Reactions to the List: 25-11

[KB8]

It's already been touched on as well, but people are naturally going to be less likely to harp on about the flaws of a guy/girl they're trying to "push" as a top tier candidate if that guy/girl is a relatively new discovery, never to have REALLY been pushed at that level in the past. Work on getting Buddy Rose or Satanico or even Bockwinkel the same exposure as Flair - if that's even possible - first, THEN break it down some more and scrutinize things (similar to what Matt did with Hansen, for example).

 

I'm guilty of only really highlighting the positives of my favourites as well, especially if they're fairly new to me. I wrote something in the threads for Tenryu and Jumbo, but I never said anything about Tenryu being a nondescript mat worker in the Tenryu thread. I did write about how I find a lot of pre-'89 Jumbo uninspiring in the Jumbo thread, though. Maybe it's because Tenryu is a real favourite of mine and Jumbo isn't, or maybe it's because Tenryu-as-GOAT-contender is a relatively new take on things that hasn't quite reached the point where people want to seriously pick it apart. Maybe we just haven't had the time to get bored of Tenryu yet. I'm not sure, but either way, if we do this again in ten years I hope we have 16 page threads for Buddy Rose and Nick Bockwinkel and Satanico and Casas with people going back and forth about how great or not great they truly were, because if that's the case then I would say the fans of those guys have succeeded in getting people to seriously consider them.

[Matt D]

I still think that Flair HAS benefited from the footage. Look, I don't remember what was out there in 2006, but being on the 80s sets against a lot of different opponents in a lot of different settings helped him. People being able to see things like the Koko match and the Sawyer match and the Colon match more easily, some of the garbage tapes tag work, for instance; I think all of that makes a difference, as does the sheer number of great matches that we know about rising. He still has his negative traits, absolutely, but I think it's easier to weigh the stages of his career more equally now, and to understand how and why those negative traits exist and, if not forgive them, to learn to cope with them to some degree.

 

As Parv's indicated at times, some of those potentially negative inputs could actually lead to a number of positive outcomes or opportunities, even.

 

(The Distance from Old Man Flair being right in our face as an active in-ring worker probably doesn't hurt, but it's not what I'd focus on first).

 

EDIT: Re: Hansen: I wish I could say that I'm a mastermind that really wanted to find a critique against him because no one was doing it, but that's not really how I operate. If it was, maybe Buddy would have done better, because I could have made a case that was more manipulative or cunning. With Hansen, a bunch of matches dropped. They were matches that on paper sounded really exciting to me (like Race/Bockwinkel vs Hansen/Brody, for instance, or hey, Bockwinkel/Hennig vs Hansen/Dibiase, or even Jumbo/Tenryu vs Hansen/Dibiase) and I became increasingly frustrated in watching them. What followed was me watching more and more and just trying to wrap my head on what the hell was happening and why it was happening and how that synced up with the rest of his work, things I liked and things I loved and things I hated. The criticisms came out of my earnest frustration, not out of me trying to poke holes in Stan. It took me months to really come up with a theory. It definitely wasn't me coming up with a theory and then trying to find evidence for it. I was just trying to understand.

[Loss]

That is in so many ways my point, and I agree that getting the name out there at first and doing more in-depth critique later has value. But again, I suspect most voters won't rank someone number one who is still in the first phase. They will rank them, just not at that level.

 

It's not bias toward wrestlers in a specific country or style. It's that.

[Dylan Waco]

One advantage Flair has is that the entire idea of what a great worker is is based on Flair. Matt has made this pout to me privately but he's dead right.

 

Again, I'll talk more about Flair when he drops, but this process has absolutely confirmed to me that Flair is an all time worker. That said it has also convinced me that there is no criteria I could ever see myself subscribing to that would make him my number 1.

[Matt D]

One advantage Flair has is that the entire idea of what a great worker is is based on Flair. Matt has made this pout to me privately but he's dead right.

 

 

I did try to go into a little more detail on the idea (and why it may have hurt Flair's ringwork) in the first half of the last pod I recorded with Stacey earlier this week. Ideally, we finish that up tomorrow and get it out to people at some point soon, but the hardest thing for me in the entire audio process was expressing justification when she called me on Flair being relatively high on my list when he's not a "Matt D" worker.

[Loss]

Flair has absolute built-in advantages I won't even pretend to deny. He is an institution.

