Mad Dog Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 He is and he's exactly the type of guy their audience would want. Looking at their roster, they have 8 people that did serious time with WWE. That's really a very small segment of their roster. I'm not going to worry about it until they are throwing money at every single person the WWE releases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herodes Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 Most fans never thought Tye Dillinger was underutilized. In fact they just never thought about him at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Herodes said: Most fans never thought Tye Dillinger was underutilized. In fact they just never thought about him at all. I know your message board gimmick is to be miserable and negative, so I'm not even sure why I'm responding, but listen to the massive pop he got for his first Royal Rumble or the rabid "TEN" chants he got in NXT and then tell me with a straight face that the fans didn't think about him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herodes Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 I’ve seen the ECW mutants, the ROHbots, New Japan culters, even TNA has blind followers...it’s not a “gimmick”, I’ve just seen it all before.This group hasnt even run more ppvs than the infamous 1996 CWA Dallas “Bodyguards and Bandits” which also had their own Jebailey. But I am very interested in the cult of fandom from a sociological perspective and it’s wider parallels in society but will keep this pro wrestling ONLY. As for Tye I genuinely have nothing else to say about him, he was just...there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 No one here is a blind follower, and your opinion on Shawn Spears does not make it gospel. I don't like Samoa Joe (I think he's slow and boring), but I'd still hire him and push him because he's obviously someone a lot of people do like and someone who can be an asset to any fed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted July 26, 2019 Report Share Posted July 26, 2019 I have thoughts about the Librarians... Way too many thoughts. I have feelings about gimmick wrestlers and what makes a great character and how that can differ from a great 'wrestling' character. For example, the Million Dollar Man is a great character because who can't write for an evil rich asshole? But how does an evil rich asshole wrestle? That's a different story and I think the gimmick fails in that metric as opposed to say Lord Steven Regal who was an uptight British dickhead and wrestled the way you'd imagine with lots of fancy technical stuff and a lot of disdain. The Librarian concept really fails both of those tests because who has strong feelings about Librarians enough to want to fight them? And if a Librarian wanted to fight you, what that would look like would be really unclear in your mental movie. Regardless, it could work in some regards if really drilled into and produced in a way that worked to the talent. Bates seems horribly miscast in the role as undercard gimmick heel. She's uncommitted to the bit and so she overuses the basic trappings of what the gimmick could be by going to the shush way too much to be effective. She doesn't seem to interact with the crowd very well and that's really what the role needs. It needs the crowd to hook in and She's almost cheeky in acting like she's above the material. Avalon is better in the role than Bates by a mile. He is hurt by the current style of the promotion of back-and-forth and should instead be doing lots of shine for babyface to start, do a heat segment and go into the finish. He should not be trading spots and momentum because that's for 'good wrestlers' and that is not what this role calls for. I think he'd be better off stooging and stalling and yelling at the crowd to be quiet than working for star ratings. He's suitably annoying looking and I like his facial expressions. If they got some good introduction 'music' for him, he would do well interrupting people and getting smashed in response. He should probably be working in non traditional gear in order to fit the character rather than tights and a robe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted July 26, 2019 Report Share Posted July 26, 2019 Shawn Spears is about where I thought Cody was when he left WWE. Competent but not mind blowing guy who would benefit from a change in scenery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted July 26, 2019 Report Share Posted July 26, 2019 10 minutes ago, Goodear said: I have thoughts about the Librarians... Way too many thoughts. I have feelings about gimmick wrestlers and what makes a great character and how that can differ from a great 'wrestling' character. For example, the Million Dollar Man is a great character because who can't write for an evil rich asshole? But how does an evil rich asshole wrestle? That's a different story and I think the gimmick fails in that metric as opposed to say Lord Steven Regal who was an uptight British dickhead and wrestled the way you'd imagine with lots of fancy technical stuff and a lot of disdain. The Librarian concept really fails both of those tests because who has strong feelings about Librarians enough to want to fight them? And if a Librarian wanted to fight you, what that would look like would be really unclear in your mental movie. Regardless, it could work in some regards if really drilled into and produced in a way that worked to the talent. Bates seems horribly miscast in the role as undercard gimmick heel. She's uncommitted to the bit and so she overuses the basic trappings of what the gimmick could be by going to the shush way too much to be effective. She doesn't seem to interact with the crowd very well and that's really what the role needs. It needs the crowd to hook in and She's almost cheeky in acting like she's above the material. Avalon is better in the role than Bates by a mile. He is hurt by the current style of the promotion of back-and-forth and should instead be doing lots of shine for babyface to start, do a heat segment and go into the finish. He should not be trading spots and momentum