WWE Extreme Rules 2018

[sek69]

Funny how only WWE seems to be plagued by fans who don't act the way they are supposed to act. In a normal week I watch WWE/ROH/Impact/MLW/CMLL and sometimes AAA when they put one of their live events up on Twitch. WWE seems to be the only one who has to deal with fan revolt on a regular basis. The other companies are at least trying to give the fans what they want instead of it being a constant battle of "Oh you like this guy instead of who we want you to like? Then it's time to job him out". It's like the era in TNA where their fans would chant "Fire Russo" at the dumb shit they would do on their shows (that he was of course responsible for).  WWE fans can't do that because you can't fire Vince, nor do they know which one of the rougly 76 million writers wrote whatever segment they are mad at, so what else can they do?

[Matt D]

1 hour ago, sek69 said:

Funny how only WWE seems to be plagued by fans who don't act the way they are supposed to act. In a normal week I watch WWE/ROH/Impact/MLW/CMLL and sometimes AAA when they put one of their live events up on Twitch. WWE seems to be the only one who has to deal with fan revolt on a regular basis. The other companies are at least trying to give the fans what they want instead of it being a constant battle of "Oh you like this guy instead of who we want you to like? Then it's time to job him out". It's like the era in TNA where their fans would chant "Fire Russo" at the dumb shit they would do on their shows (that he was of course responsible for).  WWE fans can't do that because you can't fire Vince, nor do they know which one of the rougly 76 million writers wrote whatever segment they are mad at, so what else can they do?

Los Ingobernables exist, in good part, to the Arena México crowd rejecting all the tecnicos after Mistico left.

[sek69]

Arena Mexico has been a rudo crowd forever,  a lot of the casual audience that Mistico brought in were more of the typical "cheer faces, boo heels" type. When he left so did they. 

In fact a lot of the reason the houses have gone up (prior to LA Park's run) is the tourist buses that make going to a CMLL show part of the package when you visit.  The last time there was an earthquake in Mexico City it took them a while to bounce back despite only being shut down a week or so because the tourists were scared to come back for a while.

 

*editied to add* Even we were to use that as examples of a crowd rejecting what was being offered, what did CMLL do? They created a heel faction that got over with those rudo fans. When the company that has long been labeled the most stubborn promotion on the world was more effective combating fan backlash, you're officially doing things wrong. 

[Matt D]

22 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Arena Mexico has been a rudo crowd forever,  a lot of the casual audience that Mistico brought in were more of the typical "cheer faces, boo heels" type. When he left so did they. 

In fact a lot of the reason the houses have gone up (prior to LA Park's run) is the tourist buses that make going to a CMLL show part of the package when you visit.  The last time there was an earthquake in Mexico City it took them a while to bounce back despite only being shut down a week or so because the tourists were scared to come back for a while.

 

*editied to add* Even we were to use that as examples of a crowd rejecting what was being offered, what did CMLL do? They created a heel faction that got over with those rudo fans. When the company that has long been labeled the most stubborn promotion on the world was more effective combating fan backlash, you're officially doing things wrong. 

I don't at all disagree with your last point.

[ButchReedMark]

2 hours ago, sek69 said:

Funny how only WWE seems to be plagued by fans who don't act the way they are supposed to act. 

Not strictly true though, is it? From a Welsh point of view, unless it's All Star or Welsh Wrestling doing the family  holiday camp style shows (There's not greater feeling as an MC than 300 children going  like it's a Sammartino comeback as the main event is an 8 man "Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrroyal Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrumble!") it's people who "love wrestling" but don't give a fuck when it's offered up to them at shows around here. It's a night out on the beer acting up to what they love on WhatCulture videos because everyone is smart now. They'll pop for their favourites til they're in the ring, then it's hilarious chant time.

[sek69]

Well I can only go on the shows I see on TV on a weekly basis, but the local indy I went to a few months back didn't have any incongruious chanting, but if they do it's still kind of on the company to put on a product that engages the audience so as to give them reason not to go into business for themselves and give a shit about what is being presented in the ring. 

