Gymnastics in pro wrestling/the Ricochet-Ospreay/Vader drama

[Matt D]

I will admit I was pretty blown away at the athelticism in this match. Modern wrestling for the most part is hit or miss for me as I'm more of an 80's territory guy, but I can't nitpick this match. I showed the gifs to my 10 year old twins and one of them has been talking about that jumping ddt all weekend. He loved the moves. This match appeals to him and most younger people I would presume, it wasn't meant for us 40 yr and over fans IMO.

 

Will it hold up over time? Who knows. Maybe it will be the modern version of Tiger Mask and Dynamite and then maybe it will be known as just a Teddy Hart spotfest and will be forgotten about in a few months.

 

You have to remember that this is a place where some people are relatively low on Tiger Mask and Dynamite too (but that DO like Dynamite vs Fujinami, so it's not like it's a blind thing. It's MEASURED). There's a lot of consistency. There have also been a lot of words written explaining people's viewpoints. Twitter is probably not the best arena for this sort of discussion, but as I said, we've already had it here, a lot. It's not like Ricochet is going to read sixty pages of PWO threads to get up to speed so as to best understand people's POVs. I think Regal would be baffled by people not being high on Tiger Mask vs Dynamite to begin with, but I don't think most of the people who have been here for the last few years reading and participating in threads are baffled why some other people aren't high on those matches, even if they don't agree.

[Loss]

At its core, all of this is is a case of which people feel is more important -- selling and storytelling or action and innovation. There's rarely if ever innovation in storytelling or match structure. There's rarely innovation in character portrayal or innovation in selling. We don't see innovation in heeling or babyfacing, really. The innovation comes with moves and pacing. I think you can have both and I don't mean to create a binary, as I personally think there's lots of room for increasingly athletic and daredevil moves in wrestling if everything else is right. I think it's wrestlers themselves that created that binary.

 

I think about why I value what I value, and the reason I have those values is because I think it's fun to pretend that something so ridiculous is real. That contradiction of excess and devotion to an internal fake truth fascinates me, and for me, the more serious it is, the more fun it is. But if people feel insulted by such pretense now and it no longer works, maybe that's the case, but it's hard for me to see what is artful about wrestling without those elements. Wrestlers have known forever that people pop for action. I see the skill in executing a difficult move and making it look great, but not much more than that. It doesn't feel smart, especially when it shortens careers. It definitely doesn't challenge anything I thought I knew about wrestling.

 

I have no problem with aspects of wrestling changing over time. But when we move from Thing A leading to Thing B leading to Thing C in a match, and move toward Thing A happening, then another Thing A, then another Thing A, it loses me.

 

That's my big question. Why are the athletic advances in wrestling usually at the expense of psychology instead of being used to enhance it? And by "psychology", I don't mean matches making sense exclusively. The whole reason wrestlers cared about matches making sense for ages was because the idea was, 'if we do something that doesn't make sense, we lose the crowd.' I mean fans connecting to matches and caring about the winners and losers, and finding that connection more accessible because matches make sense.

 

I planned to watch Ricochet-Ospreay last night and didn't get to it, so I'm not even accusing that match specifically of this stuff. Just talking about what I see happening.

 

I don't know. Maybe a lot of this stuff needs to be reconsidered. The origins of psychology were that if people realize it's fake, people check out. I don't think that's true anymore, if in fact it ever was. So how do you work a match in a smart way where everyone is more hyper aware than ever not only that it's a show, but in the specifics of how it works? I'd like to think the current approach isn't the only way.

[C.S.]

Okay, I watched the full match...

 

I was critical of the gif but kept an open-mind while watching the actual match.

There are things I could nitpick, sure. (Some of the contact felt too "light," there was a bit of overselling at times, etc. I won't criticize Ospreay's weird-ass facials though. I think he's onto something there!) Overall though, it was a really cool match that made me interested in seeing more of Ospreay and Ricochet, so mission accomplished IMO!

[jcmmnx]

I don't get the big deal with this match. There's better matches in this style every other week on Lucha Underground. Is the athletic stuff in this match anymore impressive than Rey's mid 90's stuff or the Low Ki/ Amazing Red matrix stuff? I'm not seeing what the big deal is. Neville does just as must impressive stuff without exposing the business every other spot.

