Mad Dog Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 I think they also have a severe content problem as well. Most people aren't going to sit through three hours of TV even if it's good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 2 hours ago, NintendoLogic said: They got Goldberg to do the Saudi show? I guess everybody really does have a price. To be honest, I'm more surprised that they would allow him into the country. No shit. I mean, Goldy, really ? Also, the idea that the product is gonna get magically good because they are doing surveys (yeah, our "beloved" Macron just did the same thing as a reaction to the severe social crisis happening these days, which led to "Well, your ideas suck, I'm gonna do what I want anyway" basically) and because they are gonna get on FOX is comical. The same inept crew of people will be at the helm. They can't book write for shit, they can't make a babyface, their production sucks (epillepsy warning should be obligatory), the announcing won't get any better, no magic star will be created from now to then (Stone Cold Becky was a nice little joke for a while), Ronda is trying to get pregnant so she won't be around, and the morale in the locker room apparently is pretty shitty if you think about all the people who want to leave and the pettiness ensuing. You know what's coming ? More Shan-o Mac, more Baron Corbin, more wasting Roman's emotional comeback (seriously, how the fuck do you fuck THAT up ?). Plus, if AEW does sign a big TV deal and debut roughly at the same time, the hype in the industry will be all about them, not cold-as-ice WWE moving TV station. Also, by gaining visibility by sheer virtue on being on FOX, maybe those wonderful Saudi shows will not be ignored as much, which could be an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 and what if the data collected doesn't jibe with Vince's views on the business? Will it be like Russo in WCW who just ignored the results and booked what he wanted anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 10 minutes ago, Strummer said: and what if the data collected doesn't jibe with Vince's views on the business? Will it be like Russo in WCW who just ignored the results and booked what he wanted anyway? More Sami Zayn promos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirEdger Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 I don't know really how it's gonna amount to anything. The problem is always the same: shitty creative and Vince having the last word on everything. If you talk to a brick wall, it's not gonna change anything (which is pretty much the equivalent when we talk about Vince). I genuinely thought that the return of Bruce Prichard would help in the sense that Bruce could talk him into changing gears a bit but it's same old, same old. I mean, if Road Dogg quit his lead writer on Smackdown (and as much as we gave him some flak on some stuff, Smackdown was still very enjoyable under his helm), I can't imagine how toxic the atmosphere must be backstage right now. Hell, I don't even know if any FOX threats would sway Vince into changing his product. He could always go the "Goddammit, I'll put Smackdown on the WWE Network instead, pal" route. He's that insane to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 There's a reason bookers normally cycle out after 5 years are so, even the greatest minds get burned out after enough time in the role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert S Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 3 hours ago, NintendoLogic said: They got Goldberg to do the Saudi show? I guess everybody really does have a price. To be honest, I'm more surprised that they would allow him into the country. Heyman was on the last show and they got the Daivaris in for the first show. It would be much worse if Goldberg had an Israeli passport (or the Daivari's Iranian ones) instead of an American one. A Qatari passport would probably also be a huge problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 What's odd is MBS (or some other prince) decide who's on these shows, which is why they tended to go so heavy in 90s-00s stars. I wouldn't have pegged anyone involved as potentially being a Goldberg fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pterois Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 Come on, not all muslims hate jewish people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 53 minutes ago, SirEdger said: I don't know really how it's gonna amount to anything. The problem is always the same: shitty creative and Vince having the last word on everything. If you talk to a brick wall, it's not gonna change anything (which is pretty much the equivalent when we talk about Vince). I genuinely thought that the return of Bruce Prichard would help in the sense that Bruce could talk him into changing gears a bit but it's same old, same old. I mean, if Road Dogg quit his lead writer on Smackdown (and as much as we gave him some flak on some stuff, Smackdown was still very enjoyable under his helm), I can't imagine how toxic the atmosphere must be backstage right now. Hell, I don't even know if any FOX threats would sway Vince into changing his product. He could always go the "Goddammit, I'll put Smackdown on the WWE Network instead, pal" route. He's that insane to do it. I think the biggest problem is that it's all filler now. 95% of WWE programming is there to eat time on a weekly basis. This used to lead to PPVs having the blow offs but now those are on the Network and not a revenue stream so they have also become filler. They don't know how to progress storylines or characters anymore. It doesn't matter if the heel loses because they will be right back on TV the next night in the same exact spot they were in before. There are no stakes to anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 26 minutes ago, Pterois said: Come on, not all muslims hate jewish people. Well of course not, but I can't imagine the ratio would be that good in the royal family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomethingSavage Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 8 hours ago, Charles (Loss) said: I'm ok with there being a lull right now. Better to have one now than in fall when it's critical that they get their act together. I expect them to be in a holding pattern until Summerslam. SummerSlam 2019, orrr..? This lull has lasted so long. I just feel like it's important to clarify. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 22 minutes ago, sek69 said: Well of course not, but I can't imagine the ratio would be that good in the royal family. And really, it's neither here nor there. It's well established now that MBS had a journalist killed and dismembered. You're going, you're working for him, basically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 If AEW ends up on a Turner station like it seems is going to happen, that along with the Fox deal should hopefully provide a much needed boot to Vince's ass to get motivated again. Honestly I'm not sure what else could it doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadaveri Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 40 minutes ago, sek69 said: Well of course not, but I can't imagine the ratio would be that good in the royal family. The Saudi leadership works with Israeli intelligence regularly and doesn't even hide it nowadays... trying not to go on a political tangent, just this idea they might not let Goldberg into the country out of hatred of Jewish people isn't based on reality. It's all geopolitical games, they couldn't care less about the religious background of some wrestler. But to the topic, thing is I think the cause of WWE's decline is so structural the only way I see it reversing is if AEW is really successful and suddenly Vince (assuming he's just gonna run the company forever) feels he needs to loosen the grip for WWE to stay profitable. The product is dire because they have no stars. They stopped trying to create them post-Cena when they realised they can now make money with WWE The Brand as the draw (or at least that was the idea) and not have to deal with wrestlers getting leverage over the company, which means pulling the rug under the feet of anyone who evers gets any serious momentum lest they get too big. There's no incentive to change that system so long as it still makes money, it's a safer bet than empowering their workers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 It's key to remember, WWF was in similar doldrums in the post Hogan years, and it wasn't until WCW was dunking on them regularly that they finally started making wholesale changes to the product in terms of presentation. Getting pressure from a competitor again might just be the thing the company needs to finally freshen up the look of both shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 WWE is a dinosaur. They are too set in their ways. RAW was 3 years old when Nitro showed up. It's been basically more or less the same presentation for nearly 20 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirEdger Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 I would say though that the mentality of Vince has changed in a way that while he did his best to sign the best talents he could, he didn't stockpile them just to be sure that the competition wouldn't have them, like he's currently doing at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 28 minutes ago, El-P said: WWE is a dinosaur. They are too set in their ways. RAW was 3 years old when Nitro showed up. It's been basically more or less the same presentation for nearly 20 years. The show was 3 years old, but it was just a continuation of how they presented their show from about 1988. Raw in 1995 and Raw in 1997 might as well be shows from two entirely different promotions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 He did that in the 1980s though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 I'd say change will come when Vince goes, but a lot of it is too baked in the cake now. And even then, the key angles that have been strong over the last several years have almost always been Vince concoctions as we discover after the fact. His batting average is much worse than it used to be, but his mind for booking is still probably better than HHH's in a lot of ways. What concerns me more than anything is that it's not like there are a lot of strong wrestling minds with great ideas who could come in and turn things around. Wrestling used to produce a lot more minds for this stuff than it seems to now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 Just now, Charles (Loss) said: I'd say change will come when Vince goes, but a lot of it is too baked in the cake now. And even then, the key angles that have been strong over the last several years have almost always been Vince concoctions as we discover after the fact. His batting average is much worse than it used to be, but his mind for this stuff is still probably better than HHH's in a lot of ways. What concerns me more than anything is that it's not like there are a lot of strong wrestling minds with great ideas who could come in and turn things around. Wrestling used to produce a lot more _minds_ for this stuff than it seems to now. I disagree with that. If you go to the indies, there are some great and creative things going on. Game Changer Wrestling is a great example of a promotion that is just stuffed with creativity and thought. I think the minds are there, they just aren't given a chance because WWE wants Hollywood writers. But I think if you brought in Super Dragon, Joey Janela and the Elite and told them to fix things and not interfere that you might see things improve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirEdger Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 Could it be because Vince has become too dependable on TV writers rather than wrestling people ? I mean, Vince could convey a certain idea and it could be interpreted differently, depending on if it's addressed to a TV writer or a wrestling-oriented guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 35 minutes ago, SirEdger said: Could it be because Vince has become too dependable on TV writers rather than wrestling people ? I mean, Vince could convey a certain idea and it could be interpreted differently, depending on if it's addressed to a TV writer or a wrestling-oriented guy. Things like overscripted promos are most likely the result of a bunch of TV writers trying to validate their existence, but the overall root cause lies at the top. When plans get thrown out last minute and shows don't get finished until minutes before airtime, it won't matter who's putting pen to paper. Bruce was brought in because he "speaks Vince" and is better than anyone at relaying what Vince wants to the creative team, but the question I have is does Vince even know what he wants anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 Wrestling no longer produces great minds because it's no longer an economic necessity. There weren't nearly as many revenue streams in the past, so everyone's livelihood depended on how many asses they could put in seats. In that kind of environment, you learn to sink or swim in a hurry. You can point to the indies, but how many 10,000 seat arenas are they selling out? Everybody's trying to extract as much revenue as possible from within the ever-shrinking wrestling bubble rather than trying to expand it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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