[ButchReedMark]

Is it a family style All Star-esque product or which kind? Only British indy crowds are shocking. It just strikes me that the idea of wrestling is cool at the moment, hence you get Al Bundy's wife off Modern Family going to PWG, Max Landis making a hotly recieved short film, mainstream documentaries and stuff, but actual wrestling itself seems to be an afterthought. It seems to be part of post-ironic pop culture. 

[stunning_grover]

I don't know... The fans paid for their ticket. They enjoyed the show their way. That's all that really matters to WWE probably.

I know it was a weird crowd reaction with the whole countdown thing, but, maybe everyone was just drunk and had a good time.

I'm sure WWE doesn't really worry about it too much. People watched on the Network, people bought tickets to the live show and we'll all be here again next month discussion the next PPV on this forum. Just another WWE PPV, really.

If anything, the WWE has learned a valuable lesson; no clocks, unless it's the Royal Rumble.

[SomethingSavage]

I'm convinced Seth really just doesn't understand pro wrestling psychology. He spent a year as THE main event heel, working like a pure babyface.

Then he returns, the crowd reacts to him as a babyface, but they keep his character heel - and he works like a pure babyface again anyway.

But wait. Then they actually do make him a character babyface, but he continues to cut promos like the world's whiniest, rattiest, most entitled heel character anyhow. Because reasons.

At Extreme Rules, he's supposed be garnering sympathy and fighting back from this great deficit. And it's an uphill battle from the start, because he couldn't buy those fans' support if he personally handed them bricks of cold hard cash one by one.

So what's he do? He goes the tried & true cocky heel route and does jumping jacks to taunt Dolph. And, in that moment, the fans just let out this loud audible groan.

It doesn't seem like a big deal, but it's the kind of thing that elicits a response of, "Well. He had it coming." whenever the heel starts to beat him down. It's the opposite of what you want when you're trying to set up a long baby face comeback. I know some folks will cite cocky babyfaces using arrogant taunts & stuff, and sure. That happens. But only specific characters can pull that off & get away with it. Seth Rollins is not one of those guys.

And of course his weak suicide dive comeback died a silent death. But hey. They went on to pop for a couple of his signature spots before it was done. So I'm sure someone will claim he's super over or whatever.

I actually thought Dolph put on a fine performance. Everything after the Drew DQ was solid stuff on his part. He could definitely give Seth some tips on how to work heel. The way he desperately kept going back to the Sleeper was a nice touch, and I noticed he's dialed down some of the exaggerated bumping. Maybe he's finally matured enough to understand every bump & feed sequence doesn't need to turn into a clown show. But yeah. Dolph was definitely the better half of this match.

[SomethingSavage]

They also continue to book their babyfaces like total goofs. The same distraction fuck finish was used on Nia, Asuka, and then Seth in the main event. Their babyfaces are made to look so bad so often.

[sek69]

7 minutes ago, SomethingSavage said:

They also continue to book their babyfaces like total goofs. The same distraction fuck finish was used on Nia, Asuka, and then Seth in the main event. Their babyfaces are made to look so bad so often.

I feel like sometimes people overanalyze what's wrong with current WWE and that the answer is just that simple. Could you imagine them ever booking a Hogan or Austin type as bad as today's babyfaces are? 

[SomethingSavage]

22 minutes ago, sek69 said:

I feel like sometimes people overanalyze what's wrong with current WWE and that the answer is just that simple. Could you imagine them ever booking a Hogan or Austin type as bad as today's babyfaces are? 

Absolutely not.

It also doesn't help that so many of them are too job scared to stand up for themselves or shoot something down.

Hogan knew how & when to say no. Austin shot shit down left & right, even refusing to work with guys who he considered personal friends and road buddies - all because he thought about his image and his money first and foremost.

Even Cena, the closest thing to those guys in terms of stroke and star power, has fallen victim to this yes man, job scared culture they have now.

Folks spin it by saying that Cena is so giving and so willing to do what's best for business - and that's true. But it's also true that there are times when a top guy should take care of his top guy status & behave like a top guy, and that means knowing how to pick your battles and say no to some of their shitty suggestions.

[Tetsujin]

I can think about probably a dozen of reasons why WWE's product sucks right now. Workers doing their job and not wanting to lose it it's not one of them.

