Most unselfish top guy

[Beast]

On 2/3/2021 at 12:28 AM, C.S. said:

The Rock, Daniel Bryan, Goldberg (yes, really)

Rock has been mentioned several times already, so I won't rehash that.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Bryan yet. Absolutely unselfish top guy.

My Goldberg pick probably has people scratching their heads, so I'll explain... Despite the streak, he never cared about losing. He lost to Chad Fortune, of all people, before debuting on Nitro. He has lost several times in WWE. Yes, there was hubbub that he "that doesn't work for me, brother"-ed a loss to The Fiend. But you know what? I'm okay with that. 

I'm genuinely curious about Goldberg. So he lost a dark match well before his actual Nitro debut, let alone the streak? I'm not sure how that makes him generous.

He wasn't generous enough to work any sort of program with Jericho in WCW, even when the end result would have been to squash Jericho. 

[joeg]

Yeah Goldberg doesn't fit here... the story of Goldberg telling Vince Russo he shouldn't put over Scott Steiner because Steiner could never beat him if wrestling were a shoot and Russo responding that Goldberg should go tell Steiner that himself is priceless. But not what I would call unselfish.  

[gordi]

1) Bryan

2) Terry

3) Liger

4) Foley

5) Bret

I mean, just, all of those guys consistently worked to make the other guy look as good as possible. 

Who would be the top lady in this discussion? Chiggy? 

[C.S.]

2 hours ago, Beast said:

I'm genuinely curious about Goldberg. So he lost a dark match well before his actual Nitro debut, let alone the streak? I'm not sure how that makes him generous.

He wasn't generous enough to work any sort of program with Jericho in WCW, even when the end result would have been to squash Jericho. 

Goldberg was a green rookie taking bad advice from bad people. I don't hold that against him.

Especially in light of the Eaton story and all the jobs he's done in WWE.

1 hour ago, joeg said:

Yeah Goldberg doesn't fit here... the story of Goldberg telling Vince Russo he shouldn't put over Scott Steiner because Steiner could never beat him if wrestling were a shoot and Russo responding that Goldberg should go tell Steiner that himself is priceless. But not what I would call unselfish.  

Goldberg vs. Scott Steiner could have been a huge money program. If the streak had never been ended so stupidly and Steiner had been built up as a top level heel, it could have been a great Starrcade main event. I personally have no problem with Goldberg telling Vince Russo to fuck off and shove his illogical hotshot bullshit up his ass.

Goldberg still fits here. 

[El-P]

5 hours ago, gordi said:

Who would be the top lady in this discussion? Chiggy? 

You mean the woman who built an entire promotion around herself a decade past her prime and consistently stayed on top over there and only put over her protege on the very final show, as she closed down said promotion when she saw fit to retire again ? Hum.... I'd say a big fat no to that. 

[NintendoLogic]

Look at the adjective: "most." If there are several high-profile instances of selfish behavior by a wrestler that have to be explained away, he is, ipso facto, not one of the most unselfish top guys ever. Hulk Hogan and HHH did plenty of jobs too. Does that make them unselfish?

[MoS]

Yeah, Goldberg was not an unselfish top guy. But, going back to the original post, his was a case when he should not have been unselfish. His character depended on being invincible and he couldn't do what Rock and Flair did and get his heat back after a loss with a promo. He needed to win almost every match he did.

[joeg]

I just love that Goldberg was so delusional that he thought he would take SCOTT STEINER in a legit contest... The wrestling business has a way of warping people's perceptions but christ almighty.... 

[Dr. Dunk]

I'm going to go with Flair. He constantly made guys look A LOT better then they were, especially on TV.

[flyonthewall2983]

He would be the poster boy, certainly. I watched the match with Luger from 88 in Baltimore, and while I think Luger was good Flair made him better. That's a pretty commonly held belief, but it shows not just his unselfishness but his application of craft because he almost never looked foolish putting guys over either. 