because that's for 'good wrestlers' and that is not what this role calls for. I think he'd be better off stooging and stalling and yelling at the crowd to be quiet than working for star ratings. He's suitably annoying looking and I like his facial expressions. If they got some good introduction 'music' for him, he would do well interrupting people and getting smashed in response. He should probably be working in non traditional gear in order to fit the character rather than tights and a robe. You realize the Librarians is actually a pastiche of bad gimmicks imposed on workers by offices ? It is designed to be bad and stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted July 26, 2019 Report Share Posted July 26, 2019 But why is AEW portraying itself as a heel promotion if that's the case? Haven't we had enough of that with all the reliance on evil authority figures in WWE and elsewhere? I'm also not sure what the target of the satire is--circa 1995 WWF occupational gimmicks? Is that a thing that was really begging to be taken down a peg in 2019? It seems slightly less up-to-date than Bill Clinton cigar jokes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted July 26, 2019 Report Share Posted July 26, 2019 it is a JOKE. You all are WAYYYY overthinking this. No one is taking AEW for a heel promotion because of the librarians. There's no authority figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted July 26, 2019 Report Share Posted July 26, 2019 So the joke is this gimmick sucks so we are going to intentionally put out something that sucks. Hilarious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted July 26, 2019 Report Share Posted July 26, 2019 It's a pastiche. The pastiche itself doesn't suck. It's ok. It's quite funny at times, like when they do the "it's real good shit" bit on BTE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted July 26, 2019 Report Share Posted July 26, 2019 So its supposed in the spirit of Southpaw Regional Wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 26, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2019 4 hours ago, El-P said: You realize the Librarians is actually a pastiche of bad gimmicks imposed on workers by offices ? It is designed to be bad and stupid. I haven't heard anyone but you defend this Librarian nonsense. You dismiss valid criticisms of the gimmick. If the company is committed to the gimmick... then commit to the gimmick itself, not to a bad shooty backstage "idea of the gimmick" booking nonsense. On one hand, you have MJF who lives the gimmick 24/7, acts the same way off screen as he does on screen. You have Moxley who comes in like a mad dog to prove he can wrestle and wasn't the guy he was forced to be in WWE. You have Luchasaurus and Jungle Boy as a tag team with a gimmick that doesn't seem forced even though it is hokey as hell. I mean, a dinosaur with a masters degree? Yet, nobody is complaining about that. Everyone is hyping these guys up and rightfully so. The biggest gripes so far online (here, DVDVR, reddit, Meltzer) I have seen revolve around the Librarians and the Dark Order. It isn't because they can't wrestle but because people look at it as hokey shit that makes it impossible to get behind. Almost all of the criticisms of wrestling deal with acts that are bad and stupid. You watched TNA. You saw bad and stupid. You watched ECW and old WCW. They had bad and stupid on their shows also. They got criticized. The Librarians and Dark Order gimmicks as they currently stand are bad and stupid. I wasn't aware that the people rooting for AEW to succeed wanted bad and stupid in their wrestling product. You call it pastiche but it isn't really celebrating anything. Plus, if you really want to celebrate the gimmick... then commit to the gimmick 100%. Avalon and Bates need to change their gear, their hairstyles, their mannerisms, and their wrestling style to reflect the gimmick. THAT would be celebrating it. That would be pastiche. A bad gimmick that the performers fully embrace and forces the crowd to get behind. It's actually one of my biggest gripes with AEW as it stands. Eventually, AEW is going to have to decide what they want their identity to be. Do they want to be the new cutting edge wrestling company that brings back old fans while creating new ones? Do they want to be the company that devotes itself to insiders and a small, loyal fanbase? Do they want to embrace the best AND worst parts of wrestling history? On one hand, you have Tony Khan saying he wants wins and losses to matter and a show inspired by old Mid South wrestling. On the other hand, you have this weird hybrid of kayfabe/this isn't real/ it's all tongue in cheek conflict on their BTE program. On the one hand, you have Brandi Rhodes throwing shade at WWE. On the other hand, she goes out and makes all the same mistakes that Stephanie McMahon makes on camera. On one hand, wrestling matters and should be taken seriously. On the other, it doesn't and we have this comedy hardcore match to show you. I know these guys don't hate each other but I want them to act like they do. But I want them to act like they do. I know that Bates and avalon aren't Librarians... but I want them to act like Librarians. I know the Dark Order aren't evil... and aren't capable of pulling off evil... so they should scrap the current gimmick completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted July 26, 2019 Report Share Posted July 26, 2019 45 minutes ago, goodhelmet said: I haven't heard anyone but you defend this Librarian nonsense. It's lonely at the top. 45 minutes ago, goodhelmet said: You dismiss valid criticisms of the gimmick. No. I dismiss people acting like this is any kind of a big deal when it's all... a joke. It's unimportant. I find it kinda baffling that people are focusing so much on this stuff like it needed deep thought out analysis and shit. It doesn't. People are way overthinking this stuff, really. You can have a company where wins and losses matter and championships are big deals and have some comedy thrown into without fans spinning on their head because it's too damn confusing. NJPW says hello. Maybe japanese