The Jim Ross Is A Grouchy Hateful Vile Human Being thread

[blueminister]

Safe wrestling looks more or less like Bret Hart. You don't need to sacrifice impact, variety, or dramatic build if you know what you're doing.

Bret deserves credit for never injuring an opponent (that we know of), but safe wrestling does *not* look like Bret Hart. Even if you chalk up Goldberg's mule kick as an unfortunate fluke, Bret broke his sternum taking a nutty bump to a guardrail, had serious knee issues, and used the same hard-bumping style that completely fucked the backs and necks of many of his colleagues.

The concussion wasn't an unfortunate fluke, it was the direct result of Goldberg being rushed through the training process and not knowing how to work strikes with any consistency. The sternum injury was a fluke, as to my knowledge wrestlers can work that guardrail spot relatively safely. Point taken about Bret's unfortunate bumping style, but I fail too see how his offensive style isn't a logical step forward from dumb head-drop city.

[Resident Evil]

The very nature of wrestling leads to injuries, injuries, injuries and more injuries.

Wrestling is fake. If people are getting hurt doing it they can change what they're doing. If they won't that has absolutely nothing to do with the nature of wrestling. Theoretically you could work a style that would guarantee no one would ever get hurt. The question is how far you can go toward that style without becoming unbearably boring, not whether you can go towards it.

 

Impossible. Absolutely impossible to work a style that would guarantee no one would ever get hurt.

 

 

Wrestling is fake and real. There is impact in wrestling. A TV fight is completely "fake". It's the real aspect of the wrestling show combined with the emotions that one can dig up with the benifit of the fakeness that makes wrestling tick for its fans. That's the nature of wrestling and why it differs to something like a movie fight and this leads to inuries, injuries, injuries. You might not agree that that's what wrestling should be but for better or for worse that's what it is

 

It's not all or nothing though. You can take a lot of precautions that are not being taken, and even though it won't make wrestling "safe", it'll still be better than the current status quo. It's not like there's no middle ground between totally safe wrestling (read "none") and dudes headbutting ringposts in front of a couple hundred people.

 

Look, I live on Long Island, and when ROH comes around, I usually go. It's Long Island, so the crowds tend to be pretty indifferent, and knowing this, the shows usually aren't that significant, and the internet at large tends to ignore them. There is precisely zero reason why the Briscoe Brothers should be doing lengthy spot-fu/headrop/indy stiffness/DANGEROUSSSSSSS matches that go 20+ minutes. And yet, that's exactly what happens, and they're not the only ones doing it. Why? Why does this have to be the match they work every time out, no matter the card position, card significance, match significance, etc. These are the kind of risks that can be reduced, and even though it won't make the matches "safe", it won't make them needlessly dangerous, either.

 

I agree alsmost completely.

[Guest KCook]

Fair enough—but one way to change the calculus for a guy like McGuiness is to shout down the vampire crowd and viciously mock him if he does stuff he obviously shouldn't be doing. You wouldn't think that would have all that much of an effect, but then given ROH's attempts at damage control, maybe it does.

Completely agree with this... the more backlash that actually reaches ROH, whether via the Internet or live fan reactions, the better. But I don't think anybody was posting for Gabe's eyes when they wrote *on this board* that all pro wrestlers were fucking morons, or that they looked forward to laughing at them when they became drooling retards. I mean, let's not kid ourselves, here. That wasn't noble fans campaigning for change... that was some dudes hating on some shit. All well and good, but call it what it is.

 

Again fair enough, but I'd hope you'd make some allowance for hyperbole. If/when Nigel McGuiness or Bryan Danielson become drooling retards, on some level I am going to laugh at them, because they damn well knew better. But mostly I'll just be sad because it didn't have to happen. I also don't think that backlash has to be explicitly intended for Gabe's eyes or even seen by him to have effect.

[Guest onlxn]

Sure. I think we're pretty much in agreement on this stuff.

 

On a slightly different note: I agree with S.L.L. and everyone that the headdrops on the indies are unnecessary, in terms of both risk and storytelling. The weird thing is... how many injuries do we know of those moves?

 

Don't get me wrong: I'm not endorsing them. I'm against them (with occasional exceptions... I can't claim to be innocent here by any means), and I'm shocked that they don't cause injuries more often. But when you hear about concussions, you mainly hear about strikes, simple bumps and mishaps on the floor. Off the top of my head, I'm not aware of any ROH concussions caused by headdrops.

