All Elite Wrestling

[Bix]

On 11/29/2019 at 4:47 PM, sek69 said:

Kip did an interview revealing Penelope as his new valet, and she made a comment about who needs a Bad Boy when you can have Superbad.  It was clearly a line designed to imply the two would be feuding at some point that it looks like she threw in on her own. 

It was worse than that: The promo was immediately after Janela-Spears, and then they cut to Joey being helped to the back immediately afterwards. There was no way to take it other than a hint at a Janela-Sabian program (as opposed to just closing a loop and explaining why Penelope disappeared after Double or Nothing, which feels like a thing AEW would do) because of the placement.

[C.S.]

I mean, I get why they did it, but does anyone really give a fuck about Joey Janela's love life???

[El-P]

11 minutes ago, C.S. said:

I mean, I get why they did it, but does anyone really give a fuck about Joey Janela's love life???

No, but a valet leaving a wrestler to go with another wrestler is pro-wrestling angle 101. This is Missy Hyatt leaving John Tatum for Eddie Gilbert (and now that I think of it, you can definitely make an analogy between Eddie Gilbert and Joey Janela too). I hope they do work that angle at some point. Ford is super fun as a valet who can bump and do cool shit.

[The Thread Killer]

36 minutes ago, C.S. said:

I mean, I get why they did it, but does anyone really give a fuck about Joey Janela's love life???

FTFY

[C.S.]

28 minutes ago, El-P said:

(and now that I think of it, you can definitely make an analogy between Eddie Gilbert and Joey Janela too) 

This I gotta hear...

Eddie Gilbert is one of the most underrated and influential wrestlers ever.

Joey Janela is Joey Janela. 

[El-P]

5 minutes ago, C.S. said:

Eddie Gilbert is one of the most underrated and influential wrestlers ever.

Joey Janela is Joey Janela. 

Eddie Gilbert was a small guy who had a great mind for new ideas. He was instrumental in kicking off garbage wrestling cult matches with Cactus Jack in the Phillie area before ECW, and then was instrumental in putting ECW on the map. He had a super cool act with his hot-as-fuck and great valet Missy Hyatt. He was deemed "too small" by old-school mentality.

Joey Janela is a small guy who has a great mind for new ideas. He's made his name in cult garbage matches and was successful in promoting some of the most crazy and innovative indy shows at Mania week-ends for the last few years. He had a super cool act with his hot-as-fuck and great valet Penelope Fort. He's deemed "too small" by old-school mentality.

[Ricky Jackson]

If he starts throwing fireballs I'll definitely become more interested 

[PeteF3]

Hey, hey, baby steps: let's see if Joey Janela can at least eclipse Shane McMahon when it comes to throwing a damn punch, first.

[WingedEagle]

I'm still waiting for Joey Janela to click.  Right now he's one of the few acts in AEW that on a Wednesday night will immediately see me flip to NXT or a basketball game.

[Migs]

1 hour ago, El-P said:

Eddie Gilbert was a small guy who had a great mind for new ideas. He was instrumental in kicking off garbage wrestling cult matches with Cactus Jack in the Phillie area before ECW, and then was instrumental in putting ECW on the map. He had a super cool act with his hot-as-fuck and great valet Missy Hyatt. He was deemed "too small" by old-school mentality.

Joey Janela is a small guy who has a great mind for new ideas. He's made his name in cult garbage matches and was successful in promoting some of the most crazy and innovative indy shows at Mania week-ends for the last few years. He had a super cool act with his hot-as-fuck and great valet Penelope Fort. He's deemed "too small" by old-school mentality.

I think part of why people are having trouble "clicking" with Janela is that there's a lot of what makes people love the guy that isn't on screen. He's the mind behind Spring Break, the guy that launched PCO and Marko and all sorts of other acts people enjoy - other than All In, it's hard to find an indy show that's mattered more over the last few years. He's a fan in the way a lot of us are (when he wrestled Low Ki, he made him bust out the Ki Krusher because Janela's such an indy wrestling nerd that he was excited to take the move) and so if you connect to him at all, it's really easy to connect deeply.

