Workers who never had their best match

[ohtani's jacket]

7 hours ago, EnviousStupid said:

What even are Raven's best matches? It's easy for a wrestler to say they never had a match where their potential and ceiling was fully realized (arguably no wrestler does), but I'm not even sure of the quality we're working with here. 

Just in regards to Tito, he does have a match with Bockwinkel in 81 that I'd consider a classic and one of the best from around that time.

I will try to watch Tito/Bockwinkel over the weekend. 

[ohtani's jacket]

1 hour ago, El-P said:

He regrets not having been pushed as a top guy in WWE, as he feels he could/should (and I agree). But again, that doesn't mean he would have had his best match in this context, in the end. You're reducing what you think his best match may have been by saying "I can only imagine", which shows that you are putting your *own* idea of what Raven's best match could be above what it actually could be, which is someone no one, including Raven, knows. 

Which is why it's a fascinating question and why I asked it on the board. In essence, I don't really care about what Raven meant for himself. The idea of a guy who never had his "best match" (putting aside like I said the obvious of a career cut short by injury, illness or death) is quite fascinating, because it goes against the very idea of rating matches in some sort of order from the best to the worst, as the top match actually still isn't the best, a best match that never actually happened. 

When do you think Raven should or could have been pushed as a top guy in the WWE? This whole thing sounds like Raven thinks he could've headlined a Wrestlemania. I feel as I'm putting more thought into this than Raven did. Are you asking us who we thought never had their best match, or for other examples of guys who might feel that way?

[ragemaster]

Pretty much every Brock Lesnar Match has underdelivered to the level it could have been.

[El-P]

29 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

When do you think Raven should or could have been pushed as a top guy in the WWE? 

It's a long time ago and I really don't care about this stuff anymore but I'm guessing when he was hot in WCW, WWF could have snatched him then and he absolutely could have been thrown in major angles against Austin & Foley. The Invasion stuff was cursed, so by then it was probably too late anyway. Although as showed by his TNA and CM Punk feud, he actually was in better shape by then and had tons of great ideas left. One could argue that actually, his best match was against AJ Styles. But was it his best match or his best match (in a kinda pro-wrestling Tinder way )? 

29 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

Are you asking us who we thought never had their best match, or for other examples of guys who might feel that way?

The second question is also pretty interesting, but that's even more taking wild guesses about how other people think. My question really is, who do you think never had their best match, if such a thing even exists (someone extremely rationale would tell you that it doesn't).

Part of me believes that the actual best match is always the one that never occurs, and that there are only "best possible" matches in given contexts. By this reasoning though, everybody had their actual best match and that's it. 

[Big Pete]

4 hours ago, El-P said:

I thought exactly the same thing when I asked myself about Orton.

Then again, is having your best match necessarily about being in command or expressing your own style ? Maybe having your best match for someone in particular would be being the greatest dance partner you can be. 

I could see that if your best asset is your timing, positioning, foot-work and really subtle things we as fans may not appreciate but if you're in the business you get so much respect. A good example of that would be Psichosis who is held in extremely high regard by Lucha Libre legends from the 90s.

It also begs the question of context. I look at Rey-Psichosis and what made their series of matches so fantastic is how they'd change things to suit their environment. In Mexico it was more mat-based, in ECW they employed more dare daring high risk action and in WCW they worked the crowd more and largely kept it in the ring. The question is, what was the best version?

Similarly WMX just edges out Owen-Bulldog and the Canadian Stampede matches as the best WWF Owen match, but what about his matches with Hase in Stampede? It was a different side of Owen but one could argue that was the better version of Owen.

But yeah, I get what you're saying. The criteria can change based on the performer - just look at Mick Foley at King of the Ring 1998. Hardly anyone talks about The Undertaker in that match other than to mention how much his broken foot was an obstacle, it was all about Mick. Is that his best match? I could certainly see an argument. As to sek's point, maybe Randy was just born to be the straight man to Riddle's goofiness? It's kind of like after all those years where Hunter took him away from Jindrak, he finally got his goofy sidekick back.