 

I know of a couple in PWG... Chris Bosh and Quicksilver have both retired due to getting a concussion or two (kudos to them, speaking of which), and it certainly seemed like Super Dragon knocked Homicide silly a couple years ago. But between the lack of headdrop-induced concussions stateside, and the lack of reports about the All-Japan guys' brain being fried, is it possible that headdrops aren't as likely to cause concussions as one might think? I don't know the answer... just curious.

[Loss]

I don't think any of us can even imagine what truly "safe" wrestling would look like... it'd probably involve loose strikes, rolling bumps, no forays to the floor, no knee drops, and a lot of stuff we wouldn't even be able to think of, and even then, bones would still break every now and again.

I think safe wrestling would look like this:

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/country:dk/tag/...at-chitow_sport

[S.L.L.]

Sure. I think we're pretty much in agreement on this stuff.

 

On a slightly different note: I agree with S.L.L. and everyone that the headdrops on the indies are unnecessary, in terms of both risk and storytelling. The weird thing is... how many injuries do we know of those moves?

 

Don't get me wrong: I'm not endorsing them. I'm against them (with occasional exceptions... I can't claim to be innocent here by any means), and I'm shocked that they don't cause injuries more often. But when you hear about concussions, you mainly hear about strikes, simple bumps and mishaps on the floor. Off the top of my head, I'm not aware of any ROH concussions caused by headdrops.

 

I know of a couple in PWG... Chris Bosh and Quicksilver have both retired due to getting a concussion or two (kudos to them, speaking of which), and it certainly seemed like Super Dragon knocked Homicide silly a couple years ago. But between the lack of headdrop-induced concussions stateside, and the lack of reports about the All-Japan guys' brain being fried, is it possible that headdrops aren't as likely to cause concussions as one might think? I don't know the answer... just curious.

Not sure there are too many people in wrestling today who's brains have been fried worse than Misawa's, but your point stands. But I do think, as you seem to, that they should be reduced on general principle.

[ohtani's jacket]

I guess it's mainly because most people have the ability to simultaneously enjoy something while realizing that thing may have had a dark side? It's like enjoying a certain style of music while acknowledging your favorite band was coked up and doing degrading things to prostitutes while recording the album. It's not like everything is black and white. The world is shades of grey, and as such you can't expect there not to be things you don't 100% agree with.

It's not about whether you can/should acknowledge that musicians have fucked-up lifestyles and sometimes die from it... It's about how you acknowledge it... Saying there should be no music anymore, while still listening to your favourite albums, is really no different from apologists. The whole thing is a touchy subject & people are gonna react to it in different ways... including wishing it would go away or being worried that it will threaten the business... Some people square all the blame on the business, others think it's inherently fucked to begin with. Whatever position you take, "I can enjoy it and criticise it" is not a defensible line against taking shit about A and marking out about B, and moreover, it's not a defence for talking shit about people who can't bring themselves to criticise the business. The assumption is that those people are marks, but that bingo sheet had relevant aspects to any dialogue about this issue, particularly for people who can't accept that all wrestlers have psychological problems or that Benoit's brain is why he killed himself and his family.

[ohtani's jacket]

If you look through the threads about the individual matches, I think Kris, Goodhelmet, myself, and Phil are all pretty honest about the drug problems that affected different members of the roster. I think you'll find us all to be pretty honest about Watts racism. There may be rose colored glasses but there aren't blinders.

OK, fair enough.

[ohtani's jacket]

What of you, OJ? Has everything you've ever posted about wrestling contained equal amounts of praise and scorn? Are you not guilty of this same "inconsistency" when discussing things in wrestling you like? Or is it only a double standard when somebody else does it?

Of course I can be inconsistent and flat out wrong about things. If you want my honest opinion, I don't think I could watch wrestling anymore if I felt as strongly about things as other people do, but I keep watching because I've always watched it and don't want to stop, except for Benoit matches which I avoid. (Something I'm not entirely comfortable about.) I think people can negotiate their way through a pro-wrestling career, but most don't. Really I have no justification to keep watching and have the most respect for people who've stopped. Tnen again, I couldn't enjoy anything if I worried about all the shit that goes along with it.

[S.L.L.]

