Dark Side of the Ring

[cactus]

These guys have knocked it out the park with season 2 so far. The Brawl For All episode almost made the actual tournament look compelling. I didn't mind the Russo and Cornette conflict. I find it baffling why they didn't do anything with Bart Gunn once the tournament was over. I'm sure he would of never been a top guy, but that win did wonders for his reputation after years of being the worst member of the Smoking Gunns.

[Stiva]

As said, not using Bart Gunn is a perfect example of Vince throwing his toys out of the pram because the world hasn't bent to his will. I thought this was a solid episode; Gunn comes off as a solid dude who just happened to punch hard enough to kill most men but my biggest question coming out of it all was: Does Godfather smoke weed?

[gordi]

That episode was a lot more entertaining and compelling than the actual tournament.

[ButchReedMark]

The Cornette vs Russo stuff took me out of it. I could happily never hear from those two on each other again. They need to just fuck and get it out of the way. 

[William Bologna]

Yeah, I didn't find the Cornette/Russo stuff too bad in the Montreal episode, but it was a bit much this time. It wasn't the best use of their talent.

• Jim Ross turns into a complete idiot when discussing Steve Williams.
• Jim Cornette turns into a maniac when discussing Russo.
• Vince Russo should never be spoken to.

So no one was at their best. 

Bart Gunn looks like 90s Bart Gunn with aging makeup. I'd have thought it was fake if I didn't know he was that old.

[C.S.]

10 hours ago, sek69 said:

Well it was pretty well balanced I thought. 

Sure, if the episode was supposed about Russo and Cornette. Unfortunately for them, it was about the Montreal Screwjob. Yet, their unwelcome and mostly unrelated pissing contest took up the last 20 minutes of the broadcast.

[sek69]

1 hour ago, C.S. said:

Sure, if the episode was supposed about Russo and Cornette. Unfortunately for them, it was about the Montreal Screwjob. Yet, their unwelcome and mostly unrelated pissing contest took up the last 20 minutes of the broadcast.

I was talking about the Brawl for All episode, it seemed like they learned their lesson from that and made sure this one let both guys make their points without it totally breaking down into watching old men piss on each other's faces. 

Also Godfather might be becoming my favorite person in wrestling. I love how he just was all "yeah that was my fault, I totally didn't take Bart serious and my wife got pissed at me".  It's refreshing to see a guy who so fully enjoyed his time in wrestling (outside of being in this tournament of course). 

It was also nice to see Droz doing pretty well all things considered, his story was so suddenly tragic and nothing else was ever heard about him. 

[Slasher]

Finally saw the Brawl for All episode, and it was definitely balanced between Russo and Cornette, but it was interesting that Russo was focused on talking about the situation whereas Cornette seemed more interested in badmouthing Russo than anything else.

[The Thread Killer]

Conrad Thompson did a podcast with the producers of the Dark Side of the Ring today.  Turns out, they filmed a lot of content for the Brawl for All episode last year, including the interviews with Russo and Cornette...but then their episode order got cut from 10 to 6, so they decided to put a lot of the stuff between Russo and Cornette into the Montreal Screwjob episode, where it had not been originally intended.  They really wanted to use a lot of the footage because they thought it was good TV, but didn't know if they'd have the chance to use it otherwise.  That makes a lot of sense now, because at the time the Russo/Cornette stuff seemed kind of pointless and shoehorned into the Montreal episode.  Turns out it was originally intended for this episode, where it makes a bit more sense.

[Robert S]

14 hours ago, William Bologna said:

Yeah, I didn't find the Cornette/Russo stuff too bad in the Montreal episode, but it was a bit much this time. It wasn't the best use of their talent.

• Jim Ross turns into a complete idiot when discussing Steve Williams.
• Jim Cornette turns into a maniac when discussing Russo.
• Vince Russo should never be spoken to.

So no one was at their best. 

Bart Gunn looks like 90s Bart Gunn with aging makeup. I'd have thought it was fake if I didn't know he was that old.

The sad thing is that Russo was the only one talking sense when speaking about Dr. Death. He was a broken down guy at the tail end of his career (without a big name on the national stage) who would at best have been a one-off opponent for Austin and a lot of other guys would have drawn the same in his place (and would have profited from it in the long run). I don't know in which universe that knockout cost WWF 5 million bucks (or whatever number Cornette was using).

[SirEdger]

I was a bit stunned at the prospect that WWF actually spent $5 million to sign Dr. Death around that time.

JR definitely had that emotional bias speaking about him because of the relationship he and Williams had. And Corny was just being Corny so it is what it is.

As much as I hate Russo, I found it fascinating to learn that the whole thing for him was about shutting up Bradshaw and hoping he'd get knocked out cold. And in hindsight, a booking idea that turned HORRIBLY wrong for everyone involved.

