Wrestle Kingdom 11

[stro]

When people talk about Omega/Okada being heated, are they talking about heat from the crowd, or heat from the performers? Because that heat wasn't there for me with the performers. It was there for Shibata/Goto and Tanahashi/Naito, but that could also be because both of those matches have pretty long established histories and backgrounds as opposed to a first time match up with Okada/Omega. I think that's an issue I've come to had with Okada, who is usually not very good at emoting during his matches and is often stoic to the point of seeming bored.

 

The Okada = Orton, Tanahashi = Cena talk seems just as accurate as ever, as despite a glut of fantastic matches over the past couple of years, Okada was gifted the rocket push and knows how to get every match he's in to 3-4 stars by hitting his spots and general technique, but he needs the right opponent to bump his matches to the next level. You can pretty much time Okada matches out to the minute. You'll know exactly when he's going to hit which moves, and how long his finishing sequences are going to go. It's especially glaring if you go to NJ World and watch all the IWGP matches from 2016 in succession. The match with Omega was different, but Elliot talked about how it seemed like the fans were quiet and just waiting for the next big spot instead of being interested in what was going on between the spots. Now you have Okada talking about how Okada vs Omega can reach out to international audiences more than Okada/Tanahashi could, and it goes back to my point about the entire thing feeling like it was catering to outside audiences in a bad way.

 

It's similar to when WWE picks someone from an area they're wanting to break into and makes sure they're all over TV even if they aren't ready or suck or aren't over. Everyone ends up resenting it. I wouldn't want something similar to happen to NJ when they're so hot.

[JerryvonKramer]

@ Matt D - Okay deal!

[InYourCase]

Case, did you think the main had more heat than Goto / Shibata? Just curious.

 

For my part, overall, I thought it was quite interesting to see four big matches all in a row and all worked quite differently.

 

I'm not sure that I could make any blanket statements about "the style" because I saw four different styles in four matches.

 

 

I don't even think it was close. Goto vs. Shibata was a great match and it had plenty of heat, but it's not even comparable to the reaction of the main event. What match were people watching? The last 20 minutes were deafening. Audience members were crying after the finish. They clung onto every nearfall. Get lost with that "it wasn't anything special" bullshit.

 

And thank you for saying that, Parv. Maybe not people will get a grip and realize that New Japan doesn't have "one style", and saying that they don't like "the New Japan style" is a ludicrous and uninformed argument because there is no specific style. The second half of modern New Japan cards are littered with different styles.

[Herodes]

Now if only people can stop applying the "one style" fallacy to Lucha...

[Grimmas]

 

And thank you for saying that, Parv. Maybe not people will get a grip and realize that New Japan doesn't have "one style", and saying that they don't like "the New Japan style" is a ludicrous and uninformed argument because there is no specific style. The second half of modern New Japan cards are littered with different styles.

 

NJPW sounds like lucha libre there.

[Tim Cooke]

Elliott

 

'There was lots of great stuff, but none of it really seemed to matter and that was reflective in the fact that the crowd response to the match. (Pausing momentum briefly, I see Dylan literally just made a post about the crowd. Damnit. I'll soldier through my point nonetheless). Other than the big holy shit spots, the crowd was pretty damn quiet for the first...like 35 minutes of the match. I'm not going to say they were shitting on the match because they were right there to pop big for every big spot. Before sitting back down to politely watch. They came alive and were nuts for the finishing stretch. But it didn't have that buzz you get from great crowds. Seems like a weird nitpick on the match granted, but for something getting "Greatest match of all time" praise I'd want the crowd to at least be able to match the sustained heat of something like Rock n Roll Express vs Dirty White Boys. :)'

 

Bingo

 

I'm not sure fans of only modern day wrestling understand what crowd heat is

[InYourCase]

I'm not sure fans of only modern day wrestling understand what crowd heat is

Heat evolves, just like everything else in wrestling. People have phones and tablets now - even in the biggest of big spots, some of them are going to be filming it, rather than living in it. I also just believe that people react differently. People evolve.

[pol]

It's not like you don't get modern matches with sustained heat though.

[Matt D]

 

 

I'm not sure fans of only modern day wrestling understand what crowd heat is

Heat evolves, just like everything else in wrestling. People have phones and tablets now - even in the biggest of big spots, some of them are going to be filming it, rather than living in it. I also just believe that people react differently. People evolve.

Or devolve.

[FMKK]

 

I'm not sure fans of only modern day wrestling understand what crowd heat is

 

Heat evolves, just like everything else in wrestling. People have phones and tablets now - even in the biggest of big spots, some of them are going to be filming it, rather than living in it. I also just believe that people react differently. People evolve.

That may be so but the Naito vs Tanahashi match just before had better sustained heat than the main.

