I've seen of baba in his prime, blow's away Akira as a worker.

Watch his match with Kawada at CC 1995 and see if you think Khali could have done that.

 

Yeah, that. Or the Misawa match. Or any of the tags he was in. Or like, the fucking Marufuji match.

 

Taue was awesome and there's no way you could plug a random stiff like the Great fucking Khali into that scene and get the same result. That is utter, utter nonsense. Taue was fucking great and actively contributing to those matches as much as any of them. But because he's awkward and looks like Giant Baba, he gets no credit for it. Total bullshit.

 

I wouldn't say Taue gets no credit, but I would say that it takes time to appreciate how good he is. With fans like ragemaster, maybe he doesn't appreciate all the differences between the Mainstream American and King's Road Style, or more likely - perhaps he has not seen all of Taue's body of work. If you don't care for a guy's performance in a Tag Match, you're not likely to seek out his work in a singles match, and in Taue's case, you probably should.

 

When I first saw a match featuring "The Four Pillars of Heaven" at first look I thought Kobashi was the biggest star, simply because I was used to watching North American wrestling and Kobashi's style was more what I was used to, with the dramatic behavior. Secondly I was impressed with Kawada, who to me exuded bad-assery. Then Misawa, I saw that he had the skills (and then some) but at first I was taken aback by his stoicism at times. And originally yes, I didn't "get" Taue at all, I thought he was the weak link and wasn't ass good as the other three guys.

 

Now, I rate the four totally different.

 

In my opinion the problem is that a lot of fans read the names Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi and Taue and just look up one of their Tag Matches on YouTube, watch it, and then make snap judgements. That was the mistake I made - although I didn't use YouTube, I did just kind of jump into the King's Road stuff. It wasn't until later I understood that going straight to watching the Tag Final on 12/06/96 was kind of like watching only the scene in the Italian Restaurant where Michael shoots everybody, but then claiming you watched The Godfather and don't see the big deal. Yeah, you saw a vital part, but not the whole picture.

 

I honestly think new fans need to start with the match where Misawa unmasked and moved forward using this list as a guideline, get into the awesome Jumbo and Company vs. Misawa and Company Tag Team matches and Six Man matches (during many of which, Taue was rocking his super-cool fro.) If they then work their way up into the eventual split of Misawa and Kawada and formation of The Holy Demon Army, by the time they get to some of Taue's "peak" performances in 1995, they can see a fuller picture of the important role he played in 90's AJPW.

 

And that's not even getting into some of the underrated stuff he ended up doing in NOAH.

 

Now having said all that, if you look at all the work Taue did through the 90's in AJPW and you still end up comparing him to The Great Khali? Then I submit you have the brain damage brought on by taking the marijuana pills.

 

I've been watching wrestling since about 1990, I started importing Ajpw tapes in about 94/95.

I'm not a new fan who just caught some random Japanese wrestling on YouTube.

 

I will start by saying that comparing him to Khail was just a little flippant.

This is what happens when your up at almost one in the morning trying to make a point.

 

Roman Reigns is probably a little bit better comparison, as he's someone who's been in lots of great 3 man tags and also has have really good single matches with the right opponent.

 

He probably will have a great match with AJ Styles on Sunday, but does that make him a great worker, or just someone who can be carried to a great match with the right person in the ring with him.

 

I think instead of telling me about all the great matches he had with Kawada or Misawa or even Marufuji.

Maybe point me to classic single matches he had with with someone like a Bart Gunn or Johnny Ace.

 

That's the true mark of a great wrestler, someone who can carry a lesser wrestler up to your level.

 

As I compared him to Khail, could he have a watchable match with him?

 

Shawn Michaels did on raw, (I know Shawn probably the worse wrestler I could use on this board to make a point)

 

I think its a little bit of the Mark Henry syndrome going on here with Taue.

 

People on this board like to pick a person who for years has a reputation and then make a case that they greater than people remembered or much worse and then everyone else jumps on and agrees.

 

Taue by no means is a bad wrestler but he's not a great wrestler, by any standard.

 

You come to PWO, diss Taue, Reigns, and Henry then put over HBK to rub it in? Talk about social skills! Jeez.

[Matt D]

Taue revisionism predates this board by a fair number of years. There may be posters here who came to Taue late and thought they'd split the atom, but there's nothing folks can possibly say about Taue that hasn't been said before. If someone had had a new idea about Taue during this project I would have spat on my drink and fallen ass over backward.

Should have we named the podcast Atom Splitters or Drink Spitters?