[C.S.]

Yeah, the "Match of the Year" or whatever type hype is way overblown, but I thought it was a fun match that made me want to see more of these guys - nothing more, nothing less.

[sek69]

I also think it's funny Vader of all people is taking it upon himself to tell the youngin's how to work. I love the guy, but "legit beat the shit out of your opponent" isn't the best working style either.

[jcmmnx]

I get that I do see the potential with Ospreay. After having seen so much of Ricochet's work as Prince Puma this match was a big letdown for me. I guess it's a great Michael Bay match if you're in the mood for that.

[Downend2005]

The counter wrestling in the gif is what it is, but it was the 'pause, look at each other, both run in opposite directions, backflip off the ropes into a standoff pose' that got to me more than anything.

[fxnj]

I also think it's funny Vader of all people is taking it upon himself to tell the youngin's how to work. I love the guy, but "legit beat the shit out of your opponent" isn't the best working style either.

That's probably why he doesn't care for it. If his vision of pro wrestling is beat the shit out of your opponents then it's no surprise that he has such negative reaction to something that looks more like a floor routine than a fight.

[sek69]

There was something on one of the recent daily WON updates where Ospreay already is having back issues which he said is causing one of his legs to go numb. That will probably curb his style more than any criticism ever will.

[GOTNW]

Time for him to learn how to stall and throw a punch. I wonder if Animal Hamaguchi ever stops by the dojo these days.

[joeg]

Personally Osprey and a bunch of these young indie guys remind me of a young AJ Styles, like before Styles learned how to work (ie WCW Thunder, NWA Wildside, early ROH, AJ Styles). He's always the most athletic guy on the card, does lots of cool athletic stuff, but has no idea of what he's doing. I see Osprey being really good as he reaches his late 20s early 30s. I think Osprey is just an example of a young guy who is always trying to get his shit in. That I think is the main problem, is that so many of these athletic indie guys are so young, so poorly trained, and inexperienced they don't understand the difference between getting heat and getting their moves in. The exceptions seem to be the guys who don't have springs for legs. Its like the South Park episode where Michael Bay is unable to articulate the difference between plot and special effects.

[shoe]

One thing to take away from this. The match has had a lot of people who's opinions people take pretty serious from Regal, to Brian James, and even Jim Ross has watched and commented on the match. Most of them have put over how athletic it was, and mentioned how much better it would have been if their was more selling involved. I guarantee someone like an impressionable youngster like Ospreay is going to listen to a Jim Ross type. It's only going to make him better. Will is developing. His selling has improved this year. It's still a flaw in his game, and now that his match has been critiqued hopefully he'll incorporate the suggestions in his wrestling.

[joeg]

Osprey is over 6'. I see him being very good some day.

 

Also I don't like the comparisons to TM vs DK. Those matches had heat, lots of heat. Kid went after TM with a broken bottle once! Another match was restarted multiple times. It wasn't just the athletic spots, there was legit, fan-stab-a-heel, white-heat to several of those matches.

[bradhindsight]

NJPW is showing this match for free on NJPWorld:

 

http://njpwworld.com/p/s_series_00392_6_08

[C.S.]

They've also posted it to YouTube:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TgbxaQcheQ

[Matt D]

Thanks, I'll get to it at some point. I have this Les Thorton match to watch.

[Laz]

Watched the match this morning. It wasn't anything great and I see a lot of the criticism (they should have gone from the count out tease into the finishing stretch IMO), but some of the anti-press I've seen has been laughable.

 

The sequence in the gif happens in the beginning of the match, right after Ricochet was taken aback by how much of the crowd was on Ospreay's side. He even throws little bits of heel tendencies in there, and the stereo flip taunt was the kicker.

 

There's a lot of fat that could've been trimmed, but to act like this is the nadir of pro wrestling is ridiculous. It's an alright match that served as a showcase for an up and coming star.

[Gutenberger]

I watched the match last night and have made a couple of observations.

 

First of all, man I have changed as a pro wrestling fan. 5 years ago this probably would've been the best thing ever for me and I wouldn't have stopped talking about it for days. Now I watched it and was pretty much glad it was over.

