NintendoLogic Posted July 6, 2020 Report Share Posted July 6, 2020 1 hour ago, World's Worst Man said: One thing that heavily implies matches are too scripted (or maybe that the participants aren't so great) is when a spot is blown, or something else goes wrong, and the wrestlers just attempt the very same spot or sequence again rather than moving on or changing it up. Even if it's supposed to be the finish, why not just improvise something else on the fly? Trying the same thing again just looks bad in most cases. This also speaks to the workers just "wanting to get their shit in", something I used to be skeptical about but nowadays is something I'm recognizing a lot more. Case in point: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted July 6, 2020 Report Share Posted July 6, 2020 6 hours ago, El-P said: Too me there's a total over romanticization of the "call everything in the ring" stuff. I Yeah, I don't really get this criticism either & never really have. I guess it's sort of an ego thing, where one professional wants to be able to have something to lord over another: "I called it in the ring." Like when Flair during an interview would say something like "Steamboat never worked heel." It's like, so? If you're good at something, why potentially mess it up? If the end goal is to provide the best form of your work as possible, I don't think it matters how you get there as long as you accomplish that goal. It would be like complaining about a drawing because the artist used a mechanical pencil instead of a number two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted July 6, 2020 Report Share Posted July 6, 2020 Yeah, to me, it feels a lot like when your boss at work gets this big bug up their ass that everyone on the team should be able to do everything. That's nice in theory until you start doing it and you have someone who is excellent at one task doing a task they are mediocre at. Yeah, you're getting by but you could be doing better. Knowing your strengths and weaknesses and being able to constructively self reflect on yourself is a really underrated and underappreciated talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted July 6, 2020 Report Share Posted July 6, 2020 In a lot of territories, they couldn't plan out matches to any real degree even if they wanted to because babyfaces and heels couldn't be seen in public together and had separate dressing rooms. There were times when the first time a wrestler saw his opponent in person was when they were introduced in the ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted July 6, 2020 Report Share Posted July 6, 2020 Also one thing that is very seldom talked about in reference to the "everything called in the ring" : a lot of matches really sucked back then too. Of course the great workers were having great matches, but man, watch a random WWF or NWA big card from the mid 80's and the bad stuff is sooooo bad. Nothing today is as bad as the bad shit from back then. Like, not even close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NitroFan Posted July 6, 2020 Report Share Posted July 6, 2020 On his latest Drive Thru podcast he does a watch along of the Midnight vs Southern Boys match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted July 6, 2020 Report Share Posted July 6, 2020 8 hours ago, NintendoLogic said: Laying out matches beforehand has apparently been standard practice for a while in Mexico. Konnan's Observer HOF bio mentions that his match with Flair at Bash at the Beach 1996 was the first of his career that was called entirely in the ring. I suppose that may be true for the big apuesta matches, especially the Pena booked Konnan ones. But I have a hard time believing that random, pointless trios matches were laid out in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Thread Killer Posted July 7, 2020 Report Share Posted July 7, 2020 2 hours ago, NitroFan said: On his latest Drive Thru podcast he does a watch along of the Midnight vs Southern Boys match. I am looking forward to that. With Cornette right now, we're definitely in a "good news/bad news" situation. The bad news is he basically admitted the majority of his new fans only listen to hear him rip on modern wrestling, so he bowed to fan pressure and is reviewing Fyter Fest and The Great American Bash. (I suspect Brian Last had a lot to do with that as well.) The good news is, they apparently got a ton of positive feedback for the old school watch-along, so as @NitroFan says, they are doing another one. I am all for that. 2 hours ago, El-P said: Also one thing that is very seldom talked about in reference to the "everything called in the ring" : a lot of matches really sucked back then too. Of course the great workers were having great matches, but man, watch a random WWF or NWA big card from the mid 80's and the bad stuff is sooooo bad. A lot of that was deliberate though. I used to go to WWF House Shows at Maple Leaf Gardens religiously from 86-91 or so, and usually there wasn't any great matches until after intermission. Hell, it wasn't even unusual for the first two or three matches to feature enhancement talent, and for those matches to be LONG sumbitches. (Hence my love of Iron Mike Sharpe.) Arn and JR have both talked about how on house shows or even the big events, the opening and even midcard matches were discouraged from being too exciting because that would take away from the upper card and the Main Event. Which is a kind of dumb philosophy in some ways, but then again having all your talent doing insane shit from the opening match and playing "top this" can burn the crowd out and actually does make big spots in the Main Event matches less special, so I guess there are arguments to both sides. 