[SomethingSavage]

It's one of the smartest things you can do in your job - any job - to know your worth and stick to it. Know your worth, as long as you show your work. A long enough period of NOBODY doing that creates a work environment where everyone is interchangeable and meaningless. It ultimately lowers the bar for everyone.

[Loss]

As I mentioned on Twitter, this is a show where Dave rated four of the matches at ***+. Three additional matches had a highlight reel Mick Foley-level bump, a title change, and the return of their biggest star in a hot angle. Yet the show was 73% thumbs down in the Observer. What is it that people want? I know what they don't want. What do they want? Do people choose to like or dislike a show mostly based on how much they like the finishes? If so, all this talk about how much "wrestling has changed" is overwrought because it hasn't.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

22 minutes ago, Loss said:

As I mentioned on Twitter, this is a show where Dave rated four of the matches at ***+. Three additional matches had a highlight reel Mick Foley-level bump, a title change, and the return of their biggest star in a hot angle. Yet the show was 73% thumbs down in the Observer. What is it that people want? I know what they don't want. What do they want? Do people choose to like or dislike a show mostly based on how much they like the finishes? If so, all this talk about how much "wrestling has changed" is overwrought because it hasn't.

Among the type of fan who votes in the Observer poll, it’s basically being contrarian to say a WWE show was good.  It wasn’t a great show by any means but there was some very good stuff on it.  There was also bad stuff.  Like 99.9% of all professional wrestling shows in history.  I actually expected it to be a more well-received show on that poll since Reigns lost, though, because I do think that it usually is driven by whether or not people they don’t like win.  In short, these particular voters appear to want five hours of Omega/Okada.

[Loss]

Reigns lost and there was a **** title match with a guy put in that spot based on fan demand, yeah. Facing a champion put in that spot based on fan demand, for that matter.

[Loss]

To be clear, I'm not saying anyone should have liked it or not liked it. I'm just trying to understand it. What was Extreme Rules missing to put it over the top?

[SomethingSavage]

It would've helped if Rusev had been presented as having a chance in hell going in. I don't think anyone bought into the idea of him leaving as champ. And I'm not even saying he should have. He definitely hasn't been primed for that spot, and Styles is the man. But when you've got a predictable finish - especially one that leaves a fan favorite darling beaten at the end - then a "good match" isn't really enough to remove the bad taste.

You mentioned the terrible finishes, and I don't think that should be glossed over at all. At least three different matches ended with the exact same "heel distraction" scenario. It resulted in at least three - possibly four if you count Ronda - babyfaces looking like goofs in a fuck finish situation. Nia, Asuka, and Seth all came away looking worse.

You damage the credibility of your babyfaces when you consistently present them as these naive fools. And I understand that you kind of have to do it every once in awhile, for the sake of telling stories and creating a demand for rematches. But there's a big difference in utilizing them as a necessary evil and booking three of them on a single card.

I'm not entirely sure what fans wanted, but I can absolutely buy that they weren't pleased by THIS event.

I figure most fans want a card of 8 separate 5-star matches. Because anytime you get variety, I see it criticized. If Nak and Jeff Hardy is strictly an angle, instead of it getting praised for getting the heel heat & moving a story along, most fans will whine about being robbed of a "real" match. If an opener is treated like an opener, it may get some sprinklings of praise - followed by the caveat that it "didn't get enough time" (something Dave himself uses often). They fail to appreciate variety on a card, and it's like there's this demand for every match on every card to try to reach 5 stars. That to me is just as bad as a show like this with its horrible finishes and lack of interest.

So yeah. My line of thinking isn't really in line with most fans that follow WWE these days, so I can only say what *I* found wrong with the show.

[DMJ]

6 hours ago, Loss said:

As I mentioned on Twitter, this is a show where Dave rated four of the matches at ***+. Three additional matches had a highlight reel Mick Foley-level bump, a title change, and the return of their biggest star in a hot angle. Yet the show was 73% thumbs down in the Observer. What is it that people want? I know what they don't want. What do they want? Do people choose to like or dislike a show mostly based on how much they like the finishes? If so, all this talk about how much "wrestling has changed" is overwrought because it hasn't.

Don't mean to be flippant, but...

