WWE MIDCARD ROYAL RUMBLE 2022

[Robert S]

19 hours ago, Alucard said:

They count just Kane with 18 according to the "All About the Numbers" video as the record. Dolph Ziggler is #2, having been in 15 Rumbles. 

I was wondering how they came up with the number of 15, considering that he only debuted the Ziggler gimmick in late 2008 and he never wrestled in the Rumble as Spirit Squad Nicky until I realized that they probably are counting the "Greatest Royal Rumble Ever" as well.

[DMJ]

Also, maybe I missed it in the thread, but when Dawkins came out, the apron still said Montez Ford. I know it was just a technical glitch, but, man, my heart went out to him. That was some serious "tell me I'm the Jannetty without telling me I'm the Jannetty" shit.

[Dav'oh]

NXT audience chanting "WALTER" as the Wehrmacht come down to the ring was inevitable. Wonder how long they'll keep the asinine name-change?

Whoops. Wrong thread....

Edited February 2, 2022 by Dav'oh
wrong thread

[Coffey]

In my mind, I don't see guys like Drew McIntyre, Bobby Lashley or Kevin Owens as stars. I don't buy them as main eventers. They come off as b-team to me. That's why when someone like Roman or Brock come out, they feel like such a bigger deal. 

I think Matt Riddle's goofy ass has more of a shot at being made than McIntyre, Lashley or Owens. 

 

[El-P]

1 hour ago, Coffey said:

In my mind, I don't see guys like Drew McIntyre, Bobby Lashley or Kevin Owens as stars. I don't buy them as main eventers. They come off as b-team to me. That's why when someone like Roman or Brock come out, they feel like such a bigger deal. 

That's been the strategy of the promotion, which is brand oriented. Let's focus on one or two HUGE names that we are sure are gonna be locked 4 Life with us because of the absurd money we pay then and give them the overpush of overpushes for years and years. Meanwhile, let's make sure no one else looks like anything special to make those two even bigger than they are. So instead of building a strong foundation with even stronger people on top, they are banking on the difference of perception between the two or three top people and a valley of peons, which means sacrifying pretty much everybody (while also making sure they they never get too much personal value, especially now that there is a legit competition). It makes for a completely useless and dire environment and dull as dirt long-term planning, since the only clear goal is that big match at Mania for the 2 or 3 same people on top. I mean, we're already talking about how Ronda vs Lynch is the plan for Mania *next year*. Ok then...

[SteveJRogers]

18 hours ago, Robert S said:

I was wondering how they came up with the number of 15, considering that he only debuted the Ziggler gimmick in late 2008 and he never wrestled in the Rumble as Spirit Squad Nicky until I realized that they probably are counting the "Greatest Royal Rumble Ever" as well.

Place To Be Nation’s sister feed, North South Connection, has an ongoing podcast project ranking every entrant into a Rumble, in order and each of their subsequent appearances.  So far they are in the flotsam and jetsam of the post-Flair 1992 newbies.  

They haven’t gotten to anyone that was in the Blood Money Rumble yet (mildly surprised now that I think of it that neither Taker nor Shawn did a quickie cameo in it), but I am curious if they will cover it, or are they just doing ones done on the event that bares it’s name.

That being said, it is branded “Royal Rumble” by the WWE, with the proper graphics, that are still in use, AFAIK there have only been what, 2-3 “unofficial” uses of the Royal Rumble format;

The Corporation/DX Rumble prior to the 1999 one and I’m pretty sure I read that the concept in an abbreviated form was used on a house show prior to its debut in 1988.

[Reel]

There was at least one Garden Rumble in the mid-90s that I believe Owen won. 

[Coffey]

3 hours ago, El-P said:

That's been the strategy of the promotion, which is brand oriented. Let's focus on one or two HUGE names that we are sure are gonna be locked 4 Life with us because of the absurd money we pay then and give them the overpush of overpushes for years and years. Meanwhile, let's make sure no one else looks like anything special to make those two even bigger than they are. So instead of building a strong foundation with even stronger people on top, they are banking on the difference of perception between the two or three top people and a valley of peons, which means sacrifying pretty much everybody (while also making sure they they never get too much personal value, especially now that there is a legit competition). It makes for a completely useless and dire environment and dull as dirt long-term planning, since the only clear goal is that big match at Mania for the 2 or 3 same people on top. I mean, we're already talking about how Ronda vs Lynch is the plan for Mania *next year*. Ok then...