[DMJ]

I thought the consensus was that one of the Orton/Christian matches was Orton's best? I rated their SummerSlam 2011 match very highly on a semi-recent rewatch. I don't think I've seen the Over the Limit match, but may have to check it out sometime as a cursory Google search reveals that match is also considered very good (if not better than the SummerSlam match).

I hate to turn this into a match review, but I think SummerSlam 2011 is clearly the "peak Orton" performance just because it highlights everything that one could consider to be Orton's strengths. Specifically: Orton's never afraid to be vicious or to fight dirty (because he's the uncaring Viper) but he is a better in-ring babyface, character traits be damned. Christian was a bastard in this feud so Orton is 100% the face here which means that while Orton does nasty things to Christian, he's always got the fan support. Orton is also a guy who does a great job of "getting his shit in" (i.e signature moves) without them feeling shoehorned in or perfunctory (the anti-Kurt Angle) and this match has them all at least teased while still very much feeling like the counters and reversals and pacing are all organic. If you're looking for proof of how Orton does all the "little things" right or an example of him pacing a match deliberately to build suspense without boring the crowd, this is the best example of that. Its non-stop action, but its not action-for-action's sake. Everything is sold. There's plenty of breathing room between the shifts in momentum. They take a weapon that had been overused and maybe undersold to the point of losing most of its legitimacy (the kendo stick) and make it seem like the most brutal tool ever created. Triple H wishes he had a match against Orton this good but he couldn't have, even though its not like Orton wasn't capable (my impression is that when those two fought, Triple H was in the driver's seat as he was the "mentor" while this match seems like a genuine collaboration between peers). Now, the match isn't perfect - in my blog review, I noted that I didn't like the finish - but in terms of a performance, from character work to execution to playing to the crowd, I think this was Orton's best singles match and I'm not sure what other matches would necessarily be close to it. Orton is a guy with a number of "should've been" classics based on who he got to work with extensively over the years - the aforementioned Triple H, John Cena, Daniel Bryan, Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, Rey Mysterio - but this match with Christian is that one notch above any of those that I've seen.

[Big Pete]

SummerSlam 2011 crossed my mind @DMJ and it maybe the consensus pick but from memory wasn't it just a play on the whole SummerSlam 2008 Edge/Taker match where Orton exacted every bit of revenge on Christian and used a bunch of spots on him? The performance seemed more tied into that rivalry than it being emblematic of Orton as a character. Granted I haven't watched the match in over a decade so I could really be short-changing Orton's performance.

[ragemaster]

1 hour ago, DMJ said:

I thought the consensus was that one of the Orton/Christian matches was Orton's best?

vs Mick Foley is his best match and close to a classic, Randy problem is he never came close to a match as good as this again.

[Ma Stump Puller]

I would say TAJIRI counts for this given he's never had THE match that was all him at the end of the day. He has a lot of good to great showings (the Rey Smackdown saga, the Nishimura MUGA series, etc etc) but never the "best" match, I would say. Maybe that's because he was never on the top top billing but his career is essentially a lot of reliable work but never really hitting any potential super peak.

 

 

 

[Timbo Slice]

Nah, he had the Steve Corino Hardcore Heaven match that’s was about as spiritually perfect a Tajiri match there was. And is the best ECW match ever, too. 

[ohtani's jacket]

How about Jake Roberts?

[C.S.]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Ted DiBiase and Mike Rotunda yet.

On 7/2/2022 at 6:06 AM, ohtani's jacket said:

When do you think Raven should or could have been pushed as a top guy in the WWE? This whole thing sounds like Raven thinks he could've headlined a Wrestlemania. I feel as I'm putting more thought into this than Raven did. Are you asking us who we thought never had their best match, or for other examples of guys who might feel that way?

Raven was always a midcard guy to me, and an indie top guy, which means midcard anywhere that wasn't ECW.

I never bought his character. Not one iota. To me, he was always Scotty Flamingo/Johnny Polo cosplaying as this brooding grunge guy. Not in the least bit convincing. WCW kinda had the right idea (lol) when he was "exposed" as really being a rich kid with preppy friends like Sandman (lol) and Chastity (lol). 

I think WCW and WWE used Raven exactly as he should have been used - a solid midcard stable and feuds (WCW) and 37,000 hardcore title reigns (WWE). He wouldn't have been credible or believable even as I-C Champ. 