In much the same way I'm sure a lot of people wanted Eddie to just focus on booking, Janela's obvious mind for the business means he could be a big deal behind the scenes, but he wants to wrestle. Unfortunately for him, I think, outside of being willing to take crazy bumps, his best trait is his storytelling ability (check the build to, and payoff of his feud with David Starr in Beyond for a great example), but he hasn't really gotten much of an angle to work with in AEW. I also don't think he works great in a tight TV match structure, which is going to be a problem - his best stuff tends to stretch and be a bit flabby (see the match with Page at All In or the Iron Man match with Starr).

 

[WingedEagle]

56 minutes ago, Migs said:

I think part of why people are having trouble "clicking" with Janela is that there's a lot of what makes people love the guy that isn't on screen. He's the mind behind Spring Break, the guy that launched PCO and Marko and all sorts of other acts people enjoy - other than All In, it's hard to find an indy show that's mattered more over the last few years. He's a fan in the way a lot of us are (when he wrestled Low Ki, he made him bust out the Ki Krusher because Janela's such an indy wrestling nerd that he was excited to take the move) and so if you connect to him at all, it's really easy to connect deeply.

In much the same way I'm sure a lot of people wanted Eddie to just focus on booking, Janela's obvious mind for the business means he could be a big deal behind the scenes, but he wants to wrestle. Unfortunately for him, I think, outside of being willing to take crazy bumps, his best trait is his storytelling ability (check the build to, and payoff of his feud with David Starr in Beyond for a great example), but he hasn't really gotten much of an angle to work with in AEW. I also don't think he works great in a tight TV match structure, which is going to be a problem - his best stuff tends to stretch and be a bit flabby (see the match with Page at All In or the Iron Man match with Starr).

 

These are all fair points.  The best Janela I've seen (heard) was when he appeared on Austin's podcast.  He's clearly a wrestling fan who eats, sleeps and breathes the business.  I just don't like to see him actually wrestle.

[The Thread Killer]

On 12/3/2019 at 4:58 PM, WingedEagle said:

He's clearly a wrestling fan who eats, sleeps and breathes the business.  I just don't like to see him actually wrestle.

One of Jim Cornette's frequent talking points about Janela that I actually agree with, is that just because you're a fan of something it doesn't mean you should automatically be qualified to do it.  Love and passion are great, but there has to be natural skill in there as well.  Hell, I love NFL football and am a passionate fan of the Arizona Cardinals...that doesn't mean they should put me on the fucking team.  Look at CM Punk.  He was a hardcore UFC fan and was more passionate about that than he was his own Pro Wrestling career.  Look how far that got him. 

Only in Pro Wrestling does it seem that if you're a huge fan and really passionate about it, that somehow qualifies you to try it.  Joey Janela does not have the body of an athlete, but that's only the start of the problem.  When he's not doing stupid hardcore shit, his work clearly sucks.  I don't know who the fuck trained that guy, but Janela should ask for his money back.  He can't throw a punch...and he's supposed to be a brawler.  From everything I've seen so far, he has no goddamn idea how to get his character across and get fans to take him seriously.  He makes ridiculous facial expressions and can't convey any believably in his promos...at least none of the ones I've seen. 

I don't hate AEW at all, they've actually done a lot of stuff I've really enjoyed. I think Darby Allin is one of the hottest prospects in the entire business right now, and I've even started to come around on Orange Cassidy because they're just using him as comedy relief, and it's not like anybody is actually selling his shit.  (That segment with him and Pac a couple of weeks ago was awesome.)  But Joey Janela is a bridge too far.  I don't care how anybody tries to justify him or dress it up...that dude fucking sucks.

[War is Raw]

His AEW character reminds me of a poor man's Mick Foley- a fanboy who gets his ass kicked in innovative ways. The Eddie Gilbert comparison is deep- I like it.

I know a woman in real life who loves his hair and thinks he's cute. We both saw him for the first time at Fyter's Fest against Mox, which we liked, and then watched his documentary on Youtube and were sold on his story.

