Strummer Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Charlotte winning is certainly questionable booking and I really like her Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 There were way too many table spots on this PPV. The fundamental absurdity of taking five minutes to set up a table when you can just pin someone is bad enough when it happens once, but it's even more egregious when it happens over and over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 wait till tomorrow night when all the good will and heat from that match is transferred to Foley and Stephanie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 just a quick glance online and people seemed pissed about the finish to the main. Can't say I blame them. Really don't get that finish. I guess the plan is to go from Charlotte to Bayley and to the traditional babyface chase Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerva Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Charlotte winning is certainly questionable booking and I really like her  Well if we are to believe certain people, the build is toward Charlotte vs Dana Brooke. So she has to get the title eventually. Now I would wish that the person to break the PPV streak would be Bayley but it wouldn't surprise if they save it for Dana.  The only problem with the finish is that we have been fed for years that some wild table/chair spot has to occur. Now maybe they were hoping that the table would break when Sasha was thrown on it like a rag doll. Personally seeing her land on those tables looking more painful than Rollins finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Just a few little things I really loved about that match:  - the sheer roughness with which Charlotte was working, earlier in Kevin Owens was doing all this stupid Jeff Hardy setting up chairs and table nonsense, but in the main they were fucking struggling over a table, and Charlotte used it to jab Sasha in the face. It just looked nasty, and not like *a spot* you know. - Later, Charlotte put Sasha on the table for something else, but it wasn't like set-up, he really fucking manhandled her and it was full of hate, and piss and vinegar. - Charlotte's character work throughout was brilliant. I mean it would have been good in the context of 1986 but this is 2016 when fans chant "fight forever" but she was having fucking none of it, she gave them no outs, no chance not to hate her. It was just very very good work. - Sasha for her part took some sick bumps, including the initial one on the table, and she sells death pretty well  However Charlotte felt like the easy MVP of this card in just about every way. Finish didn't bother me at all since they've killed the false finish fests, so one like that every now and then can't hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superstar Sleeze Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 There's bad acting and there's wrestling-caliber acting and below all of that there's whatever the fuck Perkins and Kendrick were doing there. I know! That was drizzling shits. As a lifelong wrestling and soap opera fan bad acting does not bother me, but I thiought that was atrocious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superstar Sleeze Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 I need to rewatch Charlotte/Sasha I think this one of those matches better seen on TV to get the details. Crowd heat was great. Rollins/Owens was the better live experience match. Wrestled bigger. Finish to women felt abrupt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragemaster Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 The match felt like a bit of a prick tease, they climbed up the cage at the beginning, only to climb down for the power bomb spot. They over played the stretcher tease, especially after they stopped the best of 7 series the month before to "protect" the wrestlers. Â I think it hurt the match, Sasha jumping off the stretcher and fighting to get back into the cage. She should of started to fight as soon as they attempted to put her on to the stretcher. Â With the hate they showed, its a shame they didn't allow them blood. As without a big bump at the end, it felt anticlimactic. Â If Sasha was covered in blood and if Charlotte had chucked her a couple more times onto the table. Then she had put her finisher on her, it would have made for a more dramatic end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016  Charlotte winning is certainly questionable booking and I really like her  Well if we are to believe certain people, the build is toward Charlotte vs Dana Brooke. So she has to get the title eventually. Now I would wish that the person to break the PPV streak would be Bayley but it wouldn't surprise if they save it for Dana.  The only problem with the finish is that we have been fed for years that some wild table/chair spot has to occur. Now maybe they were hoping that the table would break when Sasha was thrown on it like a rag doll. Personally seeing her land on those tables looking more painful than Rollins finish.   Yea, let's believe the ever reliable anonymous reports that went from being "WWE executives don't like Dana's look and her nickname backstage is Miss Piggy" to "Vince is in love with her and sees big money in her" I'm sure no one would make up a story to get clicks, especially not something as easy as "Vince likes person the smarks don't"  They are definitely setting up Bayley vs Charlotte which is the smart move. People have been complaining about Bayley's booking since she got called up well what better way to get her over as a babyface than have her go against the most over heel on the roster? It's WAY smarter than have her challenge Sasha Banks and get a split crowd or worse since Sasha has been around the main roster longer and is currently more over than Bayley.