Dark Side of the Ring

[Loss]

That post sums it up well. People have always known that it's not real. What they haven't known (and some still don't, really) is what that entails. Is every aspect of it fake? Are the grudges themselves fake? Do moves ever hurt? Does someone decide who wins and loses every match or do the wrestlers just decide that themselves? I think there has always been general knowledge of it being fake, just not of how it works beyond that.

[Laz]

I think it was Jericho's first book where he talked about knowing it wasn't 100% legitimate as a kid, but he didn't know just how much of a work it was until he broke in. IIRC, he was under the impression that the top guys were there because they were the legitimate best and could draw money, but a lot of the undercard talents were actually competing. 

I remember thinking similarly when I was a kid, too. It didn't help that there was a TV special on ultimate fighting (I specifically remember that being the term used) where some of the fighters admitted to working until cops left before they fought for real.

[sek69]

Next show is going to be about Herb Abrams, which is the one I've been waiting for all season.

[El-P]

7 hours ago, Blehschmidt said:

I really think you are discounting the stupidity of white trash and rednecks here in the Good Old U.S. of A. who make up a very significant portion of the American fan base.

Well, can't counter that argument I guess when the president of the United States is Donald Trump.

About the point you're making though, there's probably a whole lot to say about Jim Cornette and SMW and why this stuff worked then because how where he promoted and how. 

[Zoo Enthusiast]

Damn, Eddy Mansfield is a tier 1 bullshitter.

[Dooley]

I guess I'm in the minority, but I thought the Schultz episode was one of the series' weakest offerings. The bullshit detectors were on high alert for every single person featured in the episode.

 

After watching it, YouTube recommended the Morton Downey jr. episode with Schultz, Jim Wilson, Thunderbolt Patterson, Lou Albano and others centered around the "real vs. fake" debate. That was headache inducing stuff.

[sek69]

Dr. D seemed like the most straightforward person though. He felt he had to do what he did to protect his livelihood and felt betrayed that his boss didn't have his back. Now you can fault him for expecting Vince to have any kind of loyalty that wasn't a top level star, but I never got the sense he was bullshitting at any point.  

[Loss]

It seems like they've covered a lot of the obvious topics in the first two seasons. I know the material is there but I have to wonder if they're going to struggle for ideas. Brawl For All, one of my favorite eps so far, still felt like a stretch because the story wasn't particularly "dark". But they can stretch the definition like that and probably do shows for years to come.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Candido/Tammy is right there for season three.

And Buck Zumhoff raping his daughter must be on the docket.

[SirEdger]

I assume they could also cover the Patera/Saito incident in season 3 as well

[Robert S]

1 hour ago, Johnny Sorrow said:

(...)

And Buck Zumhoff raping his daughter must be on the docket.

And there are also guys like Bruiser Bedlam. But these are more cases of horrible people who somehow are pro wrestlers. This show in most cases was about horrible stuff that happened within the pro wrestling world (with Dino Bravo being the only exception so far - even in Gino's case, his downfall was while he was an active wrestler and had lots of people of the pro wrestling world still around him).

[El-P]

4 hours ago, Johnny Sorrow said:

Candido/Tammy is right there for season three.

And Buck Zumhoff raping his daughter must be on the docket.

I'd watch a Candido/Tammy episode if only to remind people how great of a pro-wrestler Candido was. I guess Chyna could be an interesting case too. 

Zumhoff I'd have trouble watching honestly. A much more interesting episode to me would be Jerry Lawler's rape case. And Ashley Massaro.

Of course, WWE going to Saudi Arabia to get money from a criminal regime should be the most serious one.

[FMKK]

Getting to the bottom for the WWE flight delay in Saudi Arabia would be fascinating but unless Anderson and Gallows want to burn their bridges forever, it's probably too soon for anyone to want to go on record.

[Dooley]

14 hours ago, sek69 said:

Dr. D seemed like the most straightforward person though. He felt he had to do what he did to protect his livelihood and felt betrayed that his boss didn't have his back. Now you can fault him for expecting Vince to have any kind of loyalty that wasn't a top level star, but I never got the sense he was bullshitting at any point.  

Each his own. I found Schultz to be as carny as carny gets. It was an episode where it felt like EVERYONE involved was working the producers.

Here's the Morton Downey episode for anyone who hasn't had a migraine today:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wqK_HD0rps

[Cowboy Hats 4.0]

Would love the real scoop on Undertaker abducting Stephanie McMahon.

[Laz]

One I've seen elsewhere for a good S3 episode? XPW and Rob Black, in general. Not many active American promotions in the last 25 years can say they were formed by a scumbag pornographer that served jail time and also "allegedly" hired some goons to castrate a former talent.

[Al]

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2020 at 9:12 PM, Loss said:

That post sums it up well. People have always known that it's not real. What they haven't known (and some still don't, really) is what that entails. Is every aspect of it fake? Are the grudges themselves fake? Do moves ever hurt? Does someone decide who wins and loses every match or do the wrestlers just decide that themselves? I think there has always been general knowledge of it being fake, just not of how it works beyond that.

There's a show called Penn & Teller's Fool Us, where comedians come on and Penn and Teller have to figure out how they did the trick. There's every acknowledgement that magic is not real, people can not read minds, etc. But they won't reveal to the audience exactly how a trick was done. I think magic is extremely similar to wrestling in that the average viewer knows something is a work. But they are generally ignorant as to how it is performed. 