 

To me, there are only a handful of wrestlers that have been vetted to the degree I was talking about at this point. I see that as cause for excitement about all that still lies ahead, not reason for defeat.

 

Those guys are Flair, Michaels, Bret, Jumbo and Kobashi. I feel like we are still in the formative stages for pretty much everyone else.

[concrete1992]

Flair has absolute built-in advantages I won't even pretend to deny. He is an institution.

 

To me, there are only a handful of wrestlers that have been vetted to the degree I was talking about at this point. I see that as cause for excitement about all that still lies ahead, not reason for defeat.

 

Those guys are Flair, Michaels, Bret, Jumbo and Kobashi. I feel like we are still in the formative stages for pretty much everyone else.

Partially why I hope we do some tinier projects so we can focus on particularly groups to try and tackle. Otherwise it seems like the usual suspects will draw the eyes, which is expected.

[El-P]

One advantage Flair has is that the entire idea of what a great worker is is based on Flair.

 

Great point.

[pol]

Flair has absolute built-in advantages I won't even pretend to deny. He is an institution.

 

To me, there are only a handful of wrestlers that have been vetted to the degree I was talking about at this point. I see that as cause for excitement about all that still lies ahead, not reason for defeat.

 

Those guys are Flair, Michaels, Bret, Jumbo and Kobashi. I feel like we are still in the formative stages for pretty much everyone else.

 

All consensus favorites in the wider wrestling world. As much as I'd love to see the Casases and Satanicos of the world given the same scrutiny, I'm not sure it will ever happen.

[fxnj]

The point that having a lot of people discussing somebody and pointing out their pros and cons kind of goes both ways. I am almost certain Kobashi is going to place behind Misawa and I think a large factor in that is Kobashi getting a lot more criticism for going overboard with the head drops even though such criticisms are just as valid when applied to Misawa. Hell, El-P actually got flak when he said he'd be counting it against Misawa for being the one to kill himself with wrestling like that. Would love to be proven wrong, though, that all the Kobashi criticism is just a sign of people being more engaged with his work.

[GOTNW]

Flair has absolute built-in advantages I won't even pretend to deny. He is an institution.

 

To me, there are only a handful of wrestlers that have been vetted to the degree I was talking about at this point. I see that as cause for excitement about all that still lies ahead, not reason for defeat.

 

Those guys are Flair, Michaels, Bret, Jumbo and Kobashi. I feel like we are still in the formative stages for pretty much everyone else.

Yeah, OJ has talked about this with Breaks, but it also happens when I bring in like, shitty Akiyama house show matches and no one responds. I would like to contribute to this, but I really don't see myself ever being that consistent in it. Doing what I have done for Hashimoto in his microscope thread where I've reviewed his entire Memphis stint and other 30+ matches of his is like, the amount I did for my #1. I mean I could (and will slowly, slowly) do more, but not I think it's important to note not everyone can practically execute this idealistic and holistic view, and having everyone contribute a little is much more likely to bring us to the final goal than having a few people do it by themself. But honestly I think there are pretty of other wrestlers where do have good enough grasp of their entire career that we could have the same arguments. We just might be, a, say, Fujiwara vs Kawada comparison thread away.

[overbooked]

It's a weird one, wrestling criticism. On the one hand, I remember contrary views against say, Jumbo, or Johnny Saint 15 years ago. This journey is nothing new. On the other hand, it is clear that more readily accessible footage has broadened discussions.

 

But I'm not sure we yet have the breadth and depth that wrestling criticism deserves yet, which makes exercises such as this so valuable.

 

This list will work best as a snapshot of wrestling fandom rather than any kind of impossible capital T Truth. But even then, it is only a snapshot of a certain bubble PWO lives within. You would have to be a certain kind of fan to even know the poll exists.

 

It has been funny listening to podcasters suggesting certain picks are "controversial" when most people don't care that much about other people's picks and other voters have been genuinely controversial, probably inadvertently. It seems like the list will offer next steps and the ballots will offer perspective.

 

This feels like the start of something, not the end. Seems like there could be a blueprint for wrestling discussion from this list.

[WingedEagle]

One advantage Flair has is that the entire idea of what a great worker is is based on Flair.

 

I think this is a great point, and am also interested in the notion that this may be a disadvantage for Flair as as it pertains to discussing rather than ranking workers.