What of you, OJ? Has everything you've ever posted about wrestling contained equal amounts of praise and scorn? Are you not guilty of this same "inconsistency" when discussing things in wrestling you like? Or is it only a double standard when somebody else does it?

Of course I can be inconsistent and flat out wrong about things. If you want my honest opinion, I don't think I could watch wrestling anymore if I felt as strongly about things as other people do, but I keep watching because I've always watched it and don't want to stop, except for Benoit matches which I avoid. (Something I'm not entirely comfortable about.) I think people can negotiate their way through a pro-wrestling career, but most don't. Really I have no justification to keep watching and have the most respect for people who've stopped. Tnen again, I couldn't enjoy anything if I worried about all the shit that goes along with it.

 

Then why the beef with people who essentially feel the same way you do, but openly acknowledge their concerns instead of trying to squelch them because they're not comfortable dealing with them? Don't get me wrong, the situation is fucked up, and I don't blame you if it's not something you want to spend a lot of time thinking about, but I don't see how you can complain about people being dishonest and inconsistent with the "I can enjoy it and criticize it" line when your own solution seems to be to just ignore the elements being criticized even though you know they exist and that they're a problem. I guess that's more consistent than what I'm saying, but it's consistent because you willfully dismiss reality in order to make the pieces fit better in your head.

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't have a problem with people acknowledging it, I have a problem with the leap from this business is fucked to Michael PS Hayes has a great left or whatever... Others don't, tomk explained about Mid-South. That's fine, I'm not suggesting we all develop guilt complexes. What I'd like to know is how people can separate their feelings about the business from their fandom, if indeed they do... I mean if you're resigned to the fact that the business is fucked, but still enjoy watching matches, then to some extent you're switching off whether you're outspoken about the business or not.

[S.L.L.]

I don't have a problem with people acknowledging it, I have a problem with the leap from this business is fucked to Michael PS Hayes has a great left or whatever... Others don't, tomk explained about Mid-South. That's fine, I'm not suggesting we all develop guilt complexes. What I'd like to know is how people can separate their feelings about the business from their fandom, if indeed they do... I mean if you're resigned to the fact that the business is fucked, but still enjoy watching matches, then to some extent you're switching off whether you're outspoken about the business or not.

Well, for me personally, it's not even really a conscious thing. I've loved wrestling since I was 7 years old. In general, nothing about what I was seeing on TV fundamentally changed that. Since then, I've learned all this behind the scenes stuff that makes me realize how scummy wrestling really is. But that didn't make what was happening on TV all those years any less entertaining. I can certainly see why it would for some, but it didn't for me. I'm not sure why. I have a pretty dark sense of humor, I guess that helps. And I'm pretty good at separating performer from performance. And in general, I have the sense that I love wrestling far more so than I love any actual wrestler or people working in wrestling. I still kind of feel that wrestling as a concept is inherently bad, but the people who bring wrestling to life make it bad. I know that doesn't really explain everything away, but that's basically where I'm coming from.

[Guest *FH*]

On a slightly different note: I agree with S.L.L. and everyone that the headdrops on the indies are unnecessary, in terms of both risk and storytelling.

Head drops on the indies are unnecessary? Head drops anywhere are unnecessary. It's supposed to be fake. What about "the big leagues" makes it more "worth it" to take a suplex on your skull and compact your spinal column? WAIT WAIT what if it's an indie match and a lot of peope are there??? What if it's being taped??? OMG what if Misawa is there???? There is something hideously wrong with your thought process that probably comes from watching stuff like late 90s AJPW. Big matches call for big sacrifices, right?

 

I don't know how many times it can be said: wrestling is supposed to be a work. "Punch me square in the face and then give me an unprotected German where I land right on the top of my head" flies 100% in the face of that. Unless you're just being willfully obtuse to protect something you sickly enjoy watching, I don't see how there is room for disagreement here.

[Guest onlxn]

On a slightly different note: I agree with S.L.L. and everyone that the headdrops on the indies are unnecessary, in terms of both risk and storytelling.

Head drops on the indies are unnecessary? Head drops anywhere are unnecessary. It's supposed to be fake. What about "the big leagues" makes it more "worth it" to take a suplex on your skull and compact your spinal column? WAIT WAIT what if it's an indie match and a lot of peope are there??? What if it's being taped??? OMG what if Misawa is there???? There is something hideously wrong with your thought process that probably comes from watching stuff like late 90s AJPW. Big matches call for big sacrifices, right?