Like 99% of the AEW personalities, one has to research the backgrounds and history outside of Dynamite/Dark to figure out who they are. I admit I still don't know about his indie work or what he does behind the scenes.

That said, his chain wrestling and basics are not there yet. He's still only entertaining when he's getting destroyed with highspots.

 

 

The Thread Killer, your Abe Simpson avatar fits. Jim is gatekeeping what "qualified" means. Anyone who can get over is qualified to be a wrestler.

Fans that become wrestlers were told they could never make money in the biz anyway, so they look at it as a passionate hobby where they could relive their childhood memories. The Elite are just as "guilty" as this as Janela is. Omega won Wrestler of the Year. He has no credentials before starting out. Triple H was a WWF and JCP mark and his qualification was "rich, steroid using bodybuilder who trained at Killer Kowalski's school". Punk was a fan of wrestling. Qualification? Comic Book Guy. Mick Foley? Jumped off his roof. Dynamite Kid was a fan at the matches and told he was too small. Hogan was a fan who tried out. Experience? Band member. Larry Z? Obsessive Bruno mark.

Most of those ECW guys were not qualified to wrestle, but are still talked about today and were influential. I guess you could label Joey Janela like one of them, if you'd like. Cornette longs for the day fighters got into 'rasslin to put food on the table. It's unrealistic nostalgia and I cited plenty of examples which he and you probably would object to because it doesn't fit the narrative.

When do we look up to wrestlers viewing the industry as a "job" to make money in, anyway? Guys who did that like Warrior and Nash get killed for that mentality. Speaking of which, one was a steroid using hustler and the other a bouncer. Both got over. I find it ironic, Ole Anderson, perhaps the most ruthless, strict, outspoken hater of unqualified fanboys, discovered and pushed Hawk and Animal.

[The Thread Killer]

1 hour ago, War is Raw said:

I know a woman in real life who loves his hair and thinks he's cute. We both saw him for the first time at Fyter's Fest against Mox, which we liked, and then watched his documentary on Youtube and were sold on his story.

Like 99% of the AEW personalities, one has to research the backgrounds and history outside of Dynamite/Dark to figure out who they are. I admit I still don't know about his indie work or what he does behind the scenes.

Oh...your friend likes his hair and thinks he's cute?  Well, that changes everything.  I'm officially changing my position on Joey Janela.  He MUST be good, because your friend likes his hair and thinks he's cute.  Plus, I had no idea there was a documentary on YouTube.  That clearly means he doesn't suck.

[The Thread Killer]

1 hour ago, War is Raw said:

The Thread Killer, your Abe Simpson avatar fits. Jim is gatekeeping what "qualified" means. Anyone who can get over is qualified to be a wrestler.

Fans that become wrestlers were told they could never make money in the biz anyway, so they look at it as a passionate hobby where they could relive their childhood memories. The Elite are just as "guilty" as this as Janela is. Omega won Wrestler of the Year. He has no credentials before starting out. Triple H was a WWF and JCP mark and his qualification was "rich, steroid using bodybuilder who trained at Killer Kowalski's school". Punk was a fan of wrestling. Qualification? Comic Book Guy. Mick Foley? Jumped off his roof. Dynamite Kid was a fan at the matches and told he was too small. Hogan was a fan who tried out. Experience? Band member. Larry Z? Obsessive Bruno mark.

Most of those ECW guys were not qualified to wrestle, but are still talked about today and were influential. I guess you could label Joey Janela like one of them, if you'd like. Cornette longs for the day fighters got into 'rasslin to put food on the table. It's unrealistic nostalgia and I cited plenty of examples which he and you probably would object to because it doesn't fit the narrative.

When do we look up to wrestlers viewing the industry as a "job" to make money in, anyway? Guys who did that like Warrior and Nash get killed for that mentality. Speaking of which, one was a steroid using hustler and the other a bouncer. Both got over. I find it ironic, Ole Anderson, perhaps the most ruthless, strict, outspoken hater of unqualified fanboys, discovered and pushed Hawk and Animal.

No...wrestlers are qualified to be wrestlers. 

