Who Is Better?

[El-P]

Over all though I think the body of work Hennig has is bigger than Martel's

Have you seen Martel's work from Montreal ? This is a territory I rarely hear about, depsite being quite big at one time.

I also wonder what's available of his 70's work, as Martel worked nearly ten years before Hennig even debuted.

 

It should be fair to note that as early as 1990 when he got to do the Model gimmick, Martel was doing pro-wrestling has a second job, as he went into real estate. He talks about it quite a bit in his (great) shoot interviews, saying that although he loved the Model gimmick (and came up with all the cool shit about it), he really didn't put that much into it as wrestling was beginning to be just a way to make some money to get cash for his real estate business.

[Mad Dog]

That's true and that is kind of my point. I don't think you can really hold Hennig's run "against" him because the situations were so different. On top of it I think the best matches from each guys reign really aren't much different in quality.

 

Having said that I do think that Hennig was better chasing the title than carrying it, even within the context of the severely depleted AWA.

I liked him as champion. He was a victim of booking to a degree. Like when he won the belt, the focus almost immediately shifted to Bockwinkel being pissed at Zbyszko for costing him the championship instead of champion Hennig. And the feud with Greg Gagne really hurt the heat for his reign. No one was buying Greg at that point and while their television matches were fairly good, Hennig looked a little ridiculous bumping and stooging for Gagne at the time. I liked the Wahoo feud. The matches were good considering how awful Wahoo was on AWA Television at the time. Hennig's promos were pretty good for the AWA but Larry Nelson could really suck the life out of a good promo at any given moment. God, I hate Larry Nelson.

[khawk20]

That's true and that is kind of my point. I don't think you can really hold Hennig's run "against" him because the situations were so different. On top of it I think the best matches from each guys reign really aren't much different in quality.

 

Having said that I do think that Hennig was better chasing the title than carrying it, even within the context of the severely depleted AWA.

Further to your point, Hennig was able to have some really good matches against talent that had no business being in such a good match, if that makes sense. It speaks almost as a plus for Hennig that he was able to make his title matches compelling for the most part.

[khawk20]

Have you seen Martel's work from Montreal ? This is a territory I rarely hear about, depsite being quite big at one time.

There are matches against Abdullah the Butcher, King Tonga, Jim Garvin, Steve Strong, Dino Bravo, Sheik Ali, and others available in singles, as well as tags with Bravo against teams like Tonga/Superstar, Garvin/Ali, the Road Warriors, and many others I'm forgetting.

 

In terms of 70's stuff there's a match against Race that's fairly common for the NWA title on TV, and some stuff from the Portland 70's tapes as I recall. Not a ton more, I don't think.

[Dylan Waco]

Over all though I think the body of work Hennig has is bigger than Martel's

Have you seen Martel's work from Montreal ? This is a territory I rarely hear about, depsite being quite big at one time.

I also wonder what's available of his 70's work, as Martel worked nearly ten years before Hennig even debuted.

 

It should be fair to note that as early as 1990 when he got to do the Model gimmick, Martel was doing pro-wrestling has a second job, as he went into real estate. He talks about it quite a bit in his (great) shoot interviews, saying that although he loved the Model gimmick (and came up with all the cool @#!*% about it), he really didn't put that much into it as wrestling was beginning to be just a way to make some money to get cash for his real estate business.

 

I have a bunch of Lutte International on disc but haven't watched it. I also have some stuff khawk is sending me for the AWA Set from Martel in Montreal.

[Dylan Waco]

That's true and that is kind of my point. I don't think you can really hold Hennig's run "against" him because the situations were so different. On top of it I think the best matches from each guys reign really aren't much different in quality.

 

Having said that I do think that Hennig was better chasing the title than carrying it, even within the context of the severely depleted AWA.

I liked him as champion. He was a victim of booking to a degree. Like when he won the belt, the focus almost immediately shifted to Bockwinkel being @#!*% at Zbyszko for costing him the championship instead of champion Hennig. And the feud with Greg Gagne really hurt the heat for his reign. No one was buying Greg at that point and while their television matches were fairly good, Hennig looked a little ridiculous bumping and stooging for Gagne at the time. I liked the Wahoo feud. The matches were good considering how awful Wahoo was on AWA Television at the time. Hennig's promos were pretty good for the AWA but Larry Nelson could really suck the life out of a good promo at any given moment. God, I hate Larry Nelson.

 

Nelson was terrible, but really all the AWA announcing sucked. Nelson was actually substantially BETTER than Trongard for example.

 

I also think Wahoo was good in the AWA. There isn't a period during his entire run there where I thought he was anything less than solid.

[Dylan Waco]

Meant to answer Cox's question the other day, but I think Smothers smokes DWB. I like DWB a good bit, but I don't think he has near the depth of Smothers, he's not as versatile a worker and it is hard for me to imagine him being able to meld his schtick into the ECW framework the way Smothers did.

 

Also wanted to note that Jerome saying he could name 200 guys better than Spike almost reads like praise to me. Why aim so low? I think Spike is awfully good and I'm pretty sure I could name 200 wrestlers better than him. Despite him being a major disappointment I still like Candido and think he was a good wrestler. I'm pretty sure I could name 300 wrestlers better than him with little effort.

