WWE TV 03/11 - 03/17: Exposing civilians by fabricating lies

[The Thread Killer]

4 hours ago, Mrzfn said:

Surely nothing Orton does in 2019 is gonna top his actual career best match with Foley 15 years ago?

I hear you on that, 100%. I put that Orton/Foley match and the Edge/Foley WM match in the same category.  Matches that could have and probably should have sucked, if not for extensive work being done laying out the match ahead of time, plenty of gimmicks (fire, thumbtacks, etc.) and most importantly, as much as I don't like him - Mick Foley's willingness to pretty much kill himself to pull an entertaining match out of somebody.  Maybe this is unfair, but to me Foley gets all the credit for that match.

[KawadaSmile]

Also worth mentioning that Cena/Orton at HiaC 2014 and their Ironman Match were really fucking dope.

AJ had a blast of a 2017, and while he didn't really had a bad 2018, he had very few sky-high matches. I actually liked his feud with Bryan, and the LMS against Nakamura was a good final chapter to what was otherwise an unremarkable feud.

I think having a time off the WWE Title picture can bring new things to the table for him. I remember that Y2AJ/New Day match in 2016 being fantastic, so it's not like he can't be a good tag player for a while. Maybe the Orton feud can kickstart that shift.

[SomethingSavage]

2 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

Also worth mentioning that Cena/Orton at HiaC 2014 and their Ironman Match were really fucking dope.

I remember being pleasantly surprised by that Orton/Cena HiaC match in the moment, and nobody talks about it. It came at a time when the booking seemed to indicate that we'd get Brock/Cena in the cell, and I remember feeling letdown when it was announced that we'd see another Orton match instead.

I've gone back and watched it a couple of times since then. It doesn't hold up as well as I'd hoped, but the finish is still pretty dope. The match is mainly unspectacular, but it's solid and one of the better outings from that pairing in awhile.

Oh. But the pre-match hype video is what makes it. That thing's fucking aces. They draw comparisons to the great, memorable sports rivalries in history. And while actual reality doesn't necessarily place Cena/Orton in that same rarified air, you could be convinced by the buildup video. It does a fine job of selling the idea and letting you buy in.

Their late 2013/early 2014 series did nothing for me.

I liked their 2009 a lot - probably more than most. The I Quit match from Breaking Point emphasized story, structure, and character over action and movez. And the final product was all the better for it. Just a fun, fascinating character study of a pro rasslin babyface versus a heel. Cena endures torment and torture the entire match and never surrenders. But Orton gets caught and cornered - and with that shoulder getting tested - he taps instantly. Like a bitch. It's wonderful.

I mean, I know we were talking AJ, but yeah. He's awesome in gimmick matches, too. So I actually wouldn't mind seeing Styles and Orton paired up in an I Quit or LMS setting before this thing is settled. I know the standard WWE booking strategy of endless rematches is tired and unoriginal, but ya know we're getting it. Might as well liven it up with stipulations.

[El-P]

Cena vs Orton is the paragon of black hole late 00's WWE main event style. Most boring big match pairing ever to me. I could never get into that stuff when I kinda looked back at those lost years.

Actually, I take back what I said about AJ vs Orton. I mean, Randy Orton… Can't we get AJ vs Braun ?

[SomethingSavage]

Braun feels cold as ice. Sad to say it, but the dude feels like a total non-entity these days.

[Coffey]

10 minutes ago, SomethingSavage said:

Braun feels cold as ice. Sad to say it, but the dude feels like a total non-entity these days.

This is how I feel about 90% of the main roster. WWE as a whole feels cold. They don't feel like they have any stars. They have some people that I enjoy watching, like Daniel Bryan, but they don't have any larger-than-life guys. Even Brock doesn't really feel special anymore. He should. Batista came back & he should, but he doesn't. Roman just came back & it's like he never left. It's a weird timeline. 

[sek69]

The guy who accused Roman of buying steroids ended up being the one who derailed Braun's career. WWE kept him on ice in case the claims were legit and Roman needed to be pulled for Mania, and when it was clear they were bogus it was too late to do anything with him and we ended up with the Nicholas stuff.  Once that happened, the shine was gone and he became another start-and-stop guy.

[SomethingSavage]

The Corbin feud was the final nail for him. It was clear he wasn't recovering after the loss to Brock at the second Saudi show though.

