Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[Alucard]

Late report from Fightful up says Jericho confronted Punk after the fight and told him that he's a cancer to the locker room and a detriment to the company. 

[Big Pete]

That's on brand for Jericho - jumping on a hot angle right as it's beginning to cool down.

Seriously though, no surprises there. You'd expect Jericho to confront Punk in that situation and their relationship had been dicey for years. It's just surprising it took this long to come through the pipeline considering how much of an open book Jericho is.

[El-P]

Chris Jericho took a risk with AEW. He could have kept on getting big checks from a then super hot NJPW, especially as they were losing the Elite and he would have been special attraction foreigner #1 and then get yet another big-ass check from WWE, which unless you're in complete denial you know he would have gotten, especially with a new opposition in town. There was no garantee AEW was gonna work, and *a lot of people* wanted them to fail so bad, for many reasons (and still do). At first TK wanted Omega, Jericho & Punk to build his company. He did it without Punk, and they managed to be more successful than anyone could ever dream of all things considered ("indie geeks", "don't know how to work", "don't know how to get over", "money mark", got stuck with NXT right in front of them). Successful to the point Punk finally agrees to come back, once all the base work had already been done by all these guys he totally shat on at the press conference, those guys who don't take advice, don't know how to run a company, don't know how to work and be stars.

Well, newsflash boubou, those people who apparently aren't worth shit built that company that got hot and big enough for you to come back after 7 years and make shitload of money in the process. And Jericho was a big part of it, as with Mox he was the mainstream (as far as pro-wrestling goes) face of the company. Jericho did not just came in to cash a check with AEW, he took a legit risk of being the face of a failed jumpstart company, which would have hurt his value quite a bit in the market in term of perception. Hell, even Danielson made a tough choice when he left WWE, it was not an easy choice for him to make on several levels. CM Punk had it super comfy. And still ended up a toxic fuck.

[Matt D]

Unfortunately, I do think I lose my bet with Tim at this point. There's a world where Punk can come back even with heavy animosity with the Elite but I think he needs some combo of the unofficial "new EVPs" in Jericho/Danielson/Moxley on his side and I don't think he has that.

At this point, I still think the ideal possible world is that he comes back for a few months when healthy and willingly puts over guys like Starks and Wardlow and FTR on the way out.

Starks:

Quote

"Punk is leadership in the truest form," Starks said. "I've asked him countless times about advice and things like that backstage and he's always willing and open to it. And so I do miss him. I feel his absence, for sure, in the locker room. I'm counting the days until he makes his return ... Punk has gone through multiple phases. He was around for that indie bit, but then he was around when WWE was bringing in indie guys, and he was in that system, and now he is on the other side of what wrestling is, you know, past that."

Wardlow had similar things to say, etc.

But I think the ship has sailed.

 

[NintendoLogic]

10 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Unfortunately, I do think I lose my bet with Tim at this point. There's a world where Punk can come back even with heavy animosity with the Elite but I think he needs some combo of the unofficial "new EVPs" in Jericho/Danielson/Moxley on his side and I don't think he has that.

This is quite the understatement given Jericho is reported to have called Punk a locker room cancer to his face.

[Matt D]

7 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

This is quite the understatement given Jericho is reported to have called Punk a locker room cancer to his face.

I also bet that if Khan came to Jericho tomorrow and told him that after some negotiation with the "Punk camp" the endgame of the ROH Champion storyline is that Punk will come back to challenge him, Jericho would jump on that in a heartbeat, which would be the most Jericho thing to ever Jericho.

I guess I was speaking more on the idea that we don't entirely know where Mox and Danielson stand, though one can guess.

[MoS]

If all reports are true, then I don't see how Punk's position is tenable at all tbh. Double standards for your biggest star is one thing, completely losing the respect of your peers is another.

As a fan, I am gutted. Punk's stuff on TV was almost always the best thing ongoing on wrestling TV, his angles were almost always the hottest, he was the most compelling character in all of wrestling for the one year he was back. If only he had not got in his own way.

