Boss Rock Posted May 4, 2018 Report Share Posted May 4, 2018 Tomohiro Ishii I'm curious in regards to your take of him being overrated. He's usually the guy who puts on bangers and most folks agree he's great and wonder why he doesn't get a bigger push, yet seems to be absent from most "best in the world" discussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shodate Posted May 4, 2018 Report Share Posted May 4, 2018 Tomohiro Ishii I'm curious in regards to your take of him being overrated. He's usually the guy who puts on bangers and most folks agree he's great and wonder why he doesn't get a bigger push, yet seems to be absent from most "best in the world" discussions. I think Ishii a lot of people may dislike his style and his stiff Head buts that herd and read that view on the Pitbull not saying Kix think that way but iv seen people who do i pd not think that is vaid thing to say since if its style thing its close minded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superkix Posted May 4, 2018 Report Share Posted May 4, 2018 Tomohiro Ishii I'm curious in regards to your take of him being overrated. He's usually the guy who puts on bangers and most folks agree he's great and wonder why he doesn't get a bigger push, yet seems to be absent from most "best in the world" discussions. He has a particular style that doesn't necessarily mesh well with everyone he goes up against, especially when he's working outside of NJPW, and can come off as tiring and robotic after the 10th strike exchange. That being said, I think he's underrated as a seller and conveys emotion better than most in New Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 4, 2018 Report Share Posted May 4, 2018 He has a particular style that doesn't necessarily mesh well with everyone he goes up against, especially when he's working outside of NJPW, and can come off as tiring and robotic after the 10th strike exchange. That being said, I think he's underrated as a seller and conveys emotion better than most in New Japan. That and a great sense of timing are actually the reasons he's so good. People focusing on strike exchange (which is a modern puroresu trope, not an Ishii trope per say) just miss the bigger picture with Ishii. He's a detail and nuance guy. Terrific worker with quite an interesting career arc too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fxnj Posted May 5, 2018 Report Share Posted May 5, 2018 Navarro can be so bombastic/over the top that he can sometime take away from a match. It's more of a Dick Murdoch thing than a Dr. Wagner Jr. thing, but even that's not entirely right. It is in his mastery of being able to take over a match and sort of infect it with what he wants, but what he wasn't isn't the sort of comedy Murdoch would bring. It's endearing but occasionally unfortunate. Sometimes I wonder if it's because he's self-conscious due to his age. Could you name some specific examples from matches? I've seen a fair amount and never really thought he was comparable to Murdoch. Short answer: Not really, but I'll try to if you give me some time. I have one example but it's very minor. At around the 24:30 mark, he's matched with Black Terry and he sprinkles in some stuff that's more style than substance. It's very cool and very fun, just little bits of misdirection, but for the point of the match that they were at, and the stakes, and what came before, it took me out of things just a little bit. I feel like there are more blatant examples, however. Maybe this will give you a sense of what I mean though? Thanks for posting that match. Forgot how great it was and how awesome Navarro was in 2009. I believe that match was set-up when, immediately after a heated match the prior week, Navarro cut a promo about how he could kick Terry's ass. I only know that because my mom, who knows Spanish, happened to be in the room while I watched it, lol. Anyway, it makes sense given that that he'd act cocky when he finally does get his hands on Terry. Looking just within that match, though, it seems pretty clear that he's baiting Terry until he finds an opening to apply the RNC, which also goes with his role as the cagey veteran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted May 5, 2018 Report Share Posted May 5, 2018 I like Orton's chinlocks. He works them like he's actually trying to rip his opponent's head off, unlike most WWE heels who think that working a hold means making mean faces while applying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted May 5, 2018 Report Share Posted May 5, 2018 Orton right now is one of my favorite wrestlers. And I was indifferent to him for years. But, rich, happily married family man Orton, who literally grew up in the business, has evolved into a guy I truly enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rah Posted May 5, 2018 Report Share Posted May 5, 2018 When I saw this topic, I thought of Negro Navarro, who I like a lot but who I wish we had more criticisms of him. So he is very underrated by so many that don't go out of their way to watch lucha libre, or know of lucha libre. But I feel that he's overrated in the sense that you rarely see anything critical written about his matches, specifically the matches when he just doesn't care about his opponent. Also if we want to compare him to his peers and age group, he is clearly behind Black Terry and Solar, who I feel are far more complete workers and more engaged with their audience and their opponents. It's been a long time since i watched these guys. Have they produced anything good