2 hours ago, El-P said: Nothing today is as bad as the bad shit from back then. Like, not even close. That is a massive generalization, and isn't provable one way or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Migs Posted July 7, 2020 Report Share Posted July 7, 2020 16 hours ago, SomethingSavage said: Yeah, I'm not buying that. There's some early 00s stuff with LowKi, Danielson, Joe, and even AJ that looks plenty stiff and snug without gaping holes in the work. It's still a performance, but it's more an athletic struggle and less a dance recital than a lot of what I see today. I'm not saying there isn't SOME of that happening today. But I think the majority is an abundance of rehearsed stuff. That's perception, and I'm not alone in that. Feel free to dismiss my talking point as just some generic opinion I'm parroting from elsewhere, but I'd say you're living in a bubble. Because tons of folks feel the same way without perusing message boards or having their faces in wrestling Twitter to tell them what they should think. You pulled the top 3 guys (along with Homicide) who worked a style with any struggle in that period. Watch AJ-Christopher Daniels from '01 or '02. Even mores watch, the SATs, or a ton of other guys who were less good. So much of the work deeply requires cooperation, and you can see the strings. We can joke about Private Party but they're Danielson-level compared to the 2002 ROH mid card. Now, will you find spots that look too cooperative at times today? Of course. You'll see a person waiting in place for a spot at times. You'll see sequences that look a little too smooth. But this is a problem that's getting better, not worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dav'oh Posted July 7, 2020 Report Share Posted July 7, 2020 18 hours ago, SomethingSavage said: But I think the majority is an abundance of rehearsed stuff. I was reading recently that wrestlers signed to the Gold Dust Trio would spend their time at Sandow's private ring, practicing routines. It's always been the backbone of the sport, it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted July 7, 2020 Report Share Posted July 7, 2020 8 hours ago, The Thread Killer said: A lot of that was deliberate though. I used to go to WWF House Shows at Maple Leaf Gardens religiously from 86-91 or so, and usually there wasn't any great matches until after intermission. Hell, it wasn't even unusual for the first two or three matches to feature enhancement talent, and for those matches to be LONG sumbitches. (Hence my love of Iron Mike Sharpe.) I would not call that deliberate in a "that's the way people worked back then" way but deliberate in a "let's put crappy, super limited workers for the first half of the show" way. That's also what I was referring to as far as bad stuff really sucking a lot more then than now. I can watch a stupid MLW six men sloppy spotfest and be at least entertained at some point by some cool spot. Give me SD Jones vs Iron Mike Sharpe going 15 minutes and a die out of boredom. For all the shit I say about Baron Corbin for instance, obviously if I get to choose between a match of his today and some I.R.S. vs Henry Godwinn stuff from 1995, I take the Corbin stuff as far as objective in-ring quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Thread Killer Posted July 9, 2020 Report Share Posted July 9, 2020 On 7/7/2020 at 5:19 AM, El-P said: Give me SD Jones vs Iron Mike Sharpe going 15 minutes and a die out of boredom. Okay listen, I know you're from France so I'll chalk what you just said up to a cultural misunderstanding...because that is Iron Mike Sharpe you're talking about, mister. As in "Canada's Greatest Athlete" Iron Mike Sharpe. The man wrestled for 15 years with a forearm injury that would have crippled anybody else, but all he needed was a leather forearm brace and he was still twice the athlete anybody else in the WWF was. He was robbed of the WWF Tag Team Championships on multiple occasions because they kept sticking him with inferior partners like Steve Lombardi or Terry Gibbs. Hell, the man had the greatest set of lungs in the history of Professional Wrestling. As Gorilla Monsoon used to say, if you could win matches verbally or judged the winner by volume, Iron Mike would have been undefeated. So I'll thank you to keep your snide comments about Iron Mike Sharpe to yourself. If you think @C.S. is out of control with his blind love for Mauro Ranallo, you ain't seen nothing yet. Just wait until you see what happens if people keep besmirching the good name of Iron Mike Sharpe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted July 9, 2020 Report Share Posted July 9, 2020 3 hours ago, The Thread Killer said: If you think @C.S. is out of control with his blind love for Mauro Ranallo, you ain't seen nothing yet. Just wait until you see what happens if people keep besmirching the good name of Iron Mike Sharpe. Iron Mike Sharpe is the greatest Canadian wrestler of all