[Tetsujin]

The incredible amount of pro Elite propaganda Meltzer is moving right after the dog stuff was leaked, this whole situation is funnier and funnier each time.

And btw, the elite being the ones returning first means nothing. They are the bosses of the company. They literally created it. Of course they were gonna come back, it's their yard. That doesn't mean they're more or less on the victim side of the Punk stuff.

[Jmare007]

Punk not coming back it's a shame because I think we all agree very good/compelling stuff could've been made if both him and the Elite were willing to do business. It would really suck if neither side could do what so many before them were willing to do the profit of our pockets and the selfishness of our fandom (we would like to see it).

For every "the locker room doesn't want him" narrative, I could totally see a "the locker room has warmed up to him" if dude behaved like he didn't have enemies all around him on a potential return. I think all of this is fixable but it seems no one in AEW wants to actually fix it.

1 hour ago, Tetsujin said:

The incredible amount of pro Elite propaganda Meltzer is moving right after the dog stuff was leaked, this whole situation is funnier and funnier each time.

And btw, the elite being the ones returning first means nothing. They are the bosses of the company. They literally created it. Of course they were gonna come back, it's their yard. That doesn't mean they're more or less on the victim side of the Punk stuff.

They are also not injured and out for 6 more months with an arm injury that negates any physicality.

[El-P]

In a perfect world, in 2023 we get Punk & FTR vs Omega & Bucks, then Punk vs Omega (Punk wins), then Punk vs Hangman (Page wins). 

But this is not a perfect world.

[NintendoLogic]

Like I said, some people will view any reporting that portrays Punk as anything other than completely justified in every way as Elite propaganda.

The name of the company notwithstanding, the reality is that Tony Khan is the sole owner. He hired the Elite and could fire them if he so chose (indeed, he already let one member leave). Being part of the founding means nothing, as Jeff Jarrett showed when he was forced out of power in TNA over his issues with Kurt Angle. Punk also meant more to the company's bottom line, so you have to think he would have received the benefit of the doubt had there been any ambiguity in the findings.

[El-P]

17 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

Being part of the founding means nothing, as Jeff Jarrett showed when he was forced out of power in TNA over his issues with Kurt Angle.

Not to mention, unlike Jarrett, the Elite have no share in AEW at all, whereas Jarrett was booted out of his own company via shares buyouts in the end. With their current contract status, they could have ended up in WWE (still can, although it seems less plausible now) sometime next year.

[The Man in Blak]

7 hours ago, MoS said:

If all reports are true, then I don't see how Punk's position is tenable at all tbh. Double standards for your biggest star is one thing, completely losing the respect of your peers is another.

As a fan, I am gutted. Punk's stuff on TV was almost always the best thing ongoing on wrestling TV, his angles were almost always the hottest, he was the most compelling character in all of wrestling for the one year he was back. If only he had not got in his own way.

If all the reports are true, then I don't really see it as him getting in his own way, as much as Punk basically having an emotional breakdown downhill from people backstage getting worked up about Cabana going to ROH. Which is awesome, because if there's one thing that the professional wrestling industry treats with maturity and thoughtful introspection, it's mental wellness. Rather than going down an inevitably regressive (and likely repugnant) road, I would rather focus on the fact that, as others have mentioned, this could have been easily avoided if TK gets out in front of that move and makes things crystal clear to the locker room. Simple communication between an owner of the company and his employees, that's all.

But it didn't happen. And it sucks because one of the throughlines in Punk's return was how happy and excited he was about being in wrestling again. He genuinely seemed like he was having fun out there when things were going well. He specifically mentioned how much he had struggled with disillusionment and burnout during his hiatus. Maybe he's the ultimate carny and he was just working under the guise of authenticity, I don't know...but it seemed nice while it lasted. And now, no matter how true it all may have been, all of it is effectively and thoroughly poisoned, regardless.

As our reward for this debacle, we're poised to have what seems likely to be one of the most insufferable returns in wrestling history for anybody that's not a Young Bucks fan. Can you imagine? We've already been treated to Chris Jericho yelling at the top of his lungs about how this is His Locker Room, so I can't wait to hear what the Bucks have to say in response to a video that melodramatically erases them from AEW existence. (Even the E in AEW fades at the end!)