What a waste. Braun (well, Braun plus Joe promos) brought me back to WWE temporarily. They felt like they had hot, believable opponents for Brock. And it seemed like they literally couldn't wait to undo that.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I liked how over Braun got really fast after being in the Wyatt Family, but first time I saw him struggle through a singles match that was longer than 10 minutes I knew he was gonna be an attraction guy. At least for the time being.

[NintendoLogic]

There's only so much you can do with a giant who can't work long singles matches. Having him run through everybody would get old in hurry, and having him work competitive matches on a regular basis kills his aura. Guys like Braun work best as special attractions.

[DMJ]

While I agree with the above sentiment, I think even the biggest pessimist about Braun's ability to be a top guy would have to admit that when they say "There's only so much you can do with a giant who can't work long singles matches," what the WWE has done with him has been far short of ideal. I mean, I'd argue that The Giant in 94'/95' - hell, I'll say through his whole WCW run - was a more limited worker than Braun and was utilized far better. Sure, there was some utter crap in those years (Halloween Havoc 95', obvi), but I also remember some Nitro and PPV matches against Hogan, Sting, Luger, Flair, and later, against the nWo, that - while not "mat classics," got big reactions from the live crowds and felt like big matches. 

I know, I know - the late 90s is a much different time than 2019 and the fans expect more. But we've seen Braun have some good matches against Reigns, Sami Zayn, and even Big Show. I don't think its hard to imagine him having good matches against AJ, Bryan, Rey, Andrade, Ricochet, Mustafa Ali, Jeff Hardy....The WWE roster is pretty deep with talent. The best they could do for the past 4 months was Braun vs. Corbin?

[FMKK]

It's fair to say that Braun should be a limited use special attraction type. But you need to shine him up really good so that he's a made man before you can transition him into that sort of character imo. They teased him being around the title for so long without ever pulling the trigger that he just looks like someone you can't buy as the top guy. All they needed to do was give him his big win over Brock, run him with the title for four or five months and then he's a made guy. As it stands, he was on the bubble for too long without ever getting over the line that anything he does feels like a disappointment because that promise was never fulfilled. That being said, although he was a victim of circumstance in some ways, I feel like he was salvageable right up until about autumn 2018 when he unnecessarily turned heel and back in a few weeks and then jobbed out to Brock in the Saudi show.

 

He needs to go to Smackdown and go back to being a monster heel after Mania if they're really considering doing anything with him. Him bullying Rey, Jeff, Ali, AJ and Kofi could revitalise the act.

[Blehschmidt]

The problem with Braun is the problem with all of WWE.

How can you expect them to book a guy as something special, when no one on the roster is booked as anything special. (Unless your a part timer or a McMahon.)

The brand is the star, Remember. They wanted interchangable cogs and they've got them. 

[Alucard]

I was sick of Braun once they had him run through everybody at Survivor Series 2017 and Chamber 2018, the act just felt tired by that point.

[Stiva]

With hindsight, he was done when Brock didn't put him over in late 2017. That was the time. 

[sek69]

We should make a list of people who got their momentum derailed because Brock had to be kept strong. I know Vince has a fear of creating the impression WWE is losing guys, but at the end of the day he basically was shoveling money in the furnace just to keep Brock. 

[Strummer]

I think it should be noted that with all the injuries and people being gone, Braun has headlined a good amount of house shows since the end of last year.  I do wonder if that's at least part of the reason live attendance is down with a cold character who has been hurt time and time by creative in a headlining position. In fairness he's been in there with Corbin in a stale program but I think it's worth pointing out

[SomethingSavage]

On 3/15/2019 at 12:03 AM, NintendoLogic said:

There's only so much you can do with a giant who can't work long singles matches. Having him run through everybody would get old in hurry, and having him work competitive matches on a regular basis kills his aura. Guys like Braun work best as special attractions.

Where is the line when it comes to that thinking? When does that cautionary booking stop being beneficial and start being detrimental?

Do we avoid putting the belt on Steve Austin in 98 because his neck is busted & he's on borrowed time? Do we sidestep John Cena in 2005 because he's clunky and still noticeably green? Do we derail Jeff Hardy in 2009 because he may happen upon a drug den?

For real. Sometimes you go with a hot hand, simply because it's hot. I dislike a lot of things about modern WWE, but that mentality ranks among the very worst.

Stop searching for reasons NOT to go with an over act. Because you'll always find faults when that's what you're seeking.

Look at Bill Goldberg for the ideal scenario of a green guy who gets over. You strap the rocket to him. You push him to the moon. You pair him with the right guys along the way. And you hope like hell he adapts and improves.