I think he's wildly overrated, but I still think Kenny Omega is an exceptional athlete, in addition to being properly trained.  Triple H was a bodybuilder (which absolutely helped qualify him to be a Pro Wrestler) but then he trained with Kowalski. Mick Foley was also a collegiate athlete, who had proper training from Dominic Denucci.  Dynamite Kid underwent some of the most intensive training a guy could go through in order to become a Professional Wrestler.  Hulk Hogan was also an athlete who was scouted for a potential Pro Baseball career before being trained by Hiro Matsuda.  All of those guys you named have nothing in common with Joey Janela for three reasons:

1) They had athletic backgrounds prior to becoming Professional Wrestlers

2) They had in depth training to become Professional Wrestlers

and

3) They don't suck.

Joey Janela is not a good Professional Wrestler, period...end of story.  He doesn't even have a noticeable grasp of some of the most basic skills Pro Wrestlers are taught during training, like how to throw a convincing looking punch, or how to cut an even remotely convincing promo.  If you don't believe me, look no further than the promo he cut prior to his match with Moxley on Dynamite this past week.  He spent the entire promo mugging to the camera and making bizarre faces.  I literally don't know what emotion he was even trying to convey, unless he was in the process of having a seizure or he had been stricken with a sudden bout of Bell's Palsy.

The only guy you mentioned who has anything even remotely in common with Joey Janela would be CM Punk, in that he got directly into Pro Wrestling as a backyarder with no other previous athletic background.  But even Punk then went on to spend years training with Ace Steel before reaching any level of fame.  By the time he got to Ring of Honor he had already more than mastered the basics.  That's the big difference between Punk and Janela, right there.

You call Janela a "poor man's Mick Foley?"  Yeah, real poor.  Poor as in, all Janela can do is bump...and that's it.  Foley himself has said that he wished he didn't get famous for jumping off his roof, because he accidentally inspired a generation of idiots who thought that all it takes to become a Pro Wrestler is falling off of something.  Foley has complained on several occasions that the backyarders and "hardcore" wrestlers who emulated him totally ignore that Foley went on to train extensively with DeNucci and then paid his dues in the territories. Not to mention that Foley (arguably) went on to become one of the great promo guys of all time. Foley didn't have to bump in order to get over, he chose to do it to bring attention to himself, because he knew that he didn't have the look of a Pro Wrestler, but he did have the skill.  Look at his famous match with Shawn Michaels.  Do you think Joey Janela will ever be capable of being part of an actual Pro Wrestling match like that?

It's hilarious that you bring up the Road Warriors, because that's exactly the problem with Joey Janela.  Ole Anderson knew that if you didn't know how to wrestle (which they didn't) then you sure as hell better bring something to the table like looking impressive and intimidating.  Joey Janela doesn't look impressive like The Road Warriors.  He can't wrestle like Mick Foley.  He can't talk like CM Punk. 

But hey...he does have nice hair.

[El-P]

3 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

3) They don't suck.

Yeah, because you're absolutely not trying to paint a personal opinion and bias as a fact. Janela may be not everyone's cut of tea, but to say he just sucks as a pro-wrestler is ridiculous. He's had shitloads of excellent and memorables matches, including a few in AEW already. He's a successful indie show promoter and as such, had more buzz and drew more than say, Nick Aldis (just grabbing that one off the hat for shits and giggles) ever did thus far. That's being a good pro-wrestler too. 

Also, saying Mick Foley was a collegial athlete to try and argue your point is extraordinary ridiculous, I'm sorry to say. Foley got over by taking stupid-ass bump like the nestea plunge on the concrete. That's how he got over. That's totally because he was a collegial athlete and not a masochistical loony who jumped from his roof when he was 16.

Really now, people are totally grasping at straws to justify their own biases.