in the past few years? Black Terry has been the most consistent. He's produced truly great matches in almost every year this decade (hitting a home run against Wotan of all people) and barely fails to disappoint when needed. Stick him against any indy scrub with a beer bottle and he produces. Meanwhile Navarro is rather hit and miss depending on his opponent or setting. He's got the goods like his matches with Virus and Sabre Jr but he has some rather meandering performances. If we're all honest regarding Navarro, we tend to ignore matches that do hurt his case (mostly his contemporary IWRG work) and focus on maestro-style pairings that would/should always play to our tastes. Lucha is generally skewed in that direction, but I feel Navarro more so than say Casas. As for Solar I don't think there's case for him at all. He's ranged from average to downright bad at points (the latter mostly when tagging with his son). Along with the Navarro/Solar touring act becoming stale a few years back, I don't think he has much to bring anymore. Much like Pirata Morgan, he should probably put his career to pasture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthedoctor Posted May 5, 2018 Report Share Posted May 5, 2018 I think Kevin Owens falls into this category too. He's not as amazing as his biggest fans make him out to be, but I don't find myself as bored by his matches as many people do here. Owens is a great call. I do think a good chunk of his stint in WWE has been lazy and uninspired, but he's also not exactly turning in clunkers every single time either. Dude just gets in his own way too often with the chinlocks and trying to be "cute". But he's also had some legitimately really good stuff sprinkled here and there. Im suprised they actually let him beat Cena twice and win the US belt, he should have been kept on NXT instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted May 5, 2018 Report Share Posted May 5, 2018 I think with Navarro, he has a set formula when he's working against guys he clearly sees as below him and it's just frustrating to watch at times. I remember I used to joke about it when Mike Quackenbush complained about Navarro working that way on his MySpace, and thought Quackenbush was being too sensitive, but after watching so much Navarro this decade, I see what Quack was getting at. I was kinda surprised by his match with Sabre Jr. I really dug it a lot and it's my favorite Navarro match in years. Honestly thought going in that Navarro would just stick him in his lazy "lock a hold, talk shit, and release the hold" formula but they actually were countering one another. Amused that some of the reviews were framing Navarro as this 'real' maestro and Sabre as some fake wrestler or whatever, when it was clear watching the match and seeing the post-match interviews with media that Navarro really liked Sabre and his style of wrestling a lot. Also, I do sometimes feel odd critiquing Navarro since maybe our expectations are too high, but also try my best to compare him to those around him, and in his age group. I'd be more excited attending a live show with Solar than Navarro at this point. I saw Solar at a MMA gym in March, in a trios match where he was the captain of his tecnico team with local luchadores against Fuerza Guerrera and his team of local rudos. Match was a blast, not like blowaway great or whatever, but just a good solid match, with Solar and Fuerza using all these little tricks and old school routines to get the crowd invested. I think Solar, Black Terry, and even current day Pirata Morgan are just smarter workers than Navarro, or at least more interested in trying different things. In the past year, online and in person, I've seen Pirata have bloodbaths, comedy matches, WWE 2000 Hardcore-style matches, and okay-ish trios matches, and while none have been great, they've at least been pretty fun and worked for the crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricR Posted May 6, 2018 Report Share Posted May 6, 2018 I also saw Solar live earlier this year, against Skayde and a local guy. The match was worked with only two men in the ring at once, with the other able to tag in, which was obviously preferred to a 3 way. Solar really busted butt for the 19 minute runtime, with an impressive gas tank (especially for a dude in his 60s), even getting into the ring for his final run of the match by flipping over the ropes. Skayde was fat and slow and didn't do a ton of "Skayde stuff", but Solar carried himself like a legend, and worked respectably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted May 6, 2018 Report Share Posted May 6, 2018 Great to hear about Solar. Yeah I was pretty impressed by him and Fuerza the last time I saw them, both were doing their best to make sure the fans left happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachchaos Posted May 6, 2018 Report Share Posted May 6, 2018 How about Chris Candido? There's a guy who - perhaps since he is no longer with us - is always rated as a top notch worker among his peers, drawing comparisons to high level American workers of the time such as Michaels and Benoit. He is usually referenced by fellow members of the ECW crew as the best worker in that particular locker room. However, for certain students who have done their homework and watched all the available footage, I'm not sure he even cracks the top 5 all-time workers for ECW on most lists. While most everyone agrees his best stuff was in SMW, claiming he was a top tier US worker at the time seems a bit much. Does he fit in