But you ride that momentum until the wheels fall off. You don't stall him out at stage one to teach him. Because it saps his credibility and slows him to a halt.

That's what they've done with Braun. They've effectively repeated the same mistakes they made with Ryback once he caught on.

When something catches on & gets over, people will overlook flaws in "work rate" and athleticism. It isn't necessary for everyone to work a lengthy fucking five-star match.

The name of the game is to get over. If good matches are what get a guy over, then okay. That's fine. But it's a device. Just like interviews. Promos. Cool gear. Awe-inspiring entrances. An endearing back story. Whatever.

Great matches are NOT the endgame. They are a device to get over. Stop pretending that it's the end-all, be-all. Because that's what leads to this shitty state of storytelling the entire business is stuck in right now.

Braun not being able to have long matches of 5-star quality doesn't make him any less valuable a commodity. For fuck's sake. He was OVER. That is literally his value right there. That is currency is pro wrestling, people. Nothing else matters.

No. Not even great matches, which are as commonplace as the ring ropes on any wrestling show these days anyway.

And it's also ass backwards that anyone would look at a monster like Braun and say. "Yeah. But can he work an Iron Man Match?" or whateverthefuck.

Hey. Hey there. This shit's fake, y'all. They can literally create ANY scenario they want around his matches. He can have garbage brawls. Violent spectacles. Short, powerful sprints. WHATEVER.

But any decent booker would spot these hurdles and offer up easy solutions. And any reasonable promoter would recognize the value in an act that's over & realize they should play to his strengths - rather than try to fit a square peg into a late 70s NWA Champion sized hole.

For fuck's sake.

On 3/15/2019 at 10:28 AM, Blehschmidt said:

The problem with Braun is the problem with all of WWE.

How can you expect them to book a guy as something special, when no one on the roster is booked as anything special. (Unless your a part timer or a McMahon.)

The brand is the star, Remember. They wanted interchangable cogs and they've got them. 

This. Exactly this.

The first guy to take off automatically wins the race, because everyone on their roster is running in place.

[NintendoLogic]

The difference is that 1998 Austin and 2005 Cena had significant measurable impacts on business. If Braun is drawing like Goldberg, then by all means give him the Goldberg push. But I've seen no evidence of him being a significant mover of ratings, attendance, merch sales, or really anything other than crowd pops. Granted, that's better than no reaction at all, but let's get real. He's a monster who performs superhuman feats of strength and has a monosyllabic catchphrase. It'd be alarming if he didn't get some kind of reaction. At some point, though, you have to deliver some steak to match the sizzle. Great matches may not be the end-all be-all, but in-ring ability is more important than it's ever been. Having him work garbage brawls all the time sounds great in theory, but what do you do when the injuries start piling up? He's already falling apart physically as it is. With all that said, he's obviously not being used to anywhere near his potential. Baron Corbin is this era's Kane: he's supposed to be this heel gatekeeper who gets vanquished by up-and-coming babyfaces, but everyone he feuds with ends up less over than they were beforehand.

[SomethingSavage]

5 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

With all that said, he's obviously not being used to anywhere near his potential.

Totally. And that's what I'm saying. Even with all the damage of bad booking, 2019 Braun isn't being used to his full potential. Rewind back to 2017 and the guy still had an actual shot of breaking through.

I'm not suggesting he was Goldberg over. But he was Ryback over. And, in today's landscape, that's about as good as it gets. No one in their system is permitted to stand out. So they should treat it like God's gift anytime someone actually gets over on their watch.

Just how much "measurable success" can a Braun or a Ryback expect to have if they're cut off at the knees before they're ever actually allowed to run with the ball in the first place?

Braun got over as a monster & a killer performing feats of strength. So keep doing that. It's irrational to step back and wonder, "But what if he needed to wrestle a 45 minute clinic??"

Nobody cares. And nobody is calling to see that shit anyway. Dude was over based on what he COULD do. Fuck what he can't. That's nonsense.

"Great" matches aren't even great without narrative anyway. We have all these supposedly classic 5-star matches happening today that won't stand out one bit with a little distance & time. Because they're just hollow matches. With no narrative. Without context. Without meaning or emotional attachment. There's no reason for anyone outside the bubble to give a fuck or recall a single thing about them.

Getting over is the struggle. That's the goal. If Braun could do that without having to fit some traditional template or mold, then that's fine.

[Captain Redneck]

The thing with Braun is that he's pretty athletic for a man his size. He can work a different style depending on the opponent. Braun would have been raking in the money if he was around during the territories.