 

I don't know how many times it can be said: wrestling is supposed to be a work. "Punch me square in the face and then give me an unprotected German where I land right on the top of my head" flies 100% in the face of that. Unless you're just being willfully obtuse to protect something you sickly enjoy watching, I don't see how there is room for disagreement here.

 

Oooooookay.

 

1) I was focusing on US indy head drops because S.L.L. was talking about ROH, and because that's where head drops are the most common in wrestling these days. Both pretty obvious points.

 

2) I admittedly don't watch ROH as much as I used to, but it's been awhile since I've seen an unprotected German on the indies. I was thinking about the more common types of indy head drops -- Jay Briscoe's Jay Driller and Steen's Package Piledriver, for instance. These *look* like brutal, dangerous moves... but they're moves where the guy doing them takes almost all of the impact, and I'm not aware of either having actually hurt anybody. It's possible that they're no more dangerous than a Lawler piledriver... *less* dangerous than a Nash powerbomb. I'm not saying I'm convinced that these are actually relatively safe moves -- I'm saying I don't know. And I'm pretty sure that, your incessant bleating aside, you don't either.

 

3) You've recently been congratulating yourself for reevaluating Vader after seeing his Starrcade match with Flair. If you're going to be even remotely intellectual honest, you can't stop there -- you need to reevaluate *Flair*. How many wobbly piledrivers did he perform in the eighties? How many times did he do that chaotic cross-body to the floor, like in the clip Loss posted? You think nobody's *ever* been injured by a stiff strike to the upper chest? You think it's totally kosher to slather yourself in the blood of known drug users a couple times a month?

 

4) Actually, let me answer that one: you *do* think it's kosher. You recently praised Bret/Piper from WMVIII as an example of wrestling done right... that's a match where Bret said "FUCK DA BOSSES" and sliced his forehead open with a razor blade, losing at least a half-pint to a stadium floor. Why is that something that you "sickly enjoy watching"? What went "hideously wrong" with your thought process to think that that was okay? Why do I get the feeling that we're a second Mass Transit incident away from you acting like you never liked blading in the first place?

 

5) I tell you, one thing I'm tiring of is hearing MMA fans say "no risks are okay in a work" -- like the magic of sport justifies all health risks. HHH eating an unprotected German suplex in front of millions of viewers is needless masochism, but my buddy getting kicked unconscious in front of 200 people in West Covina is doing God's work? Why do I get the feeling that we're an MMA calamity from you shrieking at your fellow fans for their callousness in a post-Jaime Varner world?

 

We've been having a pretty interesting conversation about this stuff... you're retarding that conversation with your antiquated "headdrops N stiffness R bad, but everything else B kool" ideas. To think that simply hating Vader makes you a responsible wrestling fan is either naive or hypocritical, depending on your intelligence level.

 

You're right -- there IS something weird and not okay about me liking wrestling. But at least I'm acknowledging that, and trying to walk through where I stand on it. You've taken a simplistic stand and are sticking there, drenched in flop-sweat, waiting for Internet props that may never come... and you're STILL just as guilty as me. Open your eyes, friend.

[Guest *FH*]

Your hunting down posts (Flair/Vader, Bret/Piper) to prove some nebulous point on a message board is sort of creepy to me. It's also a dick move to tell me I'm "retarding the conversation" with what I have to say. I'm so sorry, professor. Why don't you shit on Cook as well, since his argument could be cheaply summarized and dismissed the way you did mine? Again, that's really an asshole way to behave. Overall, your post reads as someone who is very insecure and defensive. I imagine you sweating and typing furiously, quaking with impotent rage at how I dared to lower this high-end discourse on naked men rolling around and pretending to fight. Calm down there, lil trooper, it'll be okay.

 

To discuss one point (because I'm kind of *eh* about dissecting all this crap), I guess I should reevaluate Flair as well. To be honest, I don't studiously watch as much wrestling as many other here obviously do (ps not a diss) and that match stood out to me vis a vis looking at guys differently, and thinking about styles and injuries that could be avoided. I really didn't "pat myself on the back" for looking at Vader in a different light, I just stated it as fact. I'm not sure where you got that as far as any self-congratulating tone goes. Again, you really seem to think I'm smirking at you and fellating myself for having such an evolved view of wrestling, and it's not the case. I'm sorry you read all these things into it. You seem pretty insecure.