time, period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blehschmidt Posted July 9, 2020 Report Share Posted July 9, 2020 10 hours ago, The Thread Killer said: Okay listen, I know you're from France so I'll chalk what you just said up to a cultural misunderstanding...because that is Iron Mike Sharpe you're talking about, mister. As in "Canada's Greatest Athlete" Iron Mike Sharpe. The man wrestled for 15 years with a forearm injury that would have crippled anybody else, but all he needed was a leather forearm brace and he was still twice the athlete anybody else in the WWF was. He was robbed of the WWF Tag Team Championships on multiple occasions because they kept sticking him with inferior partners like Steve Lombardi or Terry Gibbs. Hell, the man had the greatest set of lungs in the history of Professional Wrestling. As Gorilla Monsoon used to say, if you could win matches verbally or judged the winner by volume, Iron Mike would have been undefeated. So I'll thank you to keep your snide comments about Iron Mike Sharpe to yourself. If you think @C.S. is out of control with his blind love for Mauro Ranallo, you ain't seen nothing yet. Just wait until you see what happens if people keep besmirching the good name of Iron Mike Sharpe. Canada's Greatest T-Shirt If you are so inclined! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Thread Killer Posted July 9, 2020 Report Share Posted July 9, 2020 3 hours ago, Blehschmidt said: Canada's Greatest T-Shirt If you are so inclined! You're the man, @Blehschmidt. I am so ordering that shirt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NitroFan Posted July 10, 2020 Report Share Posted July 10, 2020 I wonder if Ricky Morton will be next on Jims sHit list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted July 10, 2020 Report Share Posted July 10, 2020 I mean it's not an accident Ricky understands keeping up with the times and the Rock n Rolls were able to work matches in 2019 and not look completely out of place. He was able to take things that worked in his day and things that work today (albeit adapted so someone his age can do it) and get over with a modern crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted July 10, 2020 Report Share Posted July 10, 2020 Corny and his followers will pretend Morton was only talking about FTR... while ignoring the "I love watching all the wrestling today". Hey, talk about someone who could be a great manager in AEW ? He's smaller, he still can take a bump (hell, do a Canadian Destroyer if he feels like it) and still can cut one hell of a promo as showed by his NWA work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted July 10, 2020 Report Share Posted July 10, 2020 "Today, wrestling is better. One must be able to adjust to today's time and flow." Ricky Morton. Damn millennials... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted July 10, 2020 Report Share Posted July 10, 2020 Ricky knows which side his bread is buttered on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted July 10, 2020 Report Share Posted July 10, 2020 Hopefully Morton can give the AEW crew some pointers on how to set up a proper hot tag. Simultaneous tags are the cancer that is killing tag team wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted July 10, 2020 Report Share Posted July 10, 2020 2 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said: Ricky knows which side his bread is buttered on. Sure, he can't POSSIBLY think current pro-wrestling is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted July 10, 2020 Report Share Posted July 10, 2020 2 hours ago, NintendoLogic said: Hopefully Morton can give the AEW crew some pointers on how to set up a proper hot tag. Simultaneous tags are the cancer that is killing tag team wrestling. Am I totally off on this, or did this really become a thing during the SD Six era? I find it annoying too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Posted July 10, 2020 Report Share Posted July 10, 2020 It's a case where the subversion of the trope becomes the trope, but the next generation thinks of the subversion as the norm. You see it in music, movies, television, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted July 10, 2020 Report Share Posted July 10, 2020 Love to hear stuff like that from an "old timer" like Morton. Something that annoyed me on a recent Corny podcast. He refused to watch Io and Sasha on NXT because there had already been too many women on the show, and because Io and girls like her are "all the same". Said he doesn't need to see another schoolgirl/gaesha. Brian thankfully pointed out that Io is great and that isn't her character, but Corny won't even give her a chance because there's too many Asian girls on the shows. He then goes into the theory of you can't have too many of the same type of wrestlers because then they don't stand out and feel special. Which I happen to agree with generally....but WWE has 3 Japanese female wrestlers that are featured on TV and they're 3 of the best in the world. Better that than a bunch of generic blondes with bolt-ons. And I think he conflates it with Riho and Shida (neither of whom are in Io, Asuka or Sane's league IMO) in AEW and it's just too much for him to handle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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