[funkdoc]

i thought the Kobashi backlash wasn't so much about the head drops (since that would apply to all the pillars), but more about the later Chopbashi stuff and viewing his character work as hammy.

[El Dragon]

EDIT: Yay wrong thread!

[jdw]

Can't help but laugh every time I see jdw has the last post in a thread and it's him pointing out how he said something years before anyone else.

 

I wasn't the first to say Bryan was going in the HOF. My part in the prior discussions was simply trying to get across those that thought he wouldn't get voted in the obvious: dudes and dudettes who win multiple Worker of the Year Awards *all* go in. Which Dylan in those thread acknowledged was something that would get him in.

 

Some of those thread were before he got his big WWE push, so there were more people at the time who were on the fence about him going in just based on his work. But plenty of people thought he would make it given how HOF voting went in prior years.

[jdw]

 

Ric Flair has been -- by far -- the single most scrutinized and debated wrestler of the past 18 months at this board. He has gone through the critical ringer more than anyone. I said at the time that this bugged me, not because I think Flair is beyond reproach, but because I don't think the same level of scrutiny has been applied to anyone else. For whatever reason, most wrestlers -- Terry Funk, Stan Hansen, Negro Casas, Jerry Lawler, Yoshiaki Fujiwara, Genichiro Tenryu and Randy Savage, to name a few -- have generally been approached in their threads from a perspective of affirming their status, while Flair and Jumbo have not. Maybe that comes with the territory, but posts like yours suggest that it's more that the idea is to put anyone but those guys in a top spot and work backwards from there, and I have a real issue with that.

 

 

Flair was the once-and-future #1. Jumbo was the reigning #1. Of course they were going to be scrutinized and debated.

 

No one picks apart random wrestler #77, unless someone is trying to pimp him up and there's some resistance to it, as is the case with Dory or Backlund, etc.

 

If I were still a Flair Fan, I would be worried when people stopped giving a shit enough about Flair to scrutinize and debate him. He then slips into being Ty Cobb or Stan Musial, someone who is "yeah, sure... he's one of the best somewhere up there" rather than people doing the hardcore analysis they do on Ruth, Mays, Bonds, Wagner and digging deep into the Negro League players like we do with Lucha workers, and with even less to go by.

 

Honestly, there's nothing wrong with being Stan Musial. That might be some of the irony: the folks who are seen as hating on Flair don't really hate him. They just happen to think he's the Stan Musial of pro wrestling. Which hardcore sabermetric and historical baseball fans know is really, really, really great... off the charts great. If Flair is that, it's a fucking massive compliment.

 

But it's not really what Flair Fans aspire for the level of Flair to rise to. It would be flippant to say that they find it an insult that Flair is Musial, but... it's not wildly of base.

[jdw]

 

Lawler will be at #11 because he never worked All Japan.

Not sure if it ever made tape, but I thought he did do one tour.

 

 

His match from this card aired on Classics:

 

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=78501

 

If it appears on the original NTV broadcast, it was cut down so extreme that Dan didn't list it on his 1985 set and just had the double main event. This was in a stretch (mostly coving 1985) were G+ rolled out a few matches that didn't air on NTV originally, but must have been taped and left in the can.

 

I don't see his match from the only other TV taping he worked making original TV:

 

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=106153

 

Tigersawa vs Kobayashi and Tsuruta & Tenryu vs Choshu & Yatsu are the matches on his list, and given the time would have eaten up most of the show. If something was cut to air small bite, it would have been the semi rather than the Lawler match.

 

It would be an interesting story for why he did the tour. Tagged with Valiant in every match, Saito & Kahn were the only players of note they faced, and that was short. Was 1985 the year where Lawler thought he was going to get a cup of coffee with the NWA Title? Not sure why Baba would book him in that specific period, especially with Ishingundan just jumping and having a bloated roster.

[Loss]

Misawa isn't "random wrestler #77". Terry Funk isn't "random wrestler #77". Neither is Tenryu or Kawada. All of them are brought up as #1 contenders. I don't think the scrutiny for Flair should stop. I think it should be applied equally across the board.

[jdw]

One advantage Flair has is that the entire idea of what a great worker is is based on Flair. Matt has made this pout to me privately but he's dead right..

 

Good point.