 

Saying you can name 200 wrestlers better than someone seems like really weak talking point to criticize with.

[goodhelmet]

I thought we were beyond the Kerry was luggage talking point. Didn't the Texas set put an end to that nonesense? Most people who bring that crap up refer to his WWF run which was shit. Then again, he isn't the only wrestler past his prime who had shit matches in the WWF. He was having great matches with the entire locker room in Texas from 1982-1988 and very rarely was he the worst guy in the ring.

 

Also, the few matches I have seen from AWA Wahoo have all been good with a legitimate #1 contender with Bock in the early 80s.

[EricR]

One of the things that impressed me most about Kerry was how amazingly fast and athletic he was after he came back from his foot surgery/amputation. Obviously since we all know he had no right foot it's easy to spot little odd things (like how massive his right boot is around the ankle), but I bet if you showed somebody who somehow didn't know he had only one foot matches from '84 and matches from '88, they wouldn't be able to tell any differences in his performance. Anybody who thinks Kerry isn't an awesome worker, either has not seen much '80s Kerry, or just believes everything Meltzer says.

[Victator]

Going best vs best who was better, Sting or Lex Luger? I think Sting had more charisma and had more going on athletically. But Lex was a smarter work guy who was more consistent. I don't think Lex ever had a series of matches quite at the level of the best Sting vs Vader matches.

[smkelly]

I thought we were beyond the Kerry was luggage talking point. Didn't the Texas set put an end to that nonesense? Most people who bring that crap up refer to his WWF run which was shit. Then again, he isn't the only wrestler past his prime who had shit matches in the WWF. He was having great matches with the entire locker room in Texas from 1982-1988 and very rarely was he the worst guy in the ring.

 

Also, the few matches I have seen from AWA Wahoo have all been good with a legitimate #1 contender with Bock in the early 80s.

He was past his prime in the WWF? He was 29-30. Unless you're meaning that his problems had eroded his ability to the point that he was past his good days, which if that is the case, I agree with. Injuries bothered him too. Did Vince ever show any formal interest in Kerry (or any of the big World Class workers) during the territory raids?

 

I hate to ask it, mostly because it seems so ridiculous, but what is the truth behind Kerry's foot?

[Victator]

He injured it in a car wreck. Tried to return too soon and it had to be amputated. The fact he worked at all after that is impressive.

[smkelly]

So he wrestled on a prosthetic then?

[Victator]

Yeah, Col Debeers ripped it off by accident at an AWA taping.

[MikeCampbell]

According to Kevin, both in his RF shoot and in lesser detail on the Triumph and Tragedy DVD:

 

Kerry hurt his foot in a motocycle accident. He was taken to a hospital where a bunch of micro surgery was done to fix it. Kerry got up and went to get a cheesebuger and undid all of the sugery, at which point the foot was just amputated. It came to light a couple years later during an AWA match between Kerry and Col. DeBeers, when Debeers pulled off his boot and Kerry's prosthetic was still inside the boot.

[smkelly]

Stories like that always make me question more than I probably should. When I had extensive surgery done on my arm to fix some tendons, I was in no shape to go anywhere and I doubt the doctors or nurses...let alone my significant other would have allowed me to do such a thing. Must have been one helluva cheeseburger though.

[Jingus]

The cheeseburger story is actually true? I always thought it was just one of those wacky Sleaze List rumors.

 

Meant to answer Cox's question the other day, but I think Smothers smokes DWB. I like DWB a good bit, but I don't think he has near the depth of Smothers, he's not as versatile a worker and it is hard for me to imagine him being able to meld his schtick into the ECW framework the way Smothers did.

Here's another reason to love Smothers. He's in the minority of big name stars that don't give a shit about doing a job to local indy nobodies. Lots of indy promoters won't even bother asking stars to lose to their local guys, because most of the stars typically refuse to do jobs, especially on one-shot house shows with no angle. So most star-vs-nobody matches are booked either for the star to win, or some kind of lame no contest. However, there's a few wrestlers who genuinely want to help the young guys out, and will actually change the finish in the ring if the promoter is too much of a pussy to ask them to lay down for a rookie. I've personally seen Smothers do that on two separate occasions, with a philosophy of "hey, this kid has to come back here next week, I don't". Clean pinfall to the short skinny backyard-looking dude with Hot Topic gear, 1-2-3. He's not the only one, I've seen Ricky Morton and both of the Dundees do the same thing, but Tracy goes out of his way to put over the weekend warriors. That's a level of professionalism which is almost unheard-of and should be praised.

[Resident Evil]

Does Smothers still wrestle? I heard he had a lot of concussion problems which were causing scary behavour.

[Resident Evil]

Going best vs best who was better, Sting or Lex Luger? I think Sting had more charisma and had more going on athletically. But Lex was a smarter work guy who was more consistent. I don't think Lex ever had a series of matches quite at the level of the best Sting vs Vader matches.

Sting is better overall though Luger does have some qualities that are better than Sting