Dav'oh Posted February 13, 2021 Report Share Posted February 13, 2021 15 hours ago, Big Pete said: they treated their tag team as a joke and were losing matches because they were too busy making out, obviously playing it as a laugh Cheers cobber. I couldn't work out if you were down the "Ho-yay" aspect of the act, or that they started in a "comedy" promotion. As to the latter, everyone has to start somewhere, at least they were wrestling, and they had plenty of non-comedy matches. Do you know the joke that ends with the punchline, "...but you fuck ONE goat..."? Well, in this case, it's, "...but you wrestle ONE nine-year old girl...and a blow-up doll...maybe a box, too". They weren't no-nonsense Hansen and Gordy types. They were reunited "lovers" and having fun. And they couldn't ignore their at-times comedic background. They got serious when they needed to, but laughter is a big part of love, too. As for ho-yay...I dunno. Yes, I had to look it up, but if the Golden Lovers were "homoeroticism - yay!", then pro-wrestling itself must be acknowledged as "ho-shhhh!" ("homoeroticism? - shhhhh!). I probably have more of an issue with the latter than I do with the former. I only followed the Lovers story from a distance and didn't see everything they did, but what I saw was more Cybil Shepherd-Bruce Willis will they / won't they (are they / aren't they, in this case), rather than ooooh, matron! But I probably didn't see as much of their work as you, so I'm happy to be wrong. I also can't look at it through the prism of Japanese culture, so there's probably lots that comes off one way to me, and another to its immediate audience. Basically, I'm defending ho-yay (or at least what I remember of Kenny and Kota's version of it, because I think it was a lot deeper than tee-hee-hee) and people having to start somewhere. I thought it was one of the better storylines in a long while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeg Posted February 13, 2021 Report Share Posted February 13, 2021 14 hours ago, Mad Dog said: Oh, I agree. It just hurts his credibility as a critic to me and makes his rant wear out really quick. You often watch something good and wonder "gee, I wonder how Cornette is going to twist himself in a way to say that sucked." and then you move on because it's just tiring. Oh absolutely... Like the Bucks vs Omega & Page match last year. That was a potential match of the year, yet it had 3 guys who Cornette has personal issues with so he still managed to find things wrong with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 13, 2021 Report Share Posted February 13, 2021 I guess to his credit, he does praise Sami Zayn now. However, he has to point out EVERY SINGLE TIME that Zayn wasn't nearly as willing to play ball then. We get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted February 13, 2021 Report Share Posted February 13, 2021 I side with Sami on that. RoH wasn't paying him enough for that to be his only gig so he gets the final say on his gimmick. Pay the guys bills if you want him to take his mask off and potentially damage his future earning power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeg Posted February 13, 2021 Report Share Posted February 13, 2021 Sami Zayn is where I completely disagree with Corny. Corny gives him the backhanded compliment of being a talented worker but having a gimmick that limited him. I disagree on both points. The El Generico fake Mexican luchador gimmick was gold! Sami Zayn is the that's limited to mid card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 13, 2021 Report Share Posted February 13, 2021 I remember Corny also made some awkward (to put it in an acceptable way) comments regarding muslims in reference to Sami... And no, don't ask me a precise reference but I remember it from 2016 and I was living in a muslim country at the time, so it really kinda hit me in the wrong way back then (wow, I was still listening to Corny then I guess, or maybe just to have his take on Mania and Takeover, don't remember). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted February 13, 2021 Report Share Posted February 13, 2021 Zayn was a really great babyface in NXT circa 2013-15, but I agree. I loved the Generico gimmick. The tag with him and Steen, really. That was the only time I've ever been into ROH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeg Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 22 hours ago, Ricky Jackson said: Zayn was a really great babyface in NXT circa 2013-15, but I agree. I loved the Generico gimmick. The tag with him and Steen, really. That was the only time I've ever been into ROH I'm luke warm on both guys. They both go, go, go never allowing for things to breath or register. As such I think they both are capable of stealing a show when put in the right spot but can be unwatchable when put in the wrong spot. What I will say is the break up of their tag team and subsequent feud is one of the most brilliant things I've seen in wrestling in a long time. Running an angle in ROH, having it posted to youtube and then going around the country and having a blow off in every single indie company in incredibly innovative and forward thinking. Those guys were a decade ahead of the curve in