Agreed. It makes me think back to my childhood watching WWF in the 80's. What was different? Maybe it's just because I was younger. I know when Hogan was on top, it wasn't like anyone else was going to really get a chance to shine on top. I do however vividly remember liking multiple people on the roster for a lot of different reasons. The Ultimate Warrior, Macho Man, Texas Tornado, Jake the Snake, Tito Santana, Big Bossman, etc. I look at the roster today & not even looking for main eventers, I can't even find anyone likeable. Unless it's like "Oh, well this might be a good match" but ultimately, a good match doesn't matter. During the Rumble, each person that came out just felt like going up another rung on the ladder of disappointment. The only people that really felt fresh to me when coming out were Matt Riddle & Damian Priest. Maybe Rick Boogz but his name & shit is nonsense.

WWE is also seemingly continually in the thought process that tomorrow matters more than today. So even when you get to the big shows, like Royal Rumble or Wrestlemania, you're not even getting the payoffs anymore, you're still getting "wait for RAW tomorrow!" Now more than ever as they killed their own PPV model & now focus on TV contract money. But then those TV shows themselves are too long & full of never-ending fluff. I have no idea what the end game is. It literally feels like they're just rolling their wheels until Vince McMahon dies. Even if the goal is to sell WWE to someone. 

[KawadaSmile]

So the Rumble had a weak collection of entrants, had no resemblance of a story, had nearly no noteworthy spots, a Controversial winner and might have made some talent look worse than they were coming in

 On the other hand it may have led to Shane McMahon staying the fuck away from the company, so was it that bad?

[sek69]

3 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

So the Rumble had a weak collection of entrants, had no resemblance of a story, had nearly no noteworthy spots, a Controversial winner and might have made some talent look worse than they were coming in

 On the other hand it may have led to Shane McMahon staying the fuck away from the company, so was it that bad?

I mean, it seems like a fair deal to me. Sit through a bleh Rumble and not have to see any more over labored Shane O matches? Sign me up.

[Jesse Ewiak]

14 hours ago, Coffey said:

Agreed. It makes me think back to my childhood watching WWF in the 80's. What was different? Maybe it's just because I was younger. I know when Hogan was on top, it wasn't like anyone else was going to really get a chance to shine on top. I do however vividly remember liking multiple people on the roster for a lot of different reasons. The Ultimate Warrior, Macho Man, Texas Tornado, Jake the Snake, Tito Santana, Big Bossman, etc. I look at the roster today & not even looking for main eventers, I can't even find anyone likeable. 

I mean honestly, yes. Obviously, there is a difference in the quality of booking, but another chunk of it is yes, you're not a kid anymore. There will be lots and lots of kids with nostalgia for this era of WWE? You know how I know this? Because I've seen nostalgia for every era of WWE ever, and hell, some for TNA, from eras that were railed online at the time. Hell, the era you're talking about was hated by smart fans at the time as well. In 2029, there'll be a post in the MetaVerse about how cool Alpha Academy were by a 15 year old from Malaysia or something like that. 

I'm not saying 2022 WWE is good, but the other reality is, @El-P's point about the modern WWE being about pushing two guys ahead of everybody else, and forgetting about the undercard...has been standard practice in Stamford since...1963. Push Bruno, Backlund, or Morales like mad, push a strong guy for a couple weeks to get him ready for MSG program, then cycle him down. Obviously, yes, there are differences, but at it's core, people book what they know, and what did Vince grow up learning? Vince Sr's booking. As somebody pointed out on Twitter, I think, the WWE has always been the most turnkey of wrestling operations, and that's true even today. 

Even during the Attitude Era, the show was basically Austin/McMahon/Rock/Triple H/Foley + assorted crap. Since, let's be honest here, the reason why The Godfather is a beloved nostalgia character and Lenny & Lodi is seen as Wrestlecrap is because one was in front of stupidly hot crowds, and one was in front of dead Nitro crowds. This is not a defense of the WWE - but rather, an explanation that they've always done this, and all it's led to is near-monopoly control of the wrestling business, billion-dollar TV deals, and now, they don't need to even give a crap about MSG receipts. After all, Vince is the person who pushed the old people who'd been MSG front seat ticket holders since the 50's away for a new audience - 

I think people just have to accept the WWE is basically the Globetrotters or Ice Capades - they're not really focused on long-term storytelling or even consistent storytelling, because it doesn't really matter, as they're still 1-2-3 in cable when the NFL isn't around and consistently #1 on Friday nights, and that's not even getting into the huge numbers they do on social media on the regular that people just kind of ignore. 

[El-P]

1 hour ago, Jesse Ewiak said:

I'm not saying 2022 WWE is good, but the other reality is, @El-P's point about the modern WWE being about pushing two guys ahead of everybody else, and forgetting about the undercard...has been standard practice in Stamford since...1963.

Not really. During the two strongest era in modern WWE history (speaking of Vince JR.), the undercard and mid-card was absolutely not sacrified to make the big star look bigger. On the contrary. There was an effort to make the most people look like star. The IC title guy was a star. The Tag Team champs were stars. Some characters like Hacksaw Duggan or Jake Roberts who never won belts were stars. There absolutely was a concerted effort in getting the most guys over, and the focus was not solely on the two/three top guys.