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donsem43 Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 The only real goal they have for the Raw women is to get Charlotte as many title wins as her dad, which she's on pace to do in another 3 years. Everything else takes a back seat to her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fando Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Closer was a great match that of course should've been the only cell match on the show. Sasha-Charlotte really made me forget all the forced TV confrontations they had to go through to build this for a few minutes but then all the shit with the stretcher still seemed to drag on too long and don't think the crowd ever bought it either and almost felt sorry for Sasha killing herself for the reactions she got. Not even from the big announce table bump. Not like the response for Seth-Owens. Â Doesn't really matter though because the History Was Made mantra will be repeated for as long as they stay on good terms with the company (No AJ Lee in the women's package before the match, unless I missed her), and that's what this really was about, and how it came off in the end with the finish, something the company just wanted to get out of the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Ridge Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Back from attending show live. Three HIAC matches was overkill. All the props to Sasha/Charlotte for main eventing the show and easily having the match that had the most personal involvement. Folks in attendance were standing for most of the earlier part of bout. Got to say even though it was obvious coming when Sasha got off the stretcher to continue match I felt quite emotional. I loved that. Finished just didn’t come off live though. Still this was the most deserving to be main event. Rest of show? I absolutely fucking hated it. Fuck those fans in attendance. Really horrible and shameful to be apart of that experience. Shitbags who think they are the reason people tune in. Who sat there like a pile of shit during most of the show but immediately decided to chant boring 15 seconds into the Cruiserweight title match. That really burned me on a lackluster show for them to take that opportunity there. Fuck WWE for booking the whole division to not even give it a chance. It is so frustrating to attend a live show these days or almost any sport in general. The people are just rotten. The fan base seems to want to get themselves over more than anything. Anyways good luck with Survivor Series with Lesnar/Goldberg. That got zero reaction from the live attendance when they showed both video packages. Toronto is going to shit all over that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 It drives me bonkers to see people congratulating the heels post-match all over social media. It's impossible to get real heat anymore because as soon as the match/event is over everyone is all like "QUEEN!" all over dumb ass social media. I'm a bitter, jaded old fan. I hate the crowd doing dueling chants. I hate the heels being funny & getting laughs. I hate the fans knowing it's all a work & these are just "entertainers" & thanking them for being entertaining. Â I'd give anything for a wrestler to show up that doesn't give a damn about PC, getting sued or trying to sell more goddamn shirts... but that'll never happen. Pro-wrestling has been changed forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jushin muta liger Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Just a few little things I really loved about that match:  - the sheer roughness with which Charlotte was working, earlier in Kevin Owens was doing all this stupid Jeff Hardy setting up chairs and table nonsense, but in the main they were fucking struggling over a table, and Charlotte used it to jab Sasha in the face. It just looked nasty, and not like *a spot* you know. - Later, Charlotte put Sasha on the table for something else, but it wasn't like set-up, he really fucking manhandled her and it was full of hate, and piss and vinegar. - Charlotte's character work throughout was brilliant. I mean it would have been good in the context of 1986 but this is 2016 when fans chant "fight forever" but she was having fucking none of it, she gave them no outs, no chance not to hate her. It was just very very good work. - Sasha for her part took some sick bumps, including the initial one on the table, and she sells death pretty well  However Charlotte felt like the easy MVP of this card in just about every way. Finish didn't bother me at all since they've killed the false finish fests, so one like that every now and then can't hurt. I agree with almost everything Parv said about this. It's horrible that the build of this wasn't good at all cause those two raised their games and put on a great main event. The finish shocked me but the psychology of back giving out made it acceptable. If two guys from the undercard had a match like that in the main event, they would automatically become top stars. However, I still feel like what I said in the WWE weekly thread a week or two ago hold true in that this match feels more like something WWE will use for PR for women in the company instead of actually making Sasha and Charlotte top stars in WWE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Sasha vs Charlotte felt like one of the 5-10 best matches in the history of the company to me on first watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WashingtonFB Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Sasha and Charlotte are really two the best female wrestlers the company has ever had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Sasha vs Charlotte felt like one of the 5-10 best matches in the history of the company to me on first watch. Â Just watched. Charlotte's commitment to her character is beautiful. Sasha's intensity was something else and there was such a sense of danger which had NOTHING to do with the cage, necessarily, and everything to do with the stakes and the setting. It's like the difference between knowing you're going to a movie theater to see a RomCom and going to see a Horror movie. Pratfalls in a RomCom are funny. You're in on the joke. If someone falls in a Horror movie, it's a lot more worrying. So there was a definite sense of mood to the match, which they more than earned. Â I had two major issues, one textual and one contextual. Â Contextual first. Even with Sasha's injury history, the actual spot where she gets hurt early on isn't enough to warrant what happens next, not in a company where someone goes through the announce table in bigger ways every main event. Maybe we're supposed to feel like it was a bigger deal because they were the females. We WERE supposed to feel like it was a bigger deal because Charlotte caught