promoting themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 Sami Zayn's working style is not like that at all now, of course. He's one of the best "character" workers in WWE, in terms of mixing in a lot of personality and aiming to have the right match for the moment moreso than the most exciting one each time out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeg Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 I'll make sure to check some recent Zayn out... anything you specific you'd recommend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 I think every match in his Fidel Castro gimmick has been worked that way. I can't remember last time I saw one that wasn't that way, in fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 2 hours ago, joeg said: I'll make sure to check some recent Zayn out... anything you specific you'd recommend? The ladder match was very smartly worked by him and the best ladder match in years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestlingPower Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 On 2/10/2021 at 4:58 PM, funkdoc said: Maki Itoh is exactly the sort of person who *gets* modern wrestling fandom infinitely more than Cornette or even a lot of this board. Not to unearth this, but it's only a few days old. There's a lot to unpack here and I know so little behind what this even refers to, I'm having trouble coming up with good talking points.. I'm curious why anyone needs to "get modern wrestling fans". I would question are these people even WRESTLING fans. I would guess this is trying to play into trying to paint a subset of the audience as out of touch. Anyone that most likely "gets" whatever this chick stands for or whatever 20-somethings are allegedly looking for in following wrestling, count me into the crowd that wants absolutely nothing to do with any of that. There's no reason that wrestling has to cut off its nose to spite its face and "evolve" into something unrecognizable to longtime fans just to stay relevant. Obviously you want to appeal to a younger crowd to make money and stay in business, but anyone promoting wrestling to fad fans and pissing on the history and legacy of the business needs to be run out of it. Maybe this Itoh has a deep appreciation for 80s and 90s AJW and has had a lifelong dream to be a wrestler, but I'm guessing not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 (edited) 49 minutes ago, WrestlingPower said: Not to unearth this, but it's only a few days old. There's a lot to unpack here and I know so little behind what this even refers to, I'm having trouble coming up with good talking points.. I'm curious why anyone needs to "get modern wrestling fans". I would question are these people even WRESTLING fans. I would guess this is trying to play into trying to paint a subset of the audience as out of touch. Anyone that most likely "gets" whatever this chick stands for or whatever 20-somethings are allegedly looking for in following wrestling, count me into the crowd that wants absolutely nothing to do with any of that. There's no reason that wrestling has to cut off its nose to spite its face and "evolve" into something unrecognizable to longtime fans just to stay relevant. Obviously you want to appeal to a younger crowd to make money and stay in business, but anyone promoting wrestling to fad fans and pissing on the history and legacy of the business needs to be run out of it. With all due respect, this is the sentiment that was applied to 80s WWF/JCP, 90s ECW/WCW/Attitude Era, etc. Even if I tend to agree with the assessment of talents that people who hold this kind of opinion offer, this particular angle screams "I can't take that I'm aging" to me. Foley even made reference in his first book about how Ricky Morton would make fun of old timers back in the late 80s/early 90s with their "back in our day we knew how to wrestle" lines. I don't care for Omega, Maki, or most of the comedic talents that permeate the industry today and I'm greatly looking forward to when the pendulum swings back to something more serious, but the beauty of the modern age is that you probably can find something that satiates you. Edited February 15, 2021 by Laz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkdoc Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 22 hours ago, WrestlingPower said: I would question are these people even WRESTLING fans. They're largely anime/video game fans who enjoy wrestling for its parallels with those artforms. i would say wrestling as part of sports culture is dead, but that stuff is even becoming a bigger part of sports culture these days (cf. JuJu Smith-Schuster doing a Dragon Ball Z touchdown celebration) Winning & losing just isn't a matter of life or death to people now like it was for us when we were younger, even in actual sports. Given everything going on in the world now, the entire concept of pro wrestling seems inherently silly and even a bit corny; people want performers who embrace that corniness. Especially if they can make a genuine statement in the process, like i described above with Itoh vis a vis the idol industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 As someone that has taken their niece to anime conventions the last 5 