[The Thread Killer]

1 hour ago, SirEdger said:

As much as I hate Russo, I found it fascinating to learn that the whole thing for him was about shutting up Bradshaw and hoping he'd get knocked out cold. And in hindsight, a booking idea that turned HORRIBLY wrong for everyone involved.

If only Russo had known that if he wanted to see JBL get knocked out, all he had to do was get Vince McMahon to hire Joey Styles. Think of all the needless trouble that could have been avoided.

[MoS]

In hindsight, 1998 was so weak on main event heels. If he had won a shoot contest and then gone on to been managed by Vince against Austin, it would probably have done a good one-off buy. But I don't think he would have been a good long-term opponent and the fact that they would spend so much money on someone and then not even protect him in the ring is legitimately head-scratching.

[ButchReedMark]

I think Cornette meant cost 5million as in its money left on the table from there not being an Austin vs Dr Death feud now as Dr Death has just been knocked out by Bodacious Bart. 

 

Although I really can't see Dr Death being anything but a one and done on an In Your House even if he does win. Can you see 1998 neck Steve Austin taking much of Williams' offence?

[Boss Rock]

Brawl for All being an attempt to embarrass Bradshaw is tremendous pro wrestling carny stuff.

[C.S.]

Finally caught up on the New Jack and Russo/Cornette Brawl for All episodes.

My thoughts:

New Jack

• Gotta give Jerome Young this: if nothing else (and there really is nothing else), he is one charismatic motherfucker. Even when he does the most detestable things, you somehow want to like him. 
• Sandman bleeding like a pig in the next match "to take the heat off New Jack" after the Mass Transit incident encapsulates everything that's wrong with him, New Jack, ECW, and pro wrestling.  
• It was sad seeing New Jack (legit?) stabbing people in indie matches in front of no audience, with absolutely no "buzz" whatsoever generated by his criminal actions.

Not from the documentary, but some other related thoughts:

• Bob Ryder, Mike Johnson, and those types will never have any credibility with me because they bent over backward to defend ECW after the Mass Transit incident.
• Remember the scene in "Beyond the Mat" when New Jack tried to become an actor and the gay agent in the audition said he saw New Jack as the best friend type instead of the star? I always wondered what an alternate universe with Jerome Young as a Hollywood heavy or buddy in action or rom-com movies would look like.
• I was there for the infamous New Jack-Grimes match in ECW - in nosebleed seats, which made the rest of the show terrible but gave me a perfect view of the scaffold. The fall really was as nasty as it looked, and what you probably didn't see on TV was Tommy Dreamer coming out from the back to check on them - not at all shocking based on what we know now of his behind-the-scenes role throughout ECW's short history, but definitely eyebrow-raising and eye-opening at the time.

Russo-Cornette Brawl for All

• The Russo-Cornette bullshit was definitely much more balanced - and more relevant - in this episode than in the Montreal Screwjob episode from last season. Neither Russo or Cornette came off exactly great, but they didn't come off as badly as I expected either. I understand Russo thinking Cornette threatening violence over "just wrestling" is insane, but I also understand Corny being offended because wrestling is literally his entire life. With that said, violence is never the solution and printing out Russo's restraining order and selling it on t-shirts is the ultimate "rasslin' bubble" oblivion to the real world around him. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Russo > Cornette.
• Bart Gunn looks like a serial killer now. No judgment, just sayin'...
• I love The Godfather! Such a happy-go-lucky fun dude.
• If Russo wanted to humble the cocky bullying Bradshaw, just put him in a "Brawl for All" type of match against Dan Severn instead of designing an entire terrible tournament. There - problem solved!
• I'll be the Dr. Death Defense Force. He still mattered to me - remember, this was only a few years removed from his absolute powerhouse run with Terry Gordy in WCW - and I was very much looking forward seeing Doc mix it up and eventually face the other Steve Williams (Austin). Whether WWE lost five million on the deal is highly debatable and suspect, but they certainly didn't gain a damn thing from what did happen. Even if Williams wouldn't have been a main event star for years to come, I could easily envision a good 2-3-year run - like Ken Shamrock.
•  In the "After Dark" extra on the Roku app, Russo blamed himself 100% for not knowing how to use Bart Gunn after the Brawl for All and apologized for his own shortcomings. Russo rarely admits wrongdoing, so I thought that was notable. I guess this squelches the "J.R. was mad his boy lost" theory...or maybe not? I do find it suspicious that the rules and glove size changed to favor Butterbean at WM15.

[sek69]

1 minute ago, C.S. said:

 In the "After Dark" extra on the Roku app, Russo blamed himself 100% for not knowing how to use Bart Gunn after the Brawl for All and apologized for his own shortcomings. I guess this squelches the "J.R. was mad his boy lost" theory...or maybe not? I do find it suspicion that the rules and glove size changed to favor Butterbean at WM15.