The whole "He can't throw a punch" argument  (about anyone) is something I need to never hear again in my life and it will be too soon. Do people even realize that throwing a punch was considered by the older of the old-school, as in before the old-school people are usually referring to, as a total shortcut for shitty workers and totally business exposing ? Because you see, if you throw a bunch of punches and the face of the opponent doesn't get black and blue and swollen, then the business is exposed and it's not "realistic". That's also probably why closed fist punches were historically "forbidden". Clotheslines at one point also were considered business exposing shortcuts for shitty workers (just listen to Larry Z.). Now people are bitching because that cowboy guys doesn't do just lariats, because that's realistic brawling old-school pro-wrestling. Guess what, it isn't.

Back to the punches : Hulk Hogan's punches looked like shit. The Rock, oh man, The Rock and his open slaps looking punches were ridiculous. And Steve Austin was a decent stomp-hard-on-the-mat-with-both-feet-because-that's-realistic kinda puncher. Come on now. None of this stuff flies. It never did. So yeah, Joey Janela doesn't throw good punches. Guess what, it's not what can get him over, so no one cares apart from people who don't like/don't get him and have to justify their own distaste by trying to rationalize it with "objective facts". The problem is that very often, rationalizing biases makes for poor argument and discussions. 

I'll say this about Janela, he may very well be a guy like Sandman or Mickey Whipreck (hell, or even Tommy Dreamer, who is respected by all) who will not translate the best in a mainstream context. Have good matches and cool garbage brawl, sure, but maybe not get over to the cult status he reached in the indies, because his nature is being a guy from the indies. We'll see.

[The Thread Killer]

Firstly, who cares if Joey Janela is a "successful" promoter?  That's totally irrelevant and has literally nothing to do with his ability as a Professional Wrestler.  Sam Muchnick might have been the greatest Pro Wrestling promoter of all time...I wouldn't have wanted to see him wrestle either.  Talking about the fact that Janela is a promoter is just a straw man argument which has nothing to do with his skill (or glaring lack thereof) inside the ring.

My point regarding Foley's athletic background (which you're either ignoring or can't seem to comprehend) is that he had an athletic background. Most successful Pro Wrestlers do, before they go on to get trained as Pro Wrestlers.  You can't compare Foley to Janela because Foley was a person who had an athletic background and became a Pro Wrestler.  Janela was a fan and started Pro Wrestling when he was a teenager by lying about his age. He was never properly trained, and it shows.  Lots of people have criticized him for that and he claims he has been trained since, but I don't see any evidence of that. If you come from an athletic background and then get proper training, you're a lot more likely to be a success than you are if you can't even be bothered to learn the basics.  The guys who went on to become a success in Pro Wrestling that didn't have any sort of athletic background at all are probably outnumbered 4 to 1, at least.  I never denied that Foley got famous by bumping, but if that is all he could do we wouldn't be talking about him right now.  He knew how to wrestle and he also knew how to talk, two other things Joey Janela can't do.

You talk about Hulk Hogan and The Rock...agreed their punches didn't look great (although they were both better than Janela.)  The day Joey Janela visibly demonstrates 1/100 of the personal charisma, athletic and/or promo ability of either of those guys, I'll never say a bad word about him again. As far as Joey Janela's punching ability...I'd say it is pretty damn important.  It wouldn't matter if he was Dean Malenko, but Joey Janela is a guy who by his own admission got into Pro Wrestling because he loved death matches and hardcore wrestling.  You don't wrestle in death matches, you brawl.  Call me picky, but if you're going to try and make a career out of brawling then you should maybe...just maybe...learn how to throw a convincing looking punch.  He can bump, and take a beating.  That's literally all he brings to the table.

 

[Matt D]

This is totally off topic, but I wonder now who the best wrestler of the 80s-today who did not grow up a wrestling fan is. Most of the problems with Kurt Angle, for instance, would have been solved if he grew up a fan.

[The Thread Killer]

8 minutes ago, Matt D said:

This is totally off topic, but I wonder now who the best wrestler of the 80s-today who did not grow up a wrestling fan is. Most of the problems with Kurt Angle, for instance, would have been solved if he grew up a fan.

During his "Supercard" shoot interview with Kayfabe Commentaries, King Kong Bundy talked about how he had never been a fan of Pro Wrestling at all before getting into it as a career, and how he wished he had known more about the business in general before he got involved, and maybe his career would have gone differently. It sounded like he'd barely even seen any wrestling before he got involved. It seems like a really weird career to get into without knowing much about it beforehand, but I guess if you're a 400 pound guy it makes sense as a potential career move.