[jdw]

Misawa isn't "random wrestler #77". Terry Funk isn't "random wrestler #77". Neither is Tenryu or Kawada. All of them are brought up as #1 contenders. I don't think the scrutiny for Flair should stop. I think it should be applied equally across the board.

 

Flair isn't some random Top 10 guys, Loss.

 

He's the dude who has been thought to be the GoaT for 30 years. Not "a" GoaT candidate - THE GOAT.

 

That an extremely small circle of goofy fans back in 2006 put Jumbo #1 and some other guys ahead of Flair didn't mean that the mass of hardcores didn't think he was the GoaT is we took a real accurate sampling around hardcore fandom. We were a niche within a niche of a niche.

 

So we've seen some in our niche trying to prop Flair back up towards #1, and churned out a lot of positive praise over the past decade (let's be honest - limiting this discussion to 18 months is missing 8.5 years of a regular ongoing conversation folks have had). Others in our niche didn't think he was, so pointed out why. Still others were fascinated by the concept that you can't possibly be critical of Flair without folks getting a bug up their ass about it, so hopped in to point out criticism of Flair. Not really trolling of Flair, but I'm sure folks would see it that way... just as Shawn Fans like Alverez thought anyone criticizing Shawn was a trolling asshole or just a dumb fuck who didn't get Shawn's greatness. I'm sure you recall those discussions.

 

Flair's not the only one who was propped up, but in the case of Lawler or Fujiwara or Tenryu, not one who doesn't think they're #1 really gives a shit enough about to spend time pointing out why they aren't. Why? Because Lawler and Tenryu and Fujiwara never have been #1 before. Flair was the GoaT for 20 years before the original GWE, and still was the GoaT despite 30-50 yahoos like us having a ballot where he wasn't it. Then because of those yahoos, Jumbo had the milestone around his neck this time around, and got taken to the woodshed by folks.

[jdw]

i thought the Kobashi backlash wasn't so much about the head drops (since that would apply to all the pillars), but more about the later Chopbashi stuff and viewing his character work as hammy.

 

Headroppy backlash has been going on since the end of the 90s, and the hammy character complaints go back even earlier.

 

Kobashi has proven to be more than a bit like Flair: the decade (or in Kobashi's case two decades) of criticism hasn't sunk him.

 

For anyone who thinks that criticism has had much impact on Flair or Kobashi, it's best for one to take a look at Toyota. She's gotten the criticism for as long as Kobashi, and far harder than Flair since she never has had the volume of supporters than Flair has. Well, at least not since the older joshi stronghold forums of the internet died. Over the past decade the criticism reached a tipping point, along with criticism of her entire genre with her as the post child of the criticism. There she is dropping from #29 to #85.

[The Thread Killer]

It would be an interesting story for why he did the tour. Tagged with Valiant in every match, Saito & Kahn were the only players of note they faced, and that was short. Was 1985 the year where Lawler thought he was going to get a cup of coffee with the NWA Title? Not sure why Baba would book him in that specific period, especially with Ishingundan just jumping and having a bloated roster.

Consider the source and take it with a grain of salt...but Dynamite Kid talks about Lawler being in Japan briefly in his book. He claims that Lawler was complaining that none of the guys he fought in Japan would sell for him the same way they did when he had fought them in Memphis (I believe he used Killer Khan as an example.) Billington also claims that Jimmy Valiant was working too light and being goofy, so the Japanese talent wouldn't sell for him either.

[Loss]

I believe he was in a program with Savage during this time, but he was out selling injuries after Savage went back heel in late '84/early '85. He was off TV for a few weeks early in the year. He did a storyline in Memphis in '85 where he promised to retire if he didn't win the NWA title. If it wasn't specifically planned, he at least lobbied for it, so maybe he toured AJ as some way to curry favor with Baba? Just speculation.

[jdw]

Yeah, that's the storyline I remember - win the title or retire.

 

I don't know if Jerry has talked about it in his book, but it's not the type of storyline you typically run to end up not getting the thing. I do recall they had the match in Memphis which Jerry didn't win. I seem to recall that the match with Lawler was right around the time the Flair & Andersons angle with Dusty happened to set up Starcade, and it's tough to have Flair do a quicky title changes right as you're playing into the biggest JCP show of all-time up to that point. Dave may have talked about it in the WON... in the back of my head there something that Jerry kind of got screwed or felt screwed.