her off the cage first, but even symbolically that was a stretch. They still popped huge when she shot up and Sasha hitting the official really sold it, so I don't ultimately have a problem with how long they let it go with the stretcher, but the move itself wasn't believable to put her in that state. That's not necessarily the fault of the match in a vacuum, but this isn't' a vacuum. Â And yes, I would have liked just a little more back selling while on offense throughout the match from Sasha. She hit the three amigos and the announcers asked how she did it, and it would have been great if she indicated that there was anything wrong there. I buy adrenaline at the start of the match, during some comebacks, but it was a bit much since it was both the beginning and the finish. If something's going to be the finish it should be represented more in the middle as well. When her back gave out, I completely bought it, after the fact, a few seconds later, but not in the moment, because I had sort of forgotten that was an element of the match at that point. Â I have one other thing to say, relating to the danger of the match indicated up top and it has to do with Blade Runner Rock, but I'll get to that later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Matt, I thought the actual bump Sasha took on the injury spot was sick. I mean get what you're saying, but she took that in such a way that it did look like it could cause injury. Â I kind of agree with you on long-term selling, I also didn't think Bayley's was up to much earlier in the card, but I think Charlotte's performance and both of their overness was enough to mask some of the slight problems on Sasha's end. Â I mean this is one of those areas where I do think the crowd matters a bit. Real heat and overness can cover up some of the cracks sometimes I think. You might disagree, but I thought if nothing else the main event last night was proof that real commitment to face / heel dyanmics, and not breaking kayfabe (just within the body of the match itself), can still work as if it were 1986 even in today's jaded atmosphere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmostNinjaLike Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Man, maybe it was just that I was tired and in a shitty mood when I watched this, but this was "just" a really good match to me. Guess I should re-watch it now that I feel better, but I can't see how this is even top 50 in the company's history on first viewing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InYourCase Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 I'd give anything for a wrestler to show up that doesn't give a damn about PC, getting sued or trying to sell more goddamn shirts... but that'll never happen. Pro-wrestling has been changed forever. I'm not sure what being PC has to do with any of that, but sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Top 10 seems a bit like hyberbole, I'm not sure it would touch these: Â Sgt. Slaughter vs. Pat Patterson (5/4/81) Sgt. Slaughter vs. Iron Sheik (6/1/84) Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart (3/20/94) Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold Steve Austin (3/23/97) John Cena vs. Justin Bradshaw Layfield (5/22/05) John Cena vs. Umaga (01/28/07) John Cena vs Brock Lesnar (4/29/12) Roman Reigns vs. Brock Lesnar (3/29/15) Â Bob Backlund vs. Ken Patera (5/19/80) Bob Backlund vs. Greg Valentine (11/23/81) Ricky Steamboat vs. Randy Savage (3/29/87) Brock Lesnar vs. The Undertaker (10/20/02) Randy Orton vs. Mick Foley (4/18/04) Brock Lesnar vs. Roman Reigns vs. Dean Ambrose (2/21/16) Â You'd probably stick one of the Tito / Greg matches in there too and if you held a gun to my head probably also HBK / Razor from Mania X. Â I'd have it above Ted / Savage MSG though, which made my top 100 matches for the WTBBP special when we did it. Would also have it above Flair / Savage from Mania 8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Looking at that list, there seems a distinct lack of Eddie to me. I think a good comparison point for Charlotte / Sasha last night is Eddie Guerrero vs. Brock Lesnar (2/15/04). Â I had that at ****1/2 but high end for that rating, and I think the match last night is right around there. 4.5 knocking on the door of 4.75. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Matt, I thought the actual bump Sasha took on the injury spot was sick. I mean get what you're saying, but she took that in such a way that it did look like it could cause injury. Â Sure, but there's her landing that way on EVERY subsequent move. Like the monkey flip, or the suplex into the corner, creating some sense of diminishing return. Those bumps, all horribly nasty and contorted should have had an escalating effect. Instead, they all paled to what happened at the very start of the match. I'm not sure what sort of layout I would have liked more in that regard, maybe if the stoppage tease happened mid match instead? I think they were trying to copy the 98 match but that might not have been the best narrative choice for the entirety of the match even if ... Â I mean this is one of those areas where I do think the crowd matters a bit. Real heat and overness can cover up some of the cracks sometimes I think. You might disagree, but I thought if nothing else the main event last night was proof that real commitment to face / heel dyanmics, and not breaking kayfabe (just within the body of the match itself), can still work as if it were 1986 even in today's jaded atmosphere. Â ... the moment of Sasha getting up from the stretcher ultimately DID work because the crowd popped so big. As a moment, it worked BECAUSE of the crowd. Within the match as a whole it was a little wonky, maybe? Â Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmostNinjaLike Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Looking at that list, there seems a distinct lack of Eddie to me. I think a good comparison point for Charlotte / Sasha last night is Eddie Guerrero vs. Brock Lesnar (2/15/04). Â I had that at ****1/2 but high end for that rating, and I think the match last night is right around there. 4.5 knocking on the door of 4.75. Â As of right now I have it at 3 3/4 knocking on the door of 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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