[ohtani's jacket]

Maybe the Ass Splitters, but that may require me to crawl back underground. I'm sorry, but Taue you're old hat. If somebody can pull a revisionist twist on Chief Jay Stringbow you'll step up and get my attention.

[Goodear]

Looking back on the threads about how people aren't doing their research or whatever, I have found personally that if I don't like a guy or style on a first or second watch, that I'm far less likely to continue to invest time in that direction. It feels as though at that point, I am working toward confirming a consensus rather than organically following a trail of stuff I actually enjoy. And this is not supposed to be work for me. I already have a job. And as such, I'm far more likely to not invest time in deep diving into joshi for instance when I watch a recommended match and don't enjoy it. You can look at this as lazy if you like, but I think it helps explain why people's lists may explore one niche or another but not all of them. The mainstream is going to be more prevalent simply because its the gateway 90% of the population took to get into the hobby. I don't see how we would get around that.

[Goodear]

Let me tell you about the relative greatness of Ivan Putski.

[Matt D]

I have to watch that Strongbow vs Fuji match or whatever. I promised at least one Titan. I really kind of like the 70s Fuji vs Morales match though, so how bad could it be?

[shoe]

Let me tell you about the relative greatness of Ivan Putski.

He had a great brawl with Larry Z once.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm sure if we apply auteur theory to Strongbow vs. Fuji everything will come up roses.

[Matt D]

 

Let me tell you about the relative greatness of Ivan Putski.

He had a great brawl with Larry Z once.

 

That's because Larry Z is a top 110 wrestler of all time. I have a list to prove it!

[Goodear]

The Ivan match with Billy Graham from Mystery Titans Theater was legitimately good. The slow pace accentuated the explosion of the Polish hammer while thy maintained a really great struggle over the holds as Graham sold like a mother and Putski ground his stuff in. It felt legitimate from inside the wrestling bubble were you can Irish whip people.

 

I'm starting to think Fuji was actually really good at his job. I'm interested in looking back at his career at some point.

 

 

 

 

How awesome is that in a thread of the top 25-11 workers of all time, we're talking about Putski, Strongbow and Mr. Fuji?

[ragemaster]

Taue revisionism predates this board by a fair number of years. There may be posters here who came to Taue late and thought they'd split the atom, but there's nothing folks can possibly say about Taue that hasn't been said before. If someone had had a new idea about Taue during this project I would have spat on my drink and fallen ass over backward.

 

My only issue is I guess I haven't seen a match where he's the man so to speak. If anyone can point me to a match where he's carrying a lesser opponent to a great match I may revise my view on him.

 

But after watching him for over 20 years I'm guess I'm stuck in my view of the guy.

 

If I'm being kind I say he over reached his body limitations wile working in one of the hardest styles of wrestling going.

[Ricky Jackson]

Maybe the Ass Splitters, but that may require me to crawl back underground. I'm sorry, but Taue you're old hat. If somebody can pull a revisionist twist on Chief Jay Stringbow you'll step up and get my attention.

On Titans we've discovered that the Strongbow brothers were actually a fairly decent tag team, at least against Saito and Fuji. That's kinda sorta a revisionist opinion of Jay.

 

And the world definitely needs more talk about Mr. Fuji

[ragemaster]

 

 

Hashimoto (along with Satanico) is my favourite discovery coming out of this project. It was such a relief to come across a Japanese main eventer that made use of facial expressions, had genuine intensity, didn't stick rigidly to 'stoic'. At #15 he's my second highest Jap male.

Good luck getting any range beyond Tenryu's 'mildly disgruntled' face, Inoki's 'I've a big chin' face and Choshu's 'half a grin away from down syndrome' face.

So...social skills are not your thing, huh?

 

 

Oi, no need to get personal.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying I didn't enjoy him in those matches, he played his part well.

But the workers were working around him, if that makes sense, anyone could of been put in that spot.

 

The only wrestler's he reminds me off are Baba at the end of his career, and unfortunately Khail.

 

But I didn't want to use Baba as a comparison as the matches I've seen of baba in his prime, blow's away Akira as a worker.

Watch his match with Kawada at CC 1995 and see if you think Khali could have done that.

 

Yeah, that. Or the Misawa match. Or any of the tags he was in. Or like, the fucking Marufuji match.

 

Taue was awesome and there's no way you could plug a random stiff like the Great fucking Khali into that scene and get the same result. That is utter, utter nonsense. Taue was fucking great and actively contributing to those matches as much as any of them. But because he's awkward and looks like Giant Baba, he gets no credit for it. Total bullshit.