For a guy with a supposed genius IQ, his wrestling IQ was the absolute shits.

[Timbo Slice]

Ted had the cage match with Duggan which is incredible. Mike Rotunda holds the distinction of not just himself, but his kids, too. Amazing accomplishment. 

[sek69]

Raven in ECW is a great example of "place and time" where the gimmick tapped into the zeitgeist of the times. The only point in history where that gimmick could have gotten over was ECW in the mid 90s. Plus I thought his best use was in ECW as the leader who could only keep dipshits like Stevie Richards along as everyone with an ounce of self respect would get sick of his bullshit. 

[Dale Wolfe]

I think Raven's "best" match could have only come from ECW really, and he should have lost to Dreamer long before he was on the way out 

Might not have been some technical classic but that's not what really matters. If Dreamer had beat him at the height of the feud then it would have been a much bigger occasion 

*

Never saw any Jake Roberts in AAA. Sounds like something i should get into 

[Johnny Sorrow]

The answer is Jose Luis Rivera. He wrestled forever in WWF, was pretty good, and was always....ok.

[Alucard]

Thought Raven had lots of good-great stuff in TNA and proved to be a credible main eventer there, heel or face. Definitely would've loved to see him do more in WCW and especially WWE but I've always been a big fan. 

[Embrodak]

On 7/3/2022 at 6:17 PM, ohtani's jacket said:

How about Jake Roberts?

Reading the comments on him in the GWE thread, this certainly seems a plausible answer.

Prior to the Cody match, could a case have been made for Dustin Rhodes? He had some great matches, but was there a match in his canon that was *the* Dustin match?

[Matt D]

On 7/3/2022 at 6:17 PM, ohtani's jacket said:

How about Jake Roberts?

I really thought the Jake vs Bart Sawyer match from the Hidden Gems footage was the Jake match we were always promised and never got.

[Timbo Slice]

1 hour ago, Embrodak said:

Reading the comments on him in the GWE thread, this certainly seems a plausible answer.

Prior to the Cody match, could a case have been made for Dustin Rhodes? He had some great matches, but was there a match in his canon that was *the* Dustin match?

Dustin/Vader is my answer there. As good as Vader is in that match, he was never better in a singles match. It might be one of the top 3-5 underdog babyface matches EVER. Let alone his best match. 

[NintendoLogic]

I say Dustin's best match was against Bunkhouse Buck at Spring Stampede.

[PeteF3]

Jake has the Sawyer match (which is like ****1/2 or so and almost entirely due to Jake), the Steamboat match from Boston (which is also a very "Jake" match), and the Flair match from Mid-South. I suspect Jake's stock would go up if we had more Omni footage, especially if we found a long match against a guy like Ron Garvin.

[ohtani's jacket]

I was viewing it more along the lines of worker who never had the best match they possibly could, as opposed to wrestlers who never had a great match. I guess it's possible that Jake vs. Sawyer is the best match Jake could have possibly had. It's a bit of a futile exercise since it's left to the viewer's imagination. 

[PeteF3]

It's hard to measure in that specific case because Brett Sawyer, while competent, is not and never has been anyone's idea of a world-class worker. It may not be the best possible Jake match, period. But it's probably the best possible match that Jake or maybe anyone else could have had with him.

[CurtainJerker]

My initial reaction was to look at Cagematch and sort the Match Guide. However, I too believe Raven meant "best match" according to his potential, where he and his opponent clicked and tore the house down, and he didn't see any flaws So it's not quite a Greatest Match Theory. However, I did go down that rabbit hole just for shits and giggles. Defining a "great match" as any match with 4 or more stars by Dave Meltzer and/or 8 or more Cagematch voters, here's what I found:

Raven

Raven had two 4 star matches by Dave: 4-19-1998 vs DDP and vs A.J. Styles 8-27-2003. For Cagematch users, not including a Royal Rumble match, he only had one match over 8.0- a 3-Way vs Chris Benoit and DDP from 3-15-1998.

One problem with judging wrestlers is a lack of sample size, however.