[Coffey]

On 2/4/2021 at 11:09 PM, joeg said:

I think its got to be Terry Funk. First off he chose to drop the title rather than keep it because the road was fucking up his marriage and personal life, and he chose to drop it to Harley Race making Race a star in the process.... if we were to take a look at everybody he helped make a top guy or every territory he popped it would be a long list... Here's the list of guys who got the rub from Terry Funk after his NWA title reign- Harley Race, Giant Baba, Jumbo Tsuruta, Stan Hansen, Bruiser Brody, Dusty Rhodes, Jerry Lawler, Carlos Colon, Hulk Hogan, The Road Warriors, The Invaders, Ric Flair, Atushi Onita, Mick Foley, Masato Tanaka, Hayabusa, Raven, Sandman, Sabu, Shane Douglas, Tommy Dreamer, Steve Corino. As a former world champ he spent 25 years putting anyone and everyone over. He's also responsible for All Japan's early success as well as giving some sort of credibility to FMW, ECW, IWA and MLW. There's a long list of wrestlers that never would have had careers without Terry Funk and quite a few promotions that never would have gotten off the ground without him. If you look at his career from when he loses the world championship in 1977 until 2003ish he does nothing but show up in a territory, spend a little bit of time there getting somebody over and improving their gate then take some time off. He does this over and over in multiple territories around the globe for 25 years. 

I.. Hmm.

 

I think I'm going with Terry. You sold me.

[MoS]

Looking at the recent Smackdown results, I think Daniel Bryan deserves a discussion here, cuz he encapsulates both sides of the coin. 

We know he has a lot of creative freedom in his angles, and Vince has a ton of respect for him. He is using this freedom to put over everyone. While the sentiment is laudable, when you are losing to everyone, then a win over you has no value. Losing to Cesaro in a 5-min match after you have lost to everyone else does not elevate Cesaro in any way; it just makes Cesaro look like someone who beat a jobber. The old adage of putting over everyone puts over no one. For me, Bryan's generosity really drives home the point that in wrestling, being too unselfish is a vice, not a virtue. 

[Justtxyank]

Flair always gets this designation but I think it’s important to point out that Flair was “unselfish” in a way that worked for his character. 
 

im going to throw Sting into this discussion. Not only did he put guys over, but he also frequently went down the card and worked with guys lower than him and actively tried to make them look good, similar to Bret Hart. Now he wasn’t as good as Bret at anything but still. He also didn’t complain like Bret did. 
 

As a hard to believe point for Sting, during Goldberg’s title reign in 98 the vast majority of the main guys in WCW wouldn’t do a job for him but Sting did it on a Nitro. He and Giant (who may also deserve consideration) were maybe the only two legit former champs who he got to go over?

[Loss]

So do people buy into the narrative that Misawa spent the last 10-15 years of his career desperately wanting to pass the torch, only to reluctantly have to be the top guy again over and over because attempts to replace him never worked? Or do people think that narrative is a little too clean to be entirely true?

[El-P]

35 minutes ago, Loss said:

So do people buy into the narrative that Misawa spent the last 10-15 years of his career desperately wanting to pass the torch, only to reluctantly have to be the top guy again over and over because attempts to replace him never worked? 

Yes. It's obvious when you watch the booking. He put the title on himself first to pass it to Akiyama and make him the top guy. Then he defeated Takayama, who was an outsider, to pass it to Kobashi and kickstart the legendary reign. Then when the first Marufuji reign did not work out, he got the title back to try and make Morishima's win important. NOAH was never about Misawa.

[NintendoLogic]

Like a lot of wrestlers who became promoters, Misawa preferred to book what worked for him in his in-ring career. From his perspective, a win over Jumbo made him a superstar overnight. If one big win wasn't enough to elevate Akiyama or Morishima or whoever else to his level, there must be something wrong with them.

[Richeyedwards]

26 minutes ago, El-P said:

Yes. It's obvious when you watch the booking. He put the title on himself first to pass it to Akiyama and make him the top guy. Then he defeated Takayama, who was an outsider, to pass it to Kobashi and kickstart the legendary reign. Then when the first Marufuji reign did not work out, he got the title back to try and make Morishima's win important. NOAH was never about Misawa.

His last title reign was there because they lost most of their tv, Kobashi was injured and marufuji+ Rikio had failed. Yes he held it for a year but that was because he was the draw. Noah outsid eof the big markets used sold shows often to people who weren't caught up on wrestling in 2007 they wanted to still see Misawa and Kobashi etc not someone like KENTA.

To establish himself as a proper champion not a transitional one so that when he lost it to morishima it as you say meant more. A 400 day reign still seems a little excessive to me but it does make sense.

[El-P]

18 minutes ago, Richeyedwards said:

His last title reign was there because they lost most of their tv, Kobashi was injured and marufuji+ Rikio had failed. Yes he held it for a year but that was because he was the draw. Noah outsid eof the big markets used sold shows often to people who weren't caught up on wrestling in 2007 they wanted to still see Misawa and Kobashi etc not someone like KENTA.

To establish himself as a proper champion not a transitional one so that when he lost it to morishima it as you say meant more. A 400 day reign still seems a little excessive to me but it does make sense.