Butterbean was 100% brought in to fuck Bart up. He even says so in he doc when he says he told Vince "you know I'm going to knock this guy out, right?" and Vince just smiles.  Dude was a legit trained boxer who got famous winning Toughman fights, being put in a shoot environment with a dude he outweighed by about 100 pounds is going to end with the same result 99 times out of 100. 

 

As far as Russo taking the blame for not using Bart, I get the impression even if he had come up with ideas it wouldn't have gone anywhere since Vince was pissed some jobber won the tournament set up to be the next program for Austin. Plus it's hard to argue that JR wasn't mad his boy lost when he's clearly still salty about it 20+ years later.

[C.S.]

36 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Butterbean was 100% brought in to fuck Bart up. He even says so in he doc when he says he told Vince "you know I'm going to knock this guy out, right?" and Vince just smiles.   

Which is pretty much everything that's wrong with WWE then and now.

As misguided as Brawl for All was, Bart winning was a genuine shocker and I was very interested to see what they'd do next with him - which ended up being a big fat nothing. A million people got hurt, and this company was still too petty and shortsighted to capitalize on making the new star handed to them in their laps.

I'm not saying Bart would have become the next ace of the company or anything like that, but they could've gotten a lot more mileage out of him.

36 minutes ago, sek69 said:

As far as Russo taking the blame for not using Bart, I get the impression even if he had come up with ideas it wouldn't have gone anywhere since Vince was pissed some jobber won the tournament set up to be the next program for Austin. Plus it's hard to argue that JR wasn't mad his boy lost when he's clearly still salty about it 20+ years later.

I can't really blame J.R. for being salty. It was such a shitty idea, and it effectively ended Steve Williams' WWE career. J.R. had to feel for his friend under those circumstances. That's why it kind of sucked when Williams showed up in WCW with Oklahoma character mocking J.R. Business is business and all that, but I'd personally value loyalty over business, especially when it's shitty business like that. 

[Dav'oh]

1 hour ago, C.S. said:

If Russo wanted to humble the cocky bullying Bradshaw

Cornette called bunkum on that on his podcast, saying 1998-Bradshaw was in no position to be a bully, due to his relative inexperience/place on the card, and the fact that the locker-room had Severn, Shamrock and a host of legit tough guys that wouldn't have tolerated his (alleged) cockiness.

[C.S.]

39 minutes ago, Dav'oh said:

Cornette called bunkum on that on his podcast, saying 1998-Bradshaw was in no position to be a bully, due to his relative inexperience/place on the card, and the fact that the locker-room had Severn, Shamrock and a host of legit tough guys that wouldn't have tolerated his (alleged) cockiness.

I was quoting Russo.

Cornette's word doesn't mean much to me though. He's a known carny prone to massive exaggeration, and one of many in the biz who defends bullying or looks the other way. Plus, JBL could still very well bully writers, referees, commentators, and others perceived as "lower on the totem pole."

Look at Orton, earlier in his career, whipping out his dick for a writer to "handshake."

 

[sek69]

I can 100% believe JBL, even then, was a bully to people lower on the card and/or in no position to retaliate considering it's what he's done his whole career. He didn't wake up one day in the mid 2000s and decide to start being an asshole. That kind of thing has been his MO forever.

Plus dude's no dummy, no way he'd try to talk shit to any of the folks that had legit backgrounds. That's not usually how bullies work.

[Dav'oh]

Fair enough, my "sniff test" on this is "can I imagine Bradshaw walking around saying how tough he is (which I believe was Russo's assertion) in that environment, with those guys around, and none of those guys putting him in his place?", and I think JBL is more savvy than that. To me he comes across as the sly, sycophantic type who would ingratiate himself with the tough kids and higher-ups, and know his place until a spot as a leading bully opened up.

[Loss]

The thing about the Brawl For All is that I'm not sure that most fans at the time fully got the whole, "This part of the show is real, but the rest is fake" dynamic because they never explicitly said it. For me, those segments were pretty much always a channel changer to Nitro just because I thought they were so incredibly boring.

[MoS]

Can someone who listens to Cornette's podcast summarise what Sullivan said about the Benoit episode and his version of events here? I have heard he held nothing back but I am really in no mood to listen to Corny and Last. 

[sek69]

15 minutes ago, Loss said:

The thing about the Brawl For All is that I'm not sure that most fans at the time fully got the whole, "This part of the show is real, but the rest is fake" dynamic because they never explicitly said it. For me, those segments were pretty much always a channel changer to Nitro just because I thought they were so incredibly boring.

That makes me wonder if it was the reason Russo went so hard on that very point when he'd do all those shooty shoot angles in WCW.