- Dave's reviews are subjective and while I also had 3 matches at 3-or-more stars, I'd also add that not a single match went to 4 stars. I don't deal with quarter stars, but the key difference, to me, between a 3.5 and a 4-star match is that "must see" quality or "This could be a WWE MOTY" or "This match is worth recommending." I think AJ/Rusev was the closest, but to me, the lack of real heat, suspense, or heel/face dynamic kept it from being a "must see" match. If you paid $70+ to see a show, I think you have every right to expect at least one "must see" match.

- That Rollins/Ziggler match was so flawed in so many ways. It left a real bad taste in fans' mouths. 

- Jeff Hardy is one of the most over acts the WWE has, warranted or not. The live crowds love the guy. I'm guessing there was a sizable part of that audience that, when they see one of their favorites advertised, want to see him wrestle - not take two nut shots. We might take Jeff Hardy for granted here, but imagine if Daniel Bryan was booked this way. People would be losing their shit. Hell, you don't even have to imagine that hard: it happened to Daniel Bryan at a WrestleMania when he was a much lesser star and people were still livid. 

- "The return of their biggest star in a hot angle"? I don't think you're referring to Orton, so you must be referring to Rousey - who was advertised. Its not like her return/involvement was this unexpected huge moment. It was fine, it was good, it delivered (though, I'd argue that having Mickie James in high heels really hurt how fluid their physical interactions were), and I haven't read too many complaints about that aspect of the show. Like the Owens bump, it was probably a highlight for most fans - but the peaks of this show just weren't high enough to cancel out the lows.

Now, compare that to last year's B-PPV Great Balls of Fire, which ended up being one of the better shows of the year. On paper, the crowd wasn't that much better - but it delivered some things that this show didn't. It featured a 30-minute Ironman Match (Cesaro & Sheamus vs. The Hardys) that didn't really offer anything new, but because it stuck to a tried-and-true formula, it connected with the crowd and ended with a hot 5-6 minute stretch. Bliss and Banks had a good physical match. There was some filler (Wyatt/Rollins, Miz/Ambrose), sure, but there was also the incredibly fun Reigns/Strowman match. It was a "must see" because of the insanity of it all. There was still some unhappiness (the crowd chanted "We Want Balor!" during the impromptu Hawkins/Slater match), but overall, that match was really entertaining. Then, in the main, you had a match that was maybe too short to be called truly great, but was no less than good - I had it 3.5, borderline 4 stars just because of the crowd and physicality. What did Great Balls have that Extreme Rules didn't? Well-paced card, a healthy mix of crowd-pleasing finishes and storyline-furthering ones, all the advertised stars actually wrestling...I don't think the WWE fans are impossible to please, I think Extreme Rules was a show that felt irrelevant as it was happening and offered few reasons for fans, especially in attendance, to get up and cheer.

[Loss]

To be clear, I'm not saying "WWE fans are impossible to please" and I'm definitely not saying Dave's ratings aren't subjective. I'm just saying that a show where the individual parts broken up like that don't add up to a consensus thumbs up is atypical. I'm trying to get at why -- not make value judgments -- because I find it interesting.

[Alucard]

Watching it live I was thinking it was one of the all time worst PPVs I could remember, until the later half of the show kicked in and delivered the goods. But the first half was mostly awful. Everything felt super rushed, nothing was getting time. There were 10 matches on the main card and only 3 made it to 10 minutes. B Team winning the titles was flat, Balor/Corbin was a throwaway TV match, Asuka got pinned in a 5 minute nothing match. Nakamura/Hardy was over in 6 seconds, which I think would've been better had it happened later in the show rather than following a series of disappointments. Owens' big bump happened and then we were quickly onto the next segment like no big deal. Advertising the Team Hell No reunion just to take Kane out for the majority sucked along with the Bludgeon Brothers being incredibly boring as champions plus Bryan taking the fall was all just deflating.

The last 4 matches saved the show for me, enough to not say it outright sucked and was more in the middle. Lashley/Reigns was a lot of fun, Styles/Rusev fantastic, Alexa/Nia advanced that story well and the main event was enjoyable. So I could definitely see the reception of 4 matches were rated highly/the rest sucked, as mine is the same.