Thanks for the clarification, I was less familiar with everything post Kobashi NOAH tbh, although I've watched quite a bit then.

[Boss Rock]

Wouldn't say he was the most unselfish, but I wonder if Hashimoto warrants consideration. It took him years to win a G1, he was the last pushed of the musketeers, and he put Ogawa over twice even after the Wrestling World fiasco. Interestingly enough, he reportedly didn't fight back even after the match went off the rails because he wanted to keep some semblance of professionalism, which he sure as hell didn't have to do.

[joeg]

On 2/25/2021 at 8:04 AM, Loss said:

So do people buy into the narrative that Misawa spent the last 10-15 years of his career desperately wanting to pass the torch, only to reluctantly have to be the top guy again over and over because attempts to replace him never worked? Or do people think that narrative is a little too clean to be entirely true?

I never bought into that. Misawa had some authority of the booking as early as 1996 when he pushed out Baba's wife. He had complete control over the booking when Baba's health faded in 1999 and Jumbo left. Then in NOAH he owned the company, was its promoter and lead booker. At no point did he get Akiyama over. At no point did he even try to get Omori over. At no point did he try to get Taiyo Kea over (then Mossman). Same with Riko. Same with Morishima. Same with Shiozaki. Takayama only got over because of the Don Frye fight in Pride, had he stuck with Misawa in NOAH and not gone freelance he would have ended up just like Omori or Kea.  There are just too many talented guys during his time having control over booking and/or promoting who's careers never reached their full potential. Either they all had incredibly bad luck or the booking that never allowed them any higher than that #2 spot while keeping Misawa on top was intentional. 

[Robert S]

Omori is definitely true, though the question always has been if Misawa did not see anything in him or whatever happened regarding the Hashimoto match put him into the dog house.

Rikio got two clean pinfalls over Kobashi during and ending the Kobashi superman run. Though once he got the title, apparently (I have never seen the match) he stunk up the ring in his first title defense against Saito (you could argue that it was not a good idea to book that match, but a safe first defense is not strange or bad booking, IMO; Saito was good enough to have a good match against, even as a non-super worker). At this point his title reign was completely dead (being put third on top on the Tokdyo Dome show did not help him either, obviously).

Shiozaki got the classic booking, working high profile tag team matches as a youngster. The only thing you can complain here is that Misawa booked him too old fashioned.

I agree regarding Kea and Morishima, Kea I guess was a bit the gaijin thing, choosing Rikio over Morishima was a mix of cosmetic decision and Rikio's sumo background.

Akiyama probably was killed by jobbing to Kobashi in Dec. 2000 and being put on top when Kobashi was gone for 1.5 years, so he felt a bit like a second rate ace (and him always being a bit of a heel (or at least being much better in that role), you might not even call him ace).

[NintendoLogic]

You also have to remember that Misawa was handicapped by the TV situation, which made it virtually impossible to create new breakout stars. How big do you think Rock and Austin would have become if Raw was only half an hour long and aired after midnight?

[El-P]

Omori would have never been a top guy. Ditto Kea, who was a not a great worker and had zero charisma. They should never have been put over by Misawa. You don't get to the top of then All Japan by being "good".

Rikioh got the rub from Kobashi coming off from the greatest run in the company (and pro-wrestling at the time). He failed. 

Akiyama never really clicked on top like Kobashi did. Something about him...

One thing you can criticize Misawa for in NOAH is giving is pal Ogawa the title. Ok, it was fun, Ogawa did the best job he could with it, but it did not work at all and probably hurt the title a bit then, although that was quickly forgotten.

[khawk20]

Baba should be mentioned if he hasn't been already. He was unselfish in the sense he had the smarts to book himself lower on the card as his skills diminished, something lost on a lot of North American bookers through a similar time frame.

 

[Clayton Jones]

I think the main issue with Misawa's booking of himself is in how he worked his matches late in his career, not so much who he lost or didn't lose to. Outside of a few examples he never transitioned to the veteran relying on experience and smarts to take on the physically superior younger generation. He typically worked equal to or stronger than his opponent, and if they beat him it felt like the luck of the draw. You could make the case this ties back into the manner he beat Jumbo, but Misawa has such clear momentum building that entire match. Besides '03 VS Kobashi I don't think he built to any of his major losses that effectively. Instead he looked like he was letting his opponent win most times instead of them taking it from him. All the while he was working slower and slower and spending more and more of his matches hiking up his tights. This isn't to discount the narrative that he was doing what he thought was necessary for NOAH's business. But I wouldn't say he was among the most unselfish stars either.