here? In terms of career trajectory it's about as middle-of-the-road as it gets but Candido never ceases to entertain me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 6, 2018 Report Share Posted May 6, 2018 How about Chris Candido? There's a guy who - perhaps since he is no longer with us - is always rated as a top notch worker among his peers, drawing comparisons to high level American workers of the time such as Michaels and Benoit. He is usually referenced by fellow members of the ECW crew as the best worker in that particular locker room. However, for certain students who have done their homework and watched all the available footage, I'm not sure he even cracks the top 5 all-time workers for ECW on most lists. While most everyone agrees his best stuff was in SMW, claiming he was a top tier US worker at the time seems a bit much. Does he fit in here? In terms of career trajectory it's about as middle-of-the-road as it gets but Candido never ceases to entertain me. Along those lines is Owen.. He's probably overrated for his 80s workrate-y stuff and underrated for his 90s character-driven heel stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shodate Posted May 6, 2018 Report Share Posted May 6, 2018 How about Chris Candido? There's a guy who - perhaps since he is no longer with us - is always rated as a top notch worker among his peers, drawing comparisons to high level American workers of the time such as Michaels and Benoit. He is usually referenced by fellow members of the ECW crew as the best worker in that particular locker room. However, for certain students who have done their homework and watched all the available footage, I'm not sure he even cracks the top 5 all-time workers for ECW on most lists. While most everyone agrees his best stuff was in SMW, claiming he was a top tier US worker at the time seems a bit much. Does he fit in here? In terms of career trajectory it's about as middle-of-the-road as it gets but Candido never ceases to entertain me. Along those lines is Owen.. He's probably overrated for his 80s workrate-y stuff and underrated for his 90s character-driven heel stuff. When his best heel stuff was in the indies that most peopel who only watch wwe have never seen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted May 6, 2018 Report Share Posted May 6, 2018 What heel stuff did Owen do in the indies? Besides his USWA work, I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shodate Posted May 6, 2018 Report Share Posted May 6, 2018 What heel stuff did Owen do in the indies? Besides his USWA work, I mean. qhilw on PWO people will say his stuff in Japan is indie Just like bret Owen was heel in Japan The Mainstream Narrative is everything out side of WWE or back than WWE and WCW is indie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shodate Posted May 6, 2018 Report Share Posted May 6, 2018 Though i do not rate people on promo Ambrose is underrated as promo guy in wwe some of his Moxley promos are spectacular im one on the overrated side i say just let him be Moxley on the mic and he will be loved in the way Punk was Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fxnj Posted May 6, 2018 Report Share Posted May 6, 2018 Any matches you'd recommend? I've seen Owen work NJPW and seemed like just juniors workrate stuff without much in the way of heeling it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shodate Posted May 6, 2018 Report Share Posted May 6, 2018 Any matches you'd recommend? I've seen Owen work NJPW and seemed like just juniors workrate stuff without much in the way of heeling it up. Atifact of the time new Japan did nor change all gaijin were heels all Japan did change the funks and Ace were faces for example in all japan so by that fact all owen's stuff was heel the first Gajin non |Heel in New Japan was Pegasus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted May 6, 2018 Report Share Posted May 6, 2018 There's no way on earth I'd ever classify New Japan of any era as an "indy." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shodate Posted May 6, 2018 Report Share Posted May 6, 2018 There's no way on earth I'd ever classify New Japan of any era as an "indy." id say not people here in alot of other places everything outside WWE is called indie yet again the state no on PWO in any way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fxnj Posted May 6, 2018 Report Share Posted May 6, 2018 Any matches you'd recommend? I've seen Owen work NJPW and seemed like just juniors workrate stuff without much in the way of heeling it up. Atifact of the time new Japan did nor change all gaijin were heels all Japan did change the funks and Ace were faces for example in all japan so by that fact all owen's stuff was heel the first Gajin non |Heel in New Japan was Pegasus Never thought of Hogan or Backlund as heels in NJPW based on their work there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted May 6, 2018 Report Share Posted May 6, 2018 Backlund wasn't exactly Tiger Jeet Singh but I watched the 6/79 Inoki match the other day and he was throwing tantrums at the crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSR Posted May 6, 2018 Report Share Posted May 6, 2018 What heel stuff did Owen do in the indies? Besides his USWA work, I mean. qhilw on PWO people will say his stuff in Japan is indie Just like bret Owen was heel in Japan The Mainstream Narrative is everything out side of WWE or back than WWE and WCW is indie No it isn't, stop talking rubbish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.