[Tim Cooke]

 

I'm not sure fans of only modern day wrestling understand what crowd heat is

 

Heat evolves, just like everything else in wrestling. People have phones and tablets now - even in the biggest of big spots, some of them are going to be filming it, rather than living in it. I also just believe that people react differently. People evolve.

It's been decreasing steadily since the mid 90's. Just have to watch the matches to see that

[Phil Schneider]

When I said fundamentals I'm more referring to your typical "feeling out" process things. The things a lot of people view as inconsequential to a wrestling match. The chain wrestling, running the ropes, grabbing a headlock, etc. To me he has super unique movements and his personality shines through so much that even doing those little things I think he keeps it very engaging.

 

To answer your question of when he does a basic move, he goes for an elbow drop in the match, he misses, then Okada attempts a senton. The reason why I point that out is it isn't just an elbow drop, he does a Mutoh style elbow drop with the same snap and theatrics. Some may view it as cosplay but being able to imitate a Mutoh elbow so well when only Low Ki is the other one to be able to do so is impressive to me. He adds personality to what otherwise is a forgettable sequence.

 

Outside of this particular match, in the last two nights of the most recent G1, he started doing a regular neckbreaker. Again, pretty basic stuff, but the added twist is he's doing the Rick Rude hip swivel before he drops the dude down. The reason why that's impressive is that other than Omega himself, Rick Rude is one of only two other North Americans to make it to a G1 final so that's a neat little nod.

 

I thought both guys had shockingly bad basics. Omega looks great on big spots, but simple stuff like forearms, kicks to the stomach all looked pretty shitty. There was this one missed clothesline by Okada where he swung his arm way over Omega's head so Omega didn't even have to duck, shit like that wouldn't pass muster on a JAPW undercard, much less the dome show.

[rzombie1988]

 

 

I'm not sure fans of only modern day wrestling understand what crowd heat is

Heat evolves, just like everything else in wrestling. People have phones and tablets now - even in the biggest of big spots, some of them are going to be filming it, rather than living in it. I also just believe that people react differently. People evolve.

It's been decreasing steadily since the mid 90's. Just have to watch the matches to see that

 

Yeah, it's really hard to argue against that.

[W2BTD]

I'm not comfortable calling it the best match ever, but I will say this. They may have had the best possible example of what people consider the modern New Japan style main event. They worked the house style main event pattern in a way that broke the usual closing stretch rhythms, which took the match to new heights for people who enjoy that style. Your mileage will vary on how good the match was based on what you usually think of that style.

 

Omega is a deranged genius who pushes lines and is never scared. It doesn't always land. He's probably not the best wrestler in the world, but he's the most interesting.

[stro]

 

When I said fundamentals I'm more referring to your typical "feeling out" process things. The things a lot of people view as inconsequential to a wrestling match. The chain wrestling, running the ropes, grabbing a headlock, etc. To me he has super unique movements and his personality shines through so much that even doing those little things I think he keeps it very engaging.

 

To answer your question of when he does a basic move, he goes for an elbow drop in the match, he misses, then Okada attempts a senton. The reason why I point that out is it isn't just an elbow drop, he does a Mutoh style elbow drop with the same snap and theatrics. Some may view it as cosplay but being able to imitate a Mutoh elbow so well when only Low Ki is the other one to be able to do so is impressive to me. He adds personality to what otherwise is a forgettable sequence.

 

Outside of this particular match, in the last two nights of the most recent G1, he started doing a regular neckbreaker. Again, pretty basic stuff, but the added twist is he's doing the Rick Rude hip swivel before he drops the dude down. The reason why that's impressive is that other than Omega himself, Rick Rude is one of only two other North Americans to make it to a G1 final so that's a neat little nod.

 

I thought both guys had shockingly bad basics. Omega looks great on big spots, but simple stuff like forearms, kicks to the stomach all looked pretty shitty. There was this one missed clothesline by Okada where he swung his arm way over Omega's head so Omega didn't even have to duck, shit like that wouldn't pass muster on a JAPW undercard, much less the dome show.

 

This seems like an issue with a lot of guys that started in the 2000s have.

[Laz]

Okada/Omega gets ***1/2 from me if I'm being generous. The first portion of the match is all Omega working on Okada's back, then he switches to the neck, and he KILLS Okada with knees and bombs...only for Okada to shrug it off like nothing happened and get the win.

 

This is great wrestling in 2017?

[Childs]

 

Omega is a deranged genius who pushes lines and is never scared. It doesn't always land. He's probably not the best wrestler in the world, but he's the most interesting.

 

I don't understand why people apply these kinds of tags to Omega. He's a gifted athlete with an intense commitment to his craft and a specific charisma that really lands with some people. But I don't see him altering the form in any radical ways. I'm interested to read more detailed arguments along those lines.