fans are just smarter after all, they don't get confused so easily and don't need things to be so strictly drawn and defined. If a little joke on the undercard confuse and anger people so much, I have no idea what to tell them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted July 26, 2019 Report Share Posted July 26, 2019 44 minutes ago, goodhelmet said: You watched TNA. You saw bad and stupid. You watched ECW and old WCW. They had bad and stupid on their shows also. They got criticized. The Librarians and Dark Order gimmicks as they currently stand are bad and stupid. The Librarians are a pastiche of bad and stupid. I'm not even saying it's a great one and it's hilarious. It's ok. It's funny on occasion. It's mostly unimportant. It's a non-factor in the grand scheme of things. The Dark Order, now, that is a poor gimmick and they should revamp their presentation of that team, which seem really good in the ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted July 26, 2019 Report Share Posted July 26, 2019 Mae Young giving birth to a hand was also a joke. People still talk about it & insult it years later. Wrestlecrap is Wrestlecrap, straight up. Regardless of the letters of the name of the promotion. Shit is shit. The librarians are shit. Doesn't matter if it's supposed to be a joke. Still shit. Just shit that's supposed to be a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 26, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2019 15 minutes ago, El-P said: It's lonely at the top. No. I dismiss people acting like this is any kind of a big deal when it's all... a joke. It's unimportant. I find it kinda baffling that people are focusing so much on this stuff like it needed deep thought out analysis and shit. It doesn't. People are way overthinking this stuff, really. You can have a company where wins and losses matter and championships are big deals and have some comedy thrown into without fans spinning on their head because it's too damn confusing. NJPW says hello. Maybe japanese fans are just smarter after all, they don't get confused so easily and don't need things to be so strictly drawn and defined. If a little joke on the undercard confuse and anger people so much, I have no idea what to tell them... I agree that it is unimportant as a standalone bad gimmick. However, combined with the Dark Order, the Nakazawa match, parts of the gimmick battle royale... it forms a picture that says we will embrace the worst of wrestling as much as the good stuff. That is what is concerning. Hell, as mentioned already, it wouldn't even be bad if Bates and Avalon actually embraced it fully and looked and acted the part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted July 26, 2019 Report Share Posted July 26, 2019 21 minutes ago, goodhelmet said: I agree that it is unimportant as a standalone bad gimmick. However, combined with the Dark Order, the Nakazawa match, parts of the gimmick battle royale... it forms a picture that says we will embrace the worst of wrestling as much as the good stuff. That is what is concerning. Hell, as mentioned already, it wouldn't even be bad if Bates and Avalon actually embraced it fully and looked and acted the part. The Battle Royal (when did this become a "gimmick battle royal" BTW ?) was fun. The Micheal Nakazawa stuff was fun for what it was. I have no issue with that. I sure hope we get some none serious stuff from AEW too, because I wouldn't want everyone on there acting like they do on those very personal promos and personality profile you see on the Road to episodes. They are all very good, but at some point, I kinda want more than a bunch of *human beings* in this promotion. I sure hope Allie is gonna go batshit crazy like she does at some point. I want a Salina de la Renta summoning a demon luchador. Win and loss mattering doesn't mean, I sure hope, that AEW is gonna be "pure sport" approach, which is a reason why I never ever was interested in checking out ROH (although I know it wasn't always the case and there were characters there too, but still). That's why I don't really care if they do some batshit comedy matches and have some campy gimmicks, especially in a meta way because that's the way to do it with this generation. As far as Peter Avalon goes, I dunno, I never was bothered by the whole gimmick during Fyter Fest. Since it was the first time I saw him work, my focus went into two directions : Peter Avalon looks like a decent enough worker; Sonny Kiss looked better in Lucha Underground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted July 26, 2019 Report Share Posted July 26, 2019 I think it's two separate issues: the Librarians are supposed to be a spoof on bad gimmicks and they don't really do enough during the actual shows to emphasize that to people who don't follow the YouTube stuff. It comes off tryhard and people who "know" the joke end up mad at the people who don't. The New Order on the other hand was supposed to be a serious heel group and it just didn't land, but because of things like the Librarian it creates a somewhat inaccurate impression of AEW being the land of bad gimmicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted July 26, 2019 Report Share Posted July 26, 2019 35 minutes ago, sek69 said: The New Order on the other hand was supposed to be a serious heel group Come on, Blue Monday is great. Even if you're a fan of Curtis, you can't deny some of the strongest singles once he left the faction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted July 26, 2019 Report Share Posted July 26, 2019 3 minutes ago, El-P said: Come on, Blue Monday is great. Even if you're a fan of Curtis, you can't deny some of the strongest singles once he left the faction. That gimmick is so unremarkable it took me several minutes to realize I got the name of the team wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted July 27, 2019 Report Share Posted July 27, 2019 Them coming out to Age of Consent would be a good start towards turning the gimmick around as far my liking them is concerned... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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