[sek69]

The in ring work is usually solid to great on a WWE show depending on who's featured, the creative usually sucks. That seems to explain it pretty good to me.  WWE having top to bottom  the best roster in professional wrestling (yes other places have better workers on top, but I'm looking at the whole roster here) yet doesn't seem to know what to do with any of them save the 2-3 guys you've deemed worthy. 

[Coffey]

11 hours ago, SomethingSavage said:

It's one of the smartest things you can do in your job - any job - to know your worth and stick to it. Know your worth, as long as you show your work. A long enough period of NOBODY doing that creates a work environment where everyone is interchangeable and meaningless. It ultimately lowers the bar for everyone.

This reminds me of one of the Kevin Nash shoot interviews he did about leaving WWF for WCW, which ultimately was about money. There was a ceiling for pay in wrestling & they couldn't get through the ceiling. 

Nash was talking about how Bret Hart took less money because he just wanted to be the champion. So because Bret took less money, it meant all the other wrestlers got less money because Vince McMahon could just point to Bret and be like "he's the top guy & he's not getting that money." Bret didn't really know his worth - and this is why some wrestlers called him a mark - because he wanted to be booked strong instead of make more money. Forgetting that it's a job/career at the end of the day. And when you're the top dog, a lot of other wrestlers will look at you as the person with the responsibility of being the voice for the other wrestlers. At least according to the shoot.

Scott Hall goes to WCW for more money. Has a clause in his contract (favored nations) where if someone else signed for more money, his pay goes up. So Nash comes in for more money, so Hall gets paid more. Bret comes in for more money, Hall & Nash both get paid more. It's a business and that's a smart business move.

It's hard to look at the behind-the-scenes aspect of wrestling without taking into account the money & that it's a work, ya know? There's not a WCW that guys can walk to anymore.

So I agree with you, it lowers the bar for everyone & it can make the fans apathetic to the company/card/workers... but also, I can't help but feel like why would the wrestlers work harder when they're not going to get more money or a better push if they do? Or to continue comparing it to other, non-wrestling jobs, they're working at their pay grade. Everyone is just coasting & doing just enough to not get fired.. but why should they do more? There's no incentive. Zack Ryder goes out & gets himself over, tries to grab the brass ring & gets buried. The Women's Revolution with all the 4-horsewomen busting their asses leads to Alexa Bliss & Carmella being on top.  No one is hungry and they have really no reason to be if they're under the WWE umbrella. I imagine a lot of the roster has had the wind taken out of their sails on multiple occasions. Look at the majority of NXT call-ups: Ascension, Neville, The Revival, Tyler Breeze, Adam Rose, No Way Jose, Authors of Pain, Emma, Apollo Crews, Dana Brooke, The Vaudevillains, etc.

Kevin Owens took a Mick Foley style spot - Chokeslammed off a cage through the announce table. What does he have to show for it a week later? Even at the end of the PPV on the same night no one was talking about it. Everyone was talking about the fans doing countdown chants instead. Risked breaking his body for what?

Honestly, I wish we had more guys like Cody Rhodes, Austin Aries, Juice Robinson or Neville that were willing to walk away from WWE instead of just signing new contracts & coasting. I think it would improve the shows. But as a man (or woman), with a family to support... it would be really, really hard to turn down that money because of pride or wanting to prove your craft or because you're not featured on TV in the way you want.

[Stiva]

48 minutes ago, sek69 said:

The in ring work is usually solid to great on a WWE show depending on who's featured, the creative usually sucks. That seems to explain it pretty good to me.  WWE having top to bottom  the best roster in professional wrestling (yes other places have better workers on top, but I'm looking at the whole roster here) yet doesn't seem to know what to do with any of them save the 2-3 guys you've deemed worthy. 

Yeah, I think this is it. If you take just about every WWE match in a vacuum, they're good by any conventional in-ring scale. It's when you hit the booking that things begin to take a sour turn. If you're someone who takes booking decisions into account when reviewing matches, Extreme Rules would probably be different but if you're just looking at the structure, execution, in-ring story etc, it was a high level wrestling PPV. They're their own worst enemy when it comes to creative and it leaves such a sour taste over everything else.