[The Russian Daydream]

One thing I've said that would instantly help these workers is to sprinkle in some old basic spots into their movesets. Like a basic bodyslam, a basic stomp, etc.

 

They go from big spot to big spot.

 

If you watch 90s AJPW, Kawada knows when to sit in a chinlock sometimes. Kobashi is not above a simple slam or stomp.

 

These guys seem to make every single move something that requires a running start. They never just do a suplex, it's a suplex with a twist, it's a dragon suplex, it's a hurricanrana, it's a tornado DDT.

 

You can't really have escalation if your moveset is literally all finishers.

This is a really good point.

[elliott]

 

 

Omega is a deranged genius who pushes lines and is never scared. It doesn't always land. He's probably not the best wrestler in the world, but he's the most interesting.

 

I don't understand why people apply these kinds of tags to Omega. He's a gifted athlete with an intense commitment to his craft and a specific charisma that really lands with some people. But I don't see him altering the form in any radical ways. I'm interested to read more detailed arguments along those lines.

 

 

Totally agree with this. I mean, I don't even watch the promotion regularly and can't recall ever having seen Omega work before. But this was not even close to the experience I had seeing someone like Johnny Saint work for the first time that was so far removed from the wrestling I was familiar with that it was a pretty mindblowing moment. That was just a really long match with lots of nearfalls and counters. Are people really talking about it "altering the form?" It basically met my expectations in terms of how they were going to work the match. How is this guy different from Seth Rollins? He hits harder?

[Dylan Waco]

 

 

I'm not sure fans of only modern day wrestling understand what crowd heat is

Heat evolves, just like everything else in wrestling. People have phones and tablets now - even in the biggest of big spots, some of them are going to be filming it, rather than living in it. I also just believe that people react differently. People evolve.

The first 20 mins or so were the least heated moments of the 2nd half of the show. That was my point and it's one I really thought was obvious watching live (and something others were commenting on in real time).

[stro]

The best thing about Kenny is his complete lack of care for his physical well being. He's not doing anything to change wrestling like he claims, but he's willing to fling his body with reckless abandon to do what he thinks is changing it.

[Kevin Ridge]

I've seen very little of both guys and also the last few years of NJPW so I'm missing stuff like back story but had to check out main event when I heard about Meltzer's thoughts about it. I'm sure hearing about the praise going in effected my viewing as I sat there just waiting through the first 20 minutes or so to be wowed. Kenny at least was trying to work the back but Okada just seemed to not bring a hole lot early on. He did take some really nasty bumps though. I hope that top rope Dragon Suplex doesn't start popping up all over the place. That was nasty. Worse on replay. Corino's remark about future neck surgery really hit the mark for me. As was thinking the same damn thing. How he was really taking a risk to his long term health. It is a spot I just don't want to see and took me briefly away from trying to enjoy a match to where I'm thinking seriously about a guy's well being. Admit I did get back into for the finishing stretch and found myself rooting for Omega to win. Just wish they did more early on and added a few breathers in towards the end.

[elliott]

I'd be very interested to get Elliott's longer takes on Shibata / Goto, because that was the standout match for me. I've seen others talk up Tanahashi / Naito as the stand out match. I was persuaded to watch ALL FOUR of them by Chad, and I'm glad I did. I'd recommend Elliott and others do the same. It was rewarding overall, even though I had things I actively disliked about two of them.

 

I can't seem to find it online in the usual places at the moment. I'll keep looking and watch it when it pops up.

[Benbeeach]

I find much of the criticism and praise for this match both equally valid. I personally ended up loving it, if not as one cohesive 40 minute epic than as the sum of some really good/great parts. For all the flak it's catching online, I don't think anyone would argue it's abjectly BAD. Too much? Sure, but bad? Hardly

 

Like quinten said, and Dylan, the attachment to the wrestlers themselves I think can and does go a long way. I think Kenny gets judged on the same sort of scale that Zayn and Owens and a couple others of that indy generation past do, where their quirks get seen as weaknesses by some despite crowds and the majority of fans eating it up. The "why does it have to be a Muta elbow?" question I think you can always answer in a "why not?" Why did Muta's elbow have to be a muta elbow? It looks like it adds torque and hurts more and is visually cool to look at.