In reality, it's only Punk that gets to be erased now. (And I guess Ace Steel, lol.) Everything else outside of the residual nuclear signature where Punk once resided in AEW remains the same -- the EVPs are apparently still the EVPs, there's no real discussion so far about talent relations changing in any meaningful way and Sammy Guevara still sucks. I'm sure they're all hoping that Punk was the only landmine they could dance on with this sort of approach -- I definitely can't say that I've ever seen something like this happen in EWR! -- but time will tell.

[The Man in Blak]

3 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

Like I said, some people will view any reporting that portrays Punk as anything other than completely justified in every way as Elite propaganda.

Thumb through enough pages in this thread and you might be convinced that CM Punk is the antichrist, so yeah, I think everybody's safely entrenched in their respective camps.

[Timbo Slice]

I’ve tried to tow the line of not leaning one way or the other but basically call out the preconceived notions are driving so much of the discourse here that it just devolves into “well, you’re not a fan of Punk/Elite/whatever” and it’s recidivist bullshit. The reason why the discourse doesn’t improve is because people want to be confirmed right more than anything else, and using preconceived notions lets you lose an argument yet feel you win because you can say, “I was never a fan in the first place.”

So much of what has been reported lately has been because the story had been dead for several weeks and even Dave’s “big announcement” fell flat. Which is why I’ve said from the start that unless it comes from Tony, Punk DIRECTLY, or the Elite DIRECTLY, I don’t really care. The political chickenshit stuff is tired.

[Boss Rock]

I agree that the most annoying thing about all of this (apart from Punk likely not coming back) is the argument over who was in the right and who was in the wrong by folks who clearly made up their minds just by who they're fans of. Either the Elite are wonderful good boys who never did anything to anyone and Punk is a psychotic egomaniac, or Punk was a badass rebel who stuck it to the man and had every right to punch the Elite for spreading rumors about him. In reality, they are all dumb and handled the situation poorly in different ways. And Tony just let it happen.

[Jesse Ewiak]

On 10/28/2022 at 1:09 PM, The Man in Blak said:

Thumb through enough pages in this thread and you might be convinced that CM Punk is the antichrist, so yeah, I think everybody's safely entrenched in their respective camps.

I mean, you're in the camp that we can't criticize Punk for his actions because he's a sad boy because people might've thought the reason that Khan had to be talked into keeping Cabana is just maybe, people took the not out there position that the guy who he signed to a huge money deal didn't want the guy he had a huge falling out with, including a lawsuit over, in the same company as him. 

But, I get it - the new view of the Internet wrestling fan is all a wrestler has to say is mental wellness and you can't criticiz them for anything they do, regardless of their actions or their actual talent. Well, as long as that wrestler is somebody the Internet likes. If not, you can say, extrapolate one dumb tweet from a decade ago into somebody being a conspiracy theorist, because you don't like they're getting pushed strongly. 

Again, from the outside, I find this hilarious because every side is terrible. The Punk side, the Jericho side, the Elite side. I only believe that the Elite story is closest to the truth, because it's the one that makes the most sense from the actual personalities of everybody involved. 

Punk has been a touchy grouchy asshole since the early 2000's, the Elite brought the head of legal with them to talk to Punk, and then everything happened and Jericho took the moment to take back the locker room. None of that seems out of step with reality, as opposed to ya' know, the Elite viciously going after Punk's dog and trying to get into a shoot fight backstage. 

[The Man in Blak]

I acknowledged earlier in the thread that Punk can be an impossible asshole. I also acknowledged earlier that Punk had an opportunity to put over MJF in the media scrum, but was way too locked into his agenda to be anywhere near professional. (One of the only things that I agreed with Meltzer on in this whole situation, actually.)

But sure, I can clarify a bit, since people seem comfortable with telling me what I think: the blow-up at the media scrum shouldn’t have happened, the fight after the media scrum shouldn’t have happened and both events reflect really poorly on everybody involved. I don’t know that there’s really been a lot of pushback from anybody in this thread on those points, but anyway.

