Jkeats Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 I'm curious about what Cornette thinks is the best way to use Flair in the Invasion. Meaning, if Bischoff is involved, which would have been a positive, I can't see Cornette thinking Flair should be a heel aligned with Bischoff. But if he's a babyface, he can't be WCW. Ditto for Goldberg. How do you have Flair and Goldberg on the same side as Bischoff? I'm sure if I thought about it for 5-10 minutes, I could come up with something, but I'm curious what he said. In one of the trailers, this is addressed. His idea was to have Bischoff kiss up to McMahon for a middle management job in WWE, basically abandoning the WCW wrestlers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 I've got about 40 minutes left of this to watch, which I'll watch tonight, but I'll just say I'm pretty unimpressed with this. I think his ideas are way, way worse than the actual Invasion angle that did happen. Wrestlemania headlined by Steve Austin vs Mick Foley in a WWF vs WCW interpromotional match? Intercontinental champion Terry Funk, going over Eddy Guerrero? Chris Jericho being used to put over Sting in the year 2001? Hulk Hogan's WWF return after 9 years against Dusty Rhodes? With Jimmy Hart and Jim Cornette in the respective corners? HHH going over Booker T at Wrestlemania? Jerry Lynn and Nova as a top tag team? Road Warriors reunion? Almost constant worked shoot angles? Dustin Rhodes and Jeff Jarrett as a "second-generation tag team" managed by Dusty Rhodes going over Matt and Jeff Hardy? The Rock vs Jeff Jarrett, which Cornette talks about in dream match terms? Kurt Angle vs Rick Steiner? Taz vs Bam Bam Bigelow? Really? The only ideas I really liked were the Benoit/Regal match totally getting out of hand to make people think something serious has gone down, and the way he debuted Lesnar slaughtering and sidelining Flair. Flair/Vince as a Wrestlemania blowoff with Flair getting five minutes with Bischoff if he wins is also something that I like as an idea. But wow on everything else. I haven't even gotten into not leaving any openings to get anyone new over as a top guy throughout this entire angle, with Brock Lesnar being the one notable exception to that. And while he is right about the importance of fans believing in what they're watching, he goes to extremes to make this happen, when really, if wrestling fans believed anything, it was that WWF and WCW were enemies. There was no reason to do matches where the "professional wrestler's code" of conduct that says you don't try to really hurt each other is suspended to get the feud over. (Yes, that's really his idea for Wrestlemania.) There is also the hypocrisy of complaining about guys really hurting each other and no one believing what they're doing, a valid point, but discussing approaching Benoit and Regal about a business proposition for both guys to really lay into each other and leave bruises/welps/blood, etc. to get over the "real" nature of the feud between the two sides (Benoit would jump to WCW in his booking). This actually makes me somewhat thankful Cornette isn't booking anywhere these days, even though I really like and support most of his general wrestling philosophy. As a longtime Cornette fan, I'm pretty disappointed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Iron Chad Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Corny these days is best suited working with youngsters and recycling old things like the "four flat tires angle". He proved in 1996 that he was ill-suited to book any sort of a modern product. OVW under Cornette was good because of the old-school nature of the product, not because Corny was doing anything cutting edge there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 I don't think this really proves anything, other than Jim Cornette was a bad choice to re-book the Invasion angle, given that by 2001 he was in his OVW cocoon. His personal biases don't help either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 19, 2009 Report Share Posted September 19, 2009 Sounds pretty bad indeed, and the shoot-angle stuff is surprising considering how much he blasted Russo for it. Maybe Corny is really out of touch whenever he tries to actually build something, as opposed to making fun hateful rants on how the current product sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted September 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2009 I'm an admitted huge Cornette fan, but I'll admit that I didn't care for some of his ideas either, but I still thought he booked in the angle well for the most part. Wrestlemania headlined by Steve Austin vs Mick Foley in a WWF vs WCW interpromotional match? I don't see what's so bad about this. Austin/Foley hadn't been done in nearly four years by the time of WM, and it would certainly be a money match. Chris Jericho being used to put over Sting in the year 2001? Completely agree here. I'd feel differently if there was some kind of underlying feud a la Jericho/Steamboat. HHH going over Booker T at Wrestlemania? What's so bad about this? 2002 Booker T was going nowhere fast, he really didn't pick up steam until Shawn Michaels Superkicked him out of the nWo. Road Warriors reunion? WWE did it in 2003, and at least Dudleys/Warriors is somewhat of a dream match. As opposed to the one-shot deal with RVD/Kane that meant nothing. Dustin Rhodes and Jeff Jarrett as a "second-generation tag team" managed by Dusty Rhodes going over Matt and Jeff Hardy? I like the idea of a second generation team, Legacy has done quite well in the WWE, but