This was a pure showcase match, and fot that it probably is pretty good. Fantastic even, maybe. But only as that. There was ne real flow in this match, the heat segment was short and, at least to me, barely recognizable as such. The selling, or lack thereof, was awful. Sure I admire the athleticism but still... It all seemed set up. Like nothing happened organically, just spot after spot after spot without any story.

Best example was the bis slugging it out in the middle. I'm not a big fan of it in most cases, but can get into it if it fits to the match. When it happened in Zayn vs. Nakamura, and went on and on, it felt right and I popped and was on the edge of my seat. In this match? I was bored to hell by it, 'cause it didn't fit.

And the more the match progressed, the more I hoped one of these covers would end it, because I grew tired of all the spots.

Is this the downfall of pro wrestling? No. But ot me it isn't really a wrestling match per se, it's more a showcase of agility and athleticism, as I said. I think with a bit more groundwork and basics, this could have been really good, as a nmatch also. But like this, I watched it and am over it.

[soup23]

I found the match to be pretty amazing in spite of the ridiculous springboard sault spot and Ospreay's spot calling and overall demeanor. I went ****1/2 and thought it did a great job of mixing in story to dramatic athletic display on a fairly large scale level. One thing to take into account is that I don't like how Dave threw out the Steamboat/Flair argument as the ultimate strawman of why this shouldn't be lamented. Maybe these two guys will go onto to have prolific careers like Steamboat and Flair but i am really dubious. I already feel like the door is closing to a degree on Ricochet and see him capping out in the IC title level contender on WWE. Ospreay does have more of a chance and is really young but does have injuries and will have to keep reducing certain aspects of his game in order to survive. The matches he has had surrounding this one in the BOSJ have not been spectacular as it feels like he is clearly picking his spots to go all out on. The other thing with Ospreay is his overall demeanor. I listened to the VOW flagship show today discussing the match and they talked about how you want to cheer for Ospreay because he is a dweeb and overconfident that gets in over his head. It sounded like a description of 1996 Otani. But while I love the emoting Otani does in the latter half of the 90's despite the fact that he makes boneheaded decisions time and time again, it is a hindrance for Will. I never know if he is supposed to be brash, in over his head, or aw shucks. That character development is going to be crucial to his success long term because the athletic arsenal will no doubt deteriorate over time.

[NintendoLogic]

I had no expectations of liking this match, but "all the people bashing it were going off a handful of GIFs" seemed like a fair response to the criticism, so I decided to give it a watch. It was about what I expected. There was a fair amount of goofy bullshit, but at its core, it was worked like two guys trying to win a wrestling match. I wouldn't call it great or even particularly good, but it wasn't more business-exposing than any other junior spotathon.

 

Ospreay's mannerisms were way worse than the match itself. His facial expressions make Edge look like Mitsuharu Misawa, and his vocalizations would make 1995 Chris Jericho roll his eyes. At one point, he actually said "pip pip cheerio, motherfucker" while executing a phenomenal forearm. I literally almost turned the match off right there. Jesus Christ.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I fuckng love that at the end of the day, this is making both guys famous. No such thing as bad publicity.

[C.S.]

At one point, he actually said "pip pip cheerio, motherfucker" while executing a phenomenal forearm. I literally almost turned the match off right there. Jesus Christ.

I didn't catch that, but holy shit, that's hilarious.

 

Like I said, I think he's onto something with his weird, goofy-ass facials. What that "something" is, I don't know yet, but it's certainly memorable.

[Laz]

That "pip pip" bit could've worked if Ricochet had mocked him for being British.

[Jingus]

Watching the match right now: I don't see the problem. The gif'ed portion makes complete logical sense in context. Yeah, a few parts are overly cutesy and contrived; but like everyone else said, welcome to the past twenty years of cruiserweight wrestling. They're certainly showing a hell of a lot more fire and charisma than lots of movez-based spotfests ever do. There's a genuine sense of competition between the two of them. Incidents of no-selling are kept to a minimum. And they clearly had that crowd 100% in the palm of their hands at every moment. Of course there's flaws, Rick's hand strikes have always been his worst weakness and Ospreay needs to work on hiding his calls (but even that at least shows they didn't script the whole thing in the back), but this is a perfectly good match which clearly drew some money and isn't making any huge mistakes.