To me, the difference in positions from that general understanding hinges around who should take some responsibility for this situation…and yeah, I feel like there’s a broader issue at play with how the people in power in AEW are operating that supercedes whatever baggage (legitimate or not) Punk brought into his specific situation. You’ve got an EVP and front-page star in Cody that left while the AEW was arguably at its peak. You’ve got Andrade apparently punching people trying to get fired. You’ve got various people fielding accusations of sandbagging other wrestlers or faking injuries. As a fan of AEW, I think it would be great if we managed to have a grown-up enter the room at some point and actually take charge of the situation.

[Jesse Ewiak]

All the following things can be true - 

1.) The AEW locker room is kind of a mess, because nobody respects the money mark. 

2.) CM Punk is the biggest asshole in this specific situation. 

3.) The Elite were kind of dumb to go talk to Punk at that point, even w/ legal with them. 

4.) Jericho will always take the opputunity to get himself over. 

So, I think when looking at all the available evidence, the fact the Elite will come back in the next few weeks, and Punk will get to go back to complaining about the Blackhawks on Twitter is the correct result, when in the long-term, both groups being off TV, and focusing on Danielson, Moxley, MJF, etc. as your top guys would be the correct result. Oh, and getting Starks and Miro back on TV regularly, as opposed to treating Yuta & Garcia like they're the next biggest stars in wrestling. 

[The Man in Blak]

The treatment of Starks, Miro and even Hobbs (to a lesser extent) has truly sucked.

[C.S.]

The GOAT EVP breaks his silence.

[Embrodak]

Did they “bring legal with them”? What we know is that she was there at some point after the fight started and took the dog away from the vicinity of the fight, and we have a rumor that the Bucks were talking to her beforehand. Setting aside that these people (especially the fucking head of legal, who maybe should have intuited that Punk’s rant had contract implications that shouldn’t be handled absent Tony) still should have known not to go barging in a guy’s room when he was clearly banged up, bleeding, and pissed off, is it “They brought legal with them to keep everything above board” or “Legal followed them when they told her their birdbrained plan to go confront this guy ASAP”?
 

Also, I know we’re all just blindly believing Meltzer when he says the thing about Larry the dog was bullshit because “eyewitnesses denied it” (no shit! The eyewitnesses have as strong a vested interest in denying it as Punk does in spreading it) and “he would have told me earlier” (lol, the fucking ego on this guy), but A) it explains why Punk was so pissed off he would throw the first punch better than anything else, and B ) it explains why Megha and Omega have both been claimed to have been trying to take care of the dog, as it makes very little sense so much attention would be diverted to the dog in such a chaotic situation. Punk is an asshole, but he’s never really been a liar.

[rovert]

5 hours ago, The Man in Blak said:

The treatment of Starks, Miro and even Hobbs (to a lesser extent) has truly sucked.

Who says and who are you talking to? Create a reminder for 6-9 months time for Hobbs specifically. 

[rovert]

3 hours ago, Embrodak said:

Punk is an asshole, but he’s never really been a liar.

Sues and Xs friends with abandon. Someone zero person should walk out with.

AEW in on the verge with signing WBD/TNT/TBS for big money for multiple years. A not hard to make decision.

[Embrodak]

6 hours ago, rovert said:

Sues and Xs friends with abandon. Someone zero person should walk out with.

AEW in on the verge with signing WBD/TNT/TBS for big money for multiple years. A not hard to make decision.

Signing with WBD is exactly why kicking Punk, a ratings draw, out is a silly decision.

Also, “with abandon”, lol. Dude had a lawsuit with an ex-friend because their friendship broke when a multi-billion dollar company tried to sue them into oblivion. Punk beat the WWE when they tried to prove he was a liar, and beat Colt when Colt was trying to prove Punk screwed him over. There’s one party here with a public record of being truthful in the least worked environment these carny fucks ever set foot in, and it ain’t the Elite.