years. Wrestling and anime fans have a lot of crossovers. One of the conventions even has a local indy run shows there on one of the days. If you wore a Bullet Club shirt to one you would hear about it all day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 12 minutes ago, funkdoc said: i would say wrestling as part of sports culture is dead And you know what, this is a very interesting point and probably, if it's true, part of why I'm so at ease why the new generations, because I'm not a sport fan at all. Nothing aggravates me more than Good Ole JR talking about college sports background when I watch a pro-wrestling match. I don't give a fuck. I'd rather have the current anime/video game crowd rather than the jock culture of the past. Sure, some of it is still there obviously and will remain there, but the lesser we go in that direction, the happier I get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 The indy boom of the 10s largely came about with the nerd culture boom. I've talked about it here briefly but wrestling is neatly wrapped up in nerd culture now and owes a lot of the recent success to that. Even WWE was benefitting from that before chasing everyone away. I go to a lot of sports in my city and I go to a lot of wrestling. The two crowds are not the same other than some old timers and some hockey crossover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Thread Killer Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 16 minutes ago, Mad Dog said: The two crowds are not the same Good point. The reaction all those NBA fans had on Twitter to seeing Chris Jericho for the first time in years on TNT was proof that there is very little crossover between the two fanbases anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 6 minutes ago, The Thread Killer said: Good point. The reaction all those NBA fans had on Twitter to seeing Chris Jericho for the first time in years on TNT was proof that there is very little crossover between the two fanbases anymore. I'm more likely to see flyers for the local indy in comic shops or boardgame shops than I am at a gym these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueminister Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 40 minutes ago, Mad Dog said: The indy boom of the 10s largely came about with the nerd culture boom. I've talked about it here briefly but wrestling is neatly wrapped up in nerd culture now and owes a lot of the recent success to that. Even WWE was benefitting from that before chasing everyone away. I go to a lot of sports in my city and I go to a lot of wrestling. The two crowds are not the same other than some old timers and some hockey crossover. WWE could not chase away nerd culture paypigs even if they tried (and they have tried on multiple occasions.) Geeks are wrestling's eternal mark, in the ways that matter they're the least critical consumer and they have nothing else except their retained enthusiasms to spend money on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 I'm not 100% sure how this fits in here but just want to point out that when the revenue model for wrestling was house shows (and later PPVs, where you'd go to a bar or invite people over), appealing to the types of fans most likely to bring someone (or several someones) with them made sense. Generally speaking, I think people have a lot more interests that they pursue by themselves now than they did in past generations because of the Internet. I think wrestling still has working class appeal, but the working class looks nothing like it did even 20 years ago. It's more diverse and the types of day jobs people have are very different too. At some point, someone smarter than me should do a thread somewhere (and probably not here because Pro Wrestling Only) about how the death of domestic manufacturing reshaped the American fanbase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 I am a bad judge of that. I used to go with my wife and then realized I could go alone and get a better seat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeg Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 2 hours ago, The Thread Killer said: Good point. The reaction all those NBA fans had on Twitter to seeing Chris Jericho for the first time in years on TNT was proof that there is very little crossover between the two fanbases anymore. Yep. The NBA fanbase skews younger than any major American sport. It also skews more liberal than any major American sport. It also skews more African American than any major American sport.... What has wrestling done in the last 20 years to appeal to young African Americans? Anything? Does any here know any black guy under 35 who watches wrestling? I don't but I know plenty who grew up watching it and can talk about the good old days when they were a kid and there were characters they could relate to. Maybe they should try a crossover with MLB... their fanbase is most 30 to 50 something white guys too.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 I don't know anyone under the age of 35 that watches wrestling. It's a lot like comic shops for me. I'm still the youngest guy there and I'm 40. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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