 

But beyond that, while I think the match is far from a one man show, and Okada did add that almost Cena-esque quality of making the stakes higher just by simply being there, this thing is all about Kenny. It is the culmination of his meteoric rise, from goofy junior to legitimate main event level superstar. To think the guy who was throwing hadokens (in and out of the ring), taking pile drivers from dolls and 9 year old girls, and wrestling in falls count anywhere matches on dirt mounds in the middle of nowhere, became the top gaijin not necessarily in spite of, but probably because of the fact that he is still that worker, still has that imagination, that zeal, that willingness to experiment, to give, to not be afraid to look stupid, to push, to think outside of the box. The table spot, which was built to beautifully, was the point where I said "oh okay, so he's legitimately willing to die for this. I'm all in" It was Misawa/Kobashi tiger suplex off the ramp levels of, different territory. (Top rope Dragon suplex aside, aren't there numerous instances of new seemingly would-be death finishers getting kicked out of on their debuts? Aj gave a top rope AA a sturdy two count. I can recall the ganso bomb getting kicked out of like 2 or 3 times. Did an apron version of a finisher ever finish a match in AJPW/NOAH? Its garrish, but it's also not some huge departure from the norm the last 25 years)

 

More is more, excess is excess, but like everyone said, I can't think of many other instances where I could recall seeing a workers entire lifes work manifest into one match. If a match is going to be damn near obscene in it's levels of decadence, then let it be in the legit biggest match of your life on the second biggest stage in all of wrestling. It was the most...and this is a your mileage may vary observation...shawn michaels esque performance I can recall seeing. But without the over the top look at me in total disregard of my opponent working for 2, feel that some of Michaels best performances can sometimes come with. Kenny just left it all out there, to cap what had been his career year. This felt alot more earnest, and far less insidious. And the crowd which I didn't think was quiet at all, ate it up. The first 20 minutes they weren't making the camera shake or anything but I don't think anyone in that stadium had been conditioned to believe that the main event of the tokyo dome was going to end via backslide 4 minutes in. Trapping of the style perhaps, but I'm not sure that's a fatal flaw. There's something to building the heat (in the cheapest most holy shit high spots way possible, but sometimes its about the destination, not the journey)

 

For all the things this match did in glut, I thought there were lots of little things it nailed too. A running top rope moonsault to the outside, is by no means a "little thing", but to make it look like it killed the guy taking it and not some pretty catch exercise is impressive. They still saved the one winged angel for what I assume is essentially kenny's crowning achievement. They made the crux of that avengers end battle finishing run a fight over a wristlock. A scratching clawing primal fight for escape only for kenny to lean in and get wrecked and level himself by the final rainmakers. The finishing stretch was equal parts headscratching as it was captivating but I much preferred it to 4 high fly flow to the knee variants of main events we'd be getting for the past couple years.

 

It's not a flawless match, it's not a flawless style. It's certainly not 6 stars, it's not 5 stars, but it's comfortably upper echelon, if not all time, than for the here and now. There's a certain level of, I guess acceptance, that I think these matches are going to make us all come to (or not come to grips with). Wrestling has always been a "can do it, will do it" exhibition. It's why guys don't still work like lou thesz. In 2017, main events, with super athletic workers might have poison ranas as transition spots. It just is what it is. You can push back or you can shrug and deal with it. We aren't that far removed from what many consider the best match of all time having all time great workers treat german suplexes like arm drags. This is just what happens.

 

If its going to be this kind of showcase than I'll accept it when it's one worker pouring his all into it on the biggest stage there is. It's match that accomplished things. Preserved okada as an ace. Proved Kenny as a (albeit psychopath) capable top guy in the company. Saved a future finish. Fititngly closed the show. Generated the kind of buzz a match like this has to. Has people all over the world, talking about new japan, and what they have, not just what they've lost.

 

As a match, I loved it despite its flaws. As an individual performance, seeing what it meant to omega, if kenny never has another match better than this, he can be proud. billion stars.

 

...and this'll make one appreciate it the short concise tight match all the same

[pol]

I relate to Dylan's statement about not having any investment in the characters. It's obvious that a match lacking a clear structure or really any sustained periods of control, but with a ton of big moves, counters and near-falls is going to be much more effective if you have some kind of stake in seeing one or the other participant win the match. It's a rollercoaster ride. Absent that investment, I really only had my sense of wrestling aesthetics to go by, and they didn't judge that match kindly at all. That raises the question of how valid an aesthetic sensibility that finds itself so at odds with what works for people enjoying wrestling 'properly' is. I don't think I've given that enough thought to answer it yet, but to say that I don't think it's all that rare in other narrative forms to become engrossed a story that, viewing with detached eyes, you recognise is poorly (or perhaps manipulatively) told, but still enjoy due to your investment in the characters.

 

Probably warrants its own thread, but I was doing some Googling on this subject since I've never really read anything on aesthetics. Found this excerpt from this book, which I think neatly describes a division between different types of fan (and even different experiences from single fans) that doesn't really get talked about all that much. Just dropping it here in case anyone else finds it interesting:

 

 

(I don't mean to imply that it's impossible to make a defense of Okada/Omega as a great match primarily from 'appreciation' rather than 'involvement', but seeing this laid out did ease some of my frustration with people who rave about matches yet seem unable to launch an aesthetic defense of them.)