not Rhodes/Jarrett. I was surprised he included Jarrett, considering he said he left out Luger and Zybyszko due to their grudges with Vince. Taz vs Bam Bam Bigelow? It worked in ECW. Cornette has always done worked shoots to some degree. The Midnights vs. Midnights feud, the WCW/SMW deal, and even some stuff in SMW like when he exposed Dixie Dyn-O-Mite as Scott Armstrong. He was smart enough to use them in moderation instead of doing tons of them on every show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted September 20, 2009 Report Share Posted September 20, 2009 Watching this now... So the angle starts with Vince saying he's gonna job out all of the WCW guys out so their value is nil after they're gone, Flair says "lol no, we gonna SH00T!", WWF crew led by Austin comes out and is all "LOL we not gonna SH00T! and get hurt" and...bdfbgvewdbnskwbv ksdjbgvsdbvgwsjv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 20, 2009 Report Share Posted September 20, 2009 Austin/Foley The main event of Wrestlemania should have been Austin/Hogan or Austin/Goldberg, two guys fans associated with WCW. I understand WCW really didn't have a big name main eventer who was also really good in the ring at the end, but a good match could have been laid out with either guy. HHH/Scott Steiner, Undertaker/Sting, Rock/whoever was the odd one out between Hogan and Goldberg would have filled out the top of the card. WWF vs WCW matches. HHH/Booker T The point here is that this match did happen a year later on PPV and HHH going over prompted a big backlash, be it because of the racist undertones, because Booker had been rehabbed and was over, or both. Cornette is fantasy booking, and all he can do is repeat that scenario? Road Warriors Reunion Yes, WWE did it in 2003, and it lasted all of one match. It's just weird because Cornette keeps talking about the need for creating new stars, and doing things like rehashing Foley, the Road Warriors, Terry Funk, and Dusty Rhodes on top. Taz/Bam Bam Bigelow Yes, it worked in ECW, but this was five years later, Taz was a jobbed out announcer, Bigelow was on the fringes of wrestling, and neither guy is thought of as a particularly WWF or WCW guy. Cornette has always done worked shoots to some degree. The Midnights vs. Midnights feud, the WCW/SMW deal, and even some stuff in SMW like when he exposed Dixie Dyn-O-Mite as Scott Armstrong. He was smart enough to use them in moderation instead of doing tons of them on every show. I agree that people were so turned off by Vince Russo's shoot booking in WCW that pro wrestling has overcompensated in the other direction, and now there's no believability. I have no problem with a well-done angle based on something real, or with the idea of things getting out of hand. But acknowledging that wrestling is fake (EXCEPT FOR THIS) within a wrestling show is annoying. This stuff isn't really too far off from Nash being a "professional" at New Blood Rising when Goldberg walked out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted September 20, 2009 Report Share Posted September 20, 2009 I don't know if I'd call this "worse" than what happened in the real Invasion. About the only thing I can think of that would be worse than that was is if Vince came out every week and pissed on a photo of Ted Turner in the middle of the ring. But yeah, the Cornette deal was a disappointment with a ludicrous overreliance on fake shoot crap. Although really almost the entire first half of the video was just Jimmy doing his usual stream-of-conciousness babbling about whatever came to mind, and it was way more entertaining than the e-fed fantasy booking that followed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted September 20, 2009 Report Share Posted September 20, 2009 Cornette's a mark for Foley, Flair, the Road Warriors, Terry Funk, Jeff Jarrett, Dusty Rhodes and Dustin Rhodes. He's not a mark for Hogan, Goldberg, Nash, Hall, DDP, Scott Steiner, etc. Given that it's his fantasy, it's not really surprising his fantasy WWF vs. WCW WrestleMania blow off card differs from what it should have been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestlingPower Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 You do make some valid points about elevating talent on that card, but it all makes sense in the context of how it was presented. You're crazy to be disappointed with this DVD. It is worlds better than all the other ones they've done & worlds better than what actually happened with the invasion. That's really all you can ask for, and who isn't entertained by a Cornette shoot interview? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 The thing is, it's not better than what happened. The real invasion didn't really capture the essence of WWF vs WCW, but it did give us really good feuds in Austin/Angle and Jericho/Rock, and the initial fan response to RVD was fun. This takes away the good matches, and uses guys not associated with WCW. Come on, he can't even fantasy book Hogan, Hall, and Nash to do anything worthwhile? Just the idea of Kurt Angle against Rick Steiner, Hogan being wasted in a midcard feud with Dusty Rhodes, and Terry Funk getting a top-of-the-card push should be enough to totally discount this (not to mention headlining Wrestlemania with Austin against Foley, a true WWF match that had been done plenty of times before). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 I've not watched the whole thing yet, but I echo the general feeling which is the rants and stories are great, but the fantasy booking isn't. Like it's been said, Cornette hates Hogan, Nash and Hall, so he doens't do shit with them. But for the Invasion angle, it sucks. I like what he does before going to the core of the programm, but seriously, it's not really good. I think it's better than what happened (really, what wouldn't be), but it's not even *good* either. Ah, still love Cornette telling stories though, but this should cool off teh notion that he's this great mind that would save TNA if he was allowed to book it from top to bottom. Cornette is a great storyteller and a passionnate historian of US wrestling. I wouldn't go beyond that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Actually I watched this and he stated he wanted to do something with Hall/Nash, but Hall wasn't on the roster of WCW at the time, so he couldn't. Also, Cornette did this in 4 hours for fun, its not as if he was really booking he wouldn't had put a LOT more work into it and made it so much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 I understand it was for fun. But while he says Hall was not under contract to WCW at the time, Foley also wasn't wrestling at the time. Was his plan to bring him out of retirement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 I don't think he realized Mick was retired at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boondocks Kernoodle Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Given the use of Funk and Dusty, I have to assume his idea of what "WCW" represents is mostly based on his time there in the mid-late 80s. Which is understandable, but makes him unqualified to book an invasion angle. Just the fact that he brushes off Goldberg like "eh, he's not worth it" shows that he's totally clueless as to what WCW was during the Monday night wars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 And from ECW he picked RVD (which is obvious), Balls Mahoney (yeah, why not, and he knows him from SMW), Jerry Lynn (obvious) and .... Nova. Yep. Nova. Love you Corny but... He's spot on on HHH though. "The guy who works with the guy who draws money". And he'd rather "Watch a dog lick his balls" rather than hear a HHH promo. Great stuff. Well, watched the whole stuff, it's pretty obvious that Corny did in in a non serious way, to entertain himself, so all of this is understandable. The concept of filming someone doing fantasy booking is pretty stupid in itself anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted October 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 I don't think he realized Mick was retired at the time. I think that Mick was supposed to come out of retirement during the actual InVasion for a match with William Regal, WWF Commissioner vs. Alliance Commissioner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 Corny sounds pretty exposed here. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 This wasn't in his wheelhouse that's for sure. He would've been better off booking the UWF/JCP invasion that should've happened in 1987. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 This wasn't in his wheelhouse that's for sure. He would've been better off booking the UWF/JCP invasion that should've happened in 1987. True, though that sells more with Older WON Readers than with loads of online fans who made their bones with the Monday Night Wars. Of course I could roll the ball bearings on Takada-Vader-Dojo (if I could remember it), while I would be talking out of my ass to try to book WWE vs TNA. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 Heyman booking the Invasion angle would've been a better choice although you can best believe that ECW would've been portrayed as equal to WCW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted October 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 The thing is, it's not better than what happened. The real invasion didn't really capture the essence of WWF vs WCW, but it did give us really good feuds in Austin/Angle and Jericho/Rock, and the initial fan response to RVD was fun. This takes away the good matches, and uses guys not associated with WCW. Come on, he can't even fantasy book Hogan, Hall, and Nash to do anything worthwhile? Just the idea of Kurt Angle against Rick Steiner, Hogan being wasted in a midcard feud with Dusty Rhodes, and Terry Funk getting a top-of-the-card push should be enough to totally discount this (not to mention headlining Wrestlemania with Austin against Foley, a true WWF match that had been done plenty of times before). Wouldn't Austin/Angle and Jericho/Rock also fall under the realm of true WWF matches? Austin/Angle was also run into the ground. Summerslam, Unforgiven, their RAW main event where Austin won the title back, and No Mercy. Compared to Austin/Foley, which really only last for about two months in '98. As far as guys not associated with WCW, the only member of the group who really got a strong reaction that didn't have a WWF association was RVD. The Alliance was more or less Austin, Angle later on, RVD, Christian, and then a bunch of lower card WWF guys (Raven, Credible, Test) and then the WCW guys like Palumbo, Storm, Kanyon, and Hurricane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 And from ECW he picked RVD (which is obvious), Balls Mahoney (yeah, why not, and he knows him from SMW), Jerry Lynn (obvious) and .... Nova. Yep. Nova. Love you Corny but... I'm sure Nova was picked more due to his OVW run, where he completely changed his style and became Corny's right hand man, than for anything he did in ECW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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