[smkelly]

You guys do realize you're arguing about a fake sport, on a internet message board, right?

[Guest onlxn]

Your hunting down posts (Flair/Vader, Bret/Piper) to prove some nebulous point on a message board is sort of creepy to me.

You commented about Vader in direct response to me in another thread. I tend to read the "what are you watching" sections of wrestling boards, and thought I remembered you talking about Bret/Piper (a match I like as much as you do, incidentally). If you want to call reading wrestling message boards "hunting" or "creepy", fair enough.

 

For the record, I have no beef with you... I have no idea who you are. I'm not angry, and I'm actually enjoying this discussion. I fail to see how my response was dramatically nastier than the post I was responding to, but I apologize if I hurt your feelings.

[jdw]

I think the Mid-South project is great, but the whole "you can still like something and criticise it" thing is BS. Not in the sense that people should ignore the sleazy/shitty/fatal aspects of the business, but in their attitude towards it.

Can someone point me to what set Daniel off on this one? And what he means.

 

Anyway... obviously one can still like something and criticise it. I love Zep, but the Shark Episode was pretty sleazy, and it frankly doesn't even scratch the surface of the shit they were up to from the dope to the thugishness to Jimmy's yen for young chicks. One sleazy fucking band, but I still dig the music.

 

John

[jdw]

"Work on your upper-body development" is still wrestling business code for "get on the gas."

 

It's possible that the intention of the "get something more flattering" comment was that if he didn't want to use steroids, to develop a gimmick that would allow him to wear a shirt.

There are lots of other comments hitting the point Bix made in getting across my earlier post. Bix said it in two sentences, cutting to the point. I'm stupified that anyone who knows anything about wrestling and steroids even bothers defending Jim on it. I mean... it's obvious exactly what Jim was saying. Even Meltzer, who defends Jim to the death, didn't defend that comment. Yohe, Jewett and I were in the theater with Meltzer watching that movie, and Dave wouldn't defend it or try to pawn it off as anything other than what it was - Jim speaking in wrestling code to tell Jones to get on the sauce if he wanted a chance in the big time.

 

 

John

[Al]

I'll concede the point. Cutting across it though, what makes Ross any different from any wrestling promoter/figure, or that matter any person in charge in professional sports? Steroids is so inherent in athletics nowadays that it seems nearly impossible to cut it out. Even if promoters were 100% honest and scrupulous about it, you can't get rid of it.

[Phil Schneider]

Okay that has to be BINGO right there

[tomk]

Damnit there is no square for that.

 

G3 really is a different argument.

 

Hey Loss I'm sorry as this is partially my fault but can we somehow move the apologist BINGO--Ohtani's Jacket stuff to a seperate thread...as I don't want the Jim Ross hypocracy to get lost in the midle of handwringing over each others hypocricy.

[jdw]

Cutting across it though, what makes Ross any different from any wrestling promoter/figure, or that matter any person in charge in professional sports?

(a) Because Ross in the recent text someone dragged over here said he wanted to clean up wrestling from juice. That's what's called lying - Jim doesn't want to clean up wrestling. Big muscled up ass kicking athletic wrestlers gives Jim wrestling wood.

 

( b ) Because Ross is usually beyond criticism from the Wrestling Media. He's either a favorite who can do no wrong, or too good of source to shit on, or a combo of both.

 

So it's fun to point out when Jim is just as much of a piece of shit as most people in wrestling. That is, after all, the point of the thread: that Jim Ross, the God of Wrestling Announcing, is just as much of a Grouchy Hateful Vile Human Being as so many other fucks in wrestling are.

 

John

[jdw]

Hey Loss I'm sorry as this is partially my fault but can we somehow move the apologist BINGO--Ohtani's Jacket stuff to a seperate thread...as I don't want the Jim Ross hypocracy to get lost in the midle of handwringing over each others hypocricy.

Well... they are good examples of how Jim gets let off the hook.

 

 

John

[Al]

Okay that has to be BINGO right there

Grow up.

 

I'm not saying it's ok, or that it justifies everything or anything. That's the reality. But by all means, please tell us how you would fix everything.