Dave never rated his Punk feud, and deemed Terry Funk vs Raven the only match worth rating in Raven's entire ECW run. Dave and Cagematch had no desire (or access) to rate his GWF or first run WWF matches either. Dave only rated one match from his earlier WCW run (a 3-1/4 star random tag). Cagematch's score for the Tommy Dreamer Loser Leaves Town was 7.54. All in all, between both rating systems only 40 matches (including battle royals) from his 1502 career bouts (Wrestlingdata) have been rated. 

As far as PWO goes (and deep dive PWO suggestions do not necessarily mean "great matches"), in the GWE thread, these matches were recommended: Rhino at Backlash 2001,  Raven & Perry Saturn vs Chris Benoit & Dean Malenko Spring Stampede '99, double dog collar match w/Stevie Richards vs The Pitbulls, Goldberg, and Saturn.

Kevin Sullivan

Kevin Sullivan has a worse legacy on Cagematch. Two from Dave: 4.5 star tag Nasty Boys vs Cactus Jack + Kevin and 4 stars for the infamous Benoit Falls Count Anywhere match. Cagematch shuts out Kevin, with no great matches (highest is 7.51 for the Benoit one). Nothing rating from Florida, Memphis, Japan, etc. 

PWO doesn't list any outstanding matches.

Eddie Gilbert

I also link Eddie Gilbert with these "great mind" booking guys. One 8 from Cagematch- Barry Windham & Ric Flair vs. Eddie Gilbert & Ricky Steamboat. Dave also gave it 4 stars. And Dave gave 5 stars to Eddie vs Terry Funk's Deathmatch from 11-14-1992. None of Eddie's territory work is rated.

A PWO thread recommended: 

- Gilbert vs Cactus Jack (Power Hour 3/23/90)

- Gilbert vs Jerry Lawler (WWA 11/09/90)

- Gilbert vs Jeff Jarrett (USWA-TX 12/29/90, 1/5/91 on the YB in error)

- Gilbert vs Jeff Jarrett (USWA-TX 2/22/91)

- Gilbert/Christopher vs Pritchard/DWB (USWA Studio 5/18/91)

- Gilbert vs Cactus Jack (TWA 8/3/91 3 match series)

- Gilbert vs Terry Funk (WWA 1/23/93)

- Gilbert vs Terry Funk (ECW 6/19/93)

- Lawler-Gilbert match on 2/15/91

Jake Roberts

And finally Jake Roberts has no 8 Cagematch ratings but Dave gave him three 4 star matches: Blue Panther, Konnan & Perro Aguayo vs. Eddy Guerrero, Jake Roberts & Love Machine, Cien Caras, Konnan & Perro Aguayo vs. Jake Roberts, Love Machine & Miguel Perez Jr., and the Snake Pit Match vs. Ricky Steamboat.

PWO recommends the Flair match, Steamboat Boston Garden, Savage SNME, Dustin, Dirty White Boy, HTM WM3, Blindfold Martel, 92 Rumble, Bart Sawyer, vs Cien Caras vs Konnan 

Jake vs. Brad Armstrong (4/16/85)

Jake vs. DiBiase (7/22/85)

Jake vs. DiBiase (7/2885)

Jake vs. Humongous (11/29/85)

Jake vs. Slater (1/1/86)

Jake vs. Slater (1/24/86)

Jake vs. Taylor (2/11/86)

Jake vs. Slater (2/14/86)

Jake vs. Slater (2/28/86)

Time Travel

Just a random thought but if all of these men were in their primes in 2022:

Raven would have created a meme character who really got over, and probably would have had better laid out and famous deathmatches.

Kevin Sullivan would not get over in a major company in U.S., either as his bodybuilding earlier self or the ugly brawler/cult leader. But I can see him being respected if he had stiff Japanese matches. I think he's a better worker than Bray Wyatt, who has nine 8+ Cagematch and 13(!) 4 and above Observer matches.

Eddie Gilbert, I just can't see him coming close to the legacies of Jerry Lawler or Jeff Jarrett. I can see him trying to be a Cody-type, and failing, which is QT Marshall, although with a small chance of being MJF.

Jake Roberts could potentially be Malakai Black.