1 hour ago, Jesse Ewiak said:

Even during the Attitude Era, the show was basically Austin/McMahon/Rock/Triple H/Foley + assorted crap. Since, let's be honest here, the reason why The Godfather is a beloved nostalgia character and Lenny & Lodi is seen as Wrestlecrap is because one was in front of stupidly hot crowds, and one was in front of dead Nitro crowds.

Sure, but the huge difference is between then and now, is that when they saw that the Godfather, Kama fucking Mustafa Shango, was getting more and more reactions simply because he looked cool coming out with sexy women, what did they do ? They got him more and more TV time, got the girls to slut it up a notch and before you know it, the guy was getting some of the biggest pops of the shows. Same for the New Age Outlaws. Weren't supposed to get over. Got over. So they got pushed and got more over. So they got pushed even more until they became big stars on the show. Today ? Rusev gets the Rusev Day chants ? Nope, not gonna push him. Adam Cole gets over as fuck in NXT ? Not planning on pushing him on the main roster because "not tall enough". And even worse, people who are over and who are pushed to the "top", like Big E., get a shitty title reign where they look like crap and second fiddle, because you are not allowed to look like a star as it would hurt the perception that there is only Reigns and Lesnar. So it's actually very different and it's not just because they suck at booking (which they do), it's deliberate.

[pmo]

7 hours ago, El-P said:

Sure, but the huge difference is between then and now, is that when they saw that the Godfather, Kama fucking Mustafa Shango, was getting more and more reactions simply because he looked cool coming out with sexy women, what did they do ? They got him more and more TV time, got the girls to slut it up a notch and before you know it, the guy was getting some of the biggest pops of the shows. Same for the New Age Outlaws. Weren't supposed to get over. Got over. So they got pushed and got more over. So they got pushed even more until they became big stars on the show. Today ? Rusev gets the Rusev Day chants ? Nope, not gonna push him. Adam Cole gets over as fuck in NXT ? Not planning on pushing him on the main roster because "not tall enough". And even worse, people who are over and who are pushed to the "top", like Big E., get a shitty title reign where they look like crap and second fiddle, because you are not allowed to look like a star as it would hurt the perception that there is only Reigns and Lesnar. So it's actually very different and it's not just because they suck at booking (which they do), it's deliberate

This.... a million times this.  They can't just take found money when it comes to them.  It reminds in a way of the last days of WCW where when some midcard act gets themselves over even with something goofy (Jericho and Chavo in 98, WTR in 99, etc) they would at best ignore it and at worst outright sabotage it.  And it really sucks the life out of a promotion's fans.  It's just not fun to root for anyone. 

[Robert S]

Okay, but is this a new thing? I feel that this is going on for 20 years now. How long did it take until they finally gave Jeff Hardy a real chance? How did they book Benoit and Rey when they had the belt? How did they react when Zack Ryder got himself over huge by his silly youtube show? Cesaro was multipe times at most one win or good angle away from being a hot main eventer. Remember how Danielson was booked because they thought he was a B+ player, not deserving the reaction he got?

[El-P]

I'd say that's been a good 15 years, yes, although it only got real worse in the last decade or so, and completely ridiculous since the Reigns era began. Basically got worse with the Network era and is now at his apex because they get idiot proof money from TV deals and Saudis, and as the structure of the company changed toward more and more of the Brand over all.

[strobogo]

I think it goes back to Batista/Cena era. They've basically knee capped everyone who has gotten over on their own since then, unless they get so over it disrupts shows and they can't ignore it anymore (Bryan, Becky).

[NintendoLogic]

I'd say the shift coincides with the move toward scripted promos in the early 2000s. Recall the Iron Law of Institutions: "the people who control institutions care first and foremost about their power within the institution rather than the power of the institution itself. Thus, they would rather the institution 'fail' while they remain in power within the institution than for the institution to 'succeed' if that requires them to lose power within the institution." If someone doesn't need writers to get over and become a star, maybe writers really aren't that valuable. So it's natural for the writers to do what they can to nip that in the bud.

[pmo]

Yeah I think if I could pinpoint a time when it started to get really noticeably bad it would be Booker T in 03 where his tag team with Goldust was way more over than they wanted it to be and while he got a title shot at Wrestlemania 19 they did everything they could to make it a non event. 

[Robert S]

damn, that's rich

[sek69]

Orton mentioning in an interview that Riddle grows his favorite strain of weed is probably both why that pairing works so well and why Randy has been awesome in and out of the ring as of late. 

[MoS]

Orton has displayed more personality since the start of the pandemic than he has in his career since he was a cocky 23-year heel just as good as he claimed he was. It's been a pleasant surprise.