BTW, as far as that 33% believing wrestling is real, I've seen a depressingly high percentage of people buy into mediums. It would not tremendously surprise me.

[Loss]

I've also heard stories of actors and actresses who have played villains in famous roles being harassed in public, so it's not just limited to pro wrestling. Tony Goldwyn, Heather Locklear, and Anna Gunn have all discussed this off the top of my head.

[El-P]

8 minutes ago, Loss said:

I've also heard stories of actors and actresses who have played villains in famous roles being harassed in public, so it's not just limited to pro wrestling. Tony Goldwyn, Heather Locklear, and Anna Gunn have all discussed this off the top of my head.

That's actually a pretty good counter-argument. I highly doubt these people think movies are real... but they still harass those actors and actresses. I'd argue old-school rasslin' worked on the same level rather than "oh, back then people thought it was real".

[NintendoLogic]

There's a pretty big difference between harassment on the street and attempted stabbings and shootings, which a lot of old-school heels had to deal with.

[El-P]

I also believe the stabbing and shooting stories have been vastly overstated over the years by a generation of professional bullshiters. Not that it never occurred, but I would guess, like anything else, stuff like this happening a bunch of times became like "we worked 90 minutes matches in front of sell-out crowds every day and twice on Sunday". 

[CarpetCrawler]

2 hours ago, Loss said:

I've also heard stories of actors and actresses who have played villains in famous roles being harassed in public, so it's not just limited to pro wrestling. Tony Goldwyn, Heather Locklear, and Anna Gunn have all discussed this off the top of my head.

Susan Lucci got death threats almost constantly when she played Erica Kane on All My Children.  In fact as someone who considers myself more knowledgeable on retro television than pro wrestling, I will always argue that wrestling got NOTHING compared to the level of harassment, threats, and physical violence soap opera stars used to get from their fanbase.  When confronted about it, fans of the shows absolutely realize it's not real--but like in wrestling they admit to getting lost in the illusion.  To most people now-a-days it feels absurd to say it, but there was a period of the late 70s/early 80s were daytime soap operas absolutely dominated television, moreso than usual, which helped piggyback why nighttime soap operas dominated primetime as well.

RE: The Schultz Dark Side episode.  It was a good watch and Schultz is a very charismatic guy and by all accounts, is extremely likable when you talk to him outside of wrestling.  He's also a hell of a talent for promos so I was glad to see the documentary emphasized that the dude really did have some talent as a performer.  Getting John Stossel to appear was the real coup of the doc, and I was honestly surprised because I would've never thought he would've done anything for it.  He definitely walked away the villain of the piece, but I have to give some credit to the guy for being so open and blatant about how much of a carny he was for the entire ordeal, right down to how all the pain magically went away right when he received the money.  He outconned the conmen in such a showboat-y manner you'd think he was Vince McMahon himself.

As someone who studied that entire Mr. T incident very thoroughly a few years back, I very much believe everyone in this documentary was working like bonkers.  My gut: Schultz was trying to force an angle with T for at the least, after WrestleMania.  Him being mad at Mr. T about being left off the card of WrestleMania doesn't pass the laugh test (neither does the "I was blackballed by Vince!!" talking point because what promoter is going to even give Vince a listen in 1985. Schultz realized there was more money to be made being a bounty hunter, that's why he disappeared from the scene) considering he was already so far down the card by that point that he was doing 20 minute matches with guys like SD Jones and Jose Luis Rivera at the house shows.  The reason he lost to Inoki at the December 1984 MSG show was that he was a name for Inoki to beat that people could recognize that also wasn't going to have his status on the card affected by the loss since in Vince's eyes he was already on the way down anyway.  I think it was more that he realized he wasn't on the card for WrestleMania and he was looking to find a way to get himself back into the upper card scene.

Something that I never thought about until it was brought up by Jim Valley.  Mansfield started up his own wrestling company later on, and for all the talk about regulating wrestling, did his workers ever get insurance and benefits?

[C.S.]

6 hours ago, Loss said:

I've also heard stories of actors and actresses who have played villains in famous roles being harassed in public, so it's not just limited to pro wrestling. Tony Goldwyn, Heather Locklear, and Anna Gunn have all discussed this off the top of my head.

I've never watched Game of Thrones (spare me your fake shock, people), but didn't the kid who played Joffrey quit acting because fans took his villain role too seriously?

I know the same thing happened with Beverly Hills 90210 guest star Jamie Walters, who played Ray Pruitt - the guy who threw Donna down the stairs. (He eventually resurfaced for an episode of the ill-fated 90210 fake reality show reboot.)

[El-P]

7 hours ago, C.S. said:

I've never watched Game of Thrones (spare me your fake shock, people),

It's actually overrated as fuck-all. Not very good of you ask me. The first seasons are booked by Vince Russo. Lots of titties, women abused and treated like objects, mindless violence for shock value and *swerves* bro. Because people will never expect *that*. Gets marginally better for a while then the last season is akin to modern WWE in term of not giving a fuck. Gotta feel for all those girlies named Danae and shit by stupid parents, when they got to the last episode they be like... well, fuck me.

[ButchReedMark]

Really can't wait for tonight's. I'm amazed so little has been said or made about the UWF.