 

I wouldn't say Taue gets no credit, but I would say that it takes time to appreciate how good he is. With fans like ragemaster, maybe he doesn't appreciate all the differences between the Mainstream American and King's Road Style, or more likely - perhaps he has not seen all of Taue's body of work. If you don't care for a guy's performance in a Tag Match, you're not likely to seek out his work in a singles match, and in Taue's case, you probably should.

 

When I first saw a match featuring "The Four Pillars of Heaven" at first look I thought Kobashi was the biggest star, simply because I was used to watching North American wrestling and Kobashi's style was more what I was used to, with the dramatic behavior. Secondly I was impressed with Kawada, who to me exuded bad-assery. Then Misawa, I saw that he had the skills (and then some) but at first I was taken aback by his stoicism at times. And originally yes, I didn't "get" Taue at all, I thought he was the weak link and wasn't ass good as the other three guys.

 

Now, I rate the four totally different.

 

In my opinion the problem is that a lot of fans read the names Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi and Taue and just look up one of their Tag Matches on YouTube, watch it, and then make snap judgements. That was the mistake I made - although I didn't use YouTube, I did just kind of jump into the King's Road stuff. It wasn't until later I understood that going straight to watching the Tag Final on 12/06/96 was kind of like watching only the scene in the Italian Restaurant where Michael shoots everybody, but then claiming you watched The Godfather and don't see the big deal. Yeah, you saw a vital part, but not the whole picture.

 

I honestly think new fans need to start with the match where Misawa unmasked and moved forward using this list as a guideline, get into the awesome Jumbo and Company vs. Misawa and Company Tag Team matches and Six Man matches (during many of which, Taue was rocking his super-cool fro.) If they then work their way up into the eventual split of Misawa and Kawada and formation of The Holy Demon Army, by the time they get to some of Taue's "peak" performances in 1995, they can see a fuller picture of the important role he played in 90's AJPW.

 

And that's not even getting into some of the underrated stuff he ended up doing in NOAH.

 

Now having said all that, if you look at all the work Taue did through the 90's in AJPW and you still end up comparing him to The Great Khali? Then I submit you have the brain damage brought on by taking the marijuana pills.

 

I've been watching wrestling since about 1990, I started importing Ajpw tapes in about 94/95.

I'm not a new fan who just caught some random Japanese wrestling on YouTube.

 

I will start by saying that comparing him to Khail was just a little flippant.

This is what happens when your up at almost one in the morning trying to make a point.

 

Roman Reigns is probably a little bit better comparison, as he's someone who's been in lots of great 3 man tags and also has have really good single matches with the right opponent.

 

He probably will have a great match with AJ Styles on Sunday, but does that make him a great worker, or just someone who can be carried to a great match with the right person in the ring with him.

 

I think instead of telling me about all the great matches he had with Kawada or Misawa or even Marufuji.

Maybe point me to classic single matches he had with with someone like a Bart Gunn or Johnny Ace.

 

That's the true mark of a great wrestler, someone who can carry a lesser wrestler up to your level.

 

As I compared him to Khail, could he have a watchable match with him?

 

Shawn Michaels did on raw, (I know Shawn probably the worse wrestler I could use on this board to make a point)

 

I think its a little bit of the Mark Henry syndrome going on here with Taue.

 

People on this board like to pick a person who for years has a reputation and then make a case that they greater than people remembered or much worse and then everyone else jumps on and agrees.

 

Taue by no means is a bad wrestler but he's not a great wrestler, by any standard.

 

You come to PWO, diss Taue, Reigns, and Henry then put over HBK to rub it in? Talk about social skills! Jeez.

 

 

Lol I did put a tongue out by my Michaels comment, as I new that would put this boards back up.

[KrisZ]

I totally agree with Dylan about the Lucha stuff but it doesn't surprise me as Lucha even with the most ardent of fans like myself and other WON HOF voters can't come to a consensus to get guys elected, I totally figured that in this project there would be a lot of disconnect among the Lucha "novices" or people that just didn't give a shit.

[Matt D]

That's a lot of #1 stumping for Bret.

[Goodear]

Finally people can stop whining about Bret.

 

And start whining about ... lets see. Terry Funk.

 

He's terrible!

 

Booo Terry Funk!

 

Booo!

[concrete1992]

Will start whining about the Funkster if he doesn't finish in the Top 10.

[Matt D]

(Eddy is still in play)

[Goodear]

Boo! Figure out if its Eddy or Eddie! Boo!

[Matt D]

Lee Casebolt is a scholar and gentleman. More later.

[JKWebb]

Bock is the smartest worker I've ever watched. Really wish he'd hit the top 10! I had him around 4 or 5, and wish I would have placed him higher.

 

Matt D nailed it.