[El-P]

31 minutes ago, The Thread Killer said:

Firstly, who cares if Joey Janela is a "successful" promoter?  That's totally irrelevant and has literally nothing to do with his ability as a Professional Wrestler.

You mean, pro-wrestling is not about promoting yourself to get people see you work at a show ? Damn... I must have misunderstood something then...

No but, seriously, we get your point. But your are trying way too hard to rationalize your distaste for Janela. I understand why he's not your type of wrestler, and like I said I'm not sure if he's gonna successfully translate well in the long run, but he's not nearly as bad as you make him to be (I find him actually quite good in his own way).

[Matt D]

4 minutes ago, The Thread Killer said:

During his "Supercard" shoot interview with Kayfabe Commentaries, King Kong Bundy talked about how he had never been a fan of Pro Wrestling at all before getting into it as a career, and how he wished he had known more about the business in general before he got involved, and maybe his career would have gone differently. It sounded like he'd barely even seen any wrestling before he got involved. It seems like a really weird career to get into without knowing much about it beforehand, but I guess if you're a 400 pound guy it makes sense as a potential career move.

That made me look up Bam Bam Bigelow, who was another guy who shot himself in the foot early, and yep, he hated pro wrestling as a kid.

[The Thread Killer]

4 minutes ago, Matt D said:

That made me look up Bam Bam Bigelow, who was another guy who shot himself in the foot early, and yep, he hated pro wrestling as a kid.

Way back when, I remember reading a story by Meltzer (or maybe I heard it on his audio show) about how during the "Attitude Era" some of the veterans in the WWF locker room like The Undertaker and JBL were getting annoyed by the newer generations of guys coming up - specifically guys like Edge & Christian and The Hardys because they were "marks" before they became Pro Wrestlers.  The gist was that guys who grew up as hardcore fans took too many risks and made the job harder for everybody - and also that they were too nice to the fans.

[gordi]

I think that AEW is using Janela pretty well. He's more or less a JTTS for them. He's a guy who bumps well, can take a nasty beating, and is willing to risk his neck for a big spot. He seems to be getting used as a big-heart underdog who takes a beating, bumps all over, and gets a couple of big crazy spots in. He's not as good in that role as Darby Allin, but I think there is a role for a guy like him in most promotions and AEW in particular seems to like underdog babyfaces who bump like crazy. I've enjoyed Janela quite a bit so far, to be honest, but it could be a glass-half-full/glass half empty situation. He certainly works hard to put the other guy over. That's a quality I appreciate, and another point in his favor as a (very) poor man's Foley.

That being said, his "high roundhouse kick" in the Mox match was truly dire.

There are a few guys on the AEW roster who could stand to improve their striking. And Dustin Rhodes is right there. He should hold a clinic or something. Private Party could sit in the front row, beside Janela.

[PeteF3]

28 minutes ago, Matt D said:

That made me look up Bam Bam Bigelow, who was another guy who shot himself in the foot early, and yep, he hated pro wrestling as a kid.

In terms of guys not growing up fans who became true students of the game: Brian Pillman. He went to a Sheik show in Cincinnati once, but wasn't into wrestling until it opened up as a career option when he was playing football in Calgary. A few years later and he's reading up on Ray Stevens and begging Meltzer to find him footage to study. Personal life and car wreck notwithstanding, Pillman certainly seemed to play the political game better than many others with his background.

[Matt D]

1 minute ago, PeteF3 said:

In terms of guys not growing up fans who became true students of the game: Brian Pillman. He went to a Sheik show in Cincinnati once, but wasn't into wrestling until it opened up as a career option when he was playing football in Calgary. A few years later and he's reading up on Ray Stevens and begging Meltzer to find him footage to study. Personal life and car wreck notwithstanding, Pillman certainly seemed to play the political game better than many others with his background.

I wonder if he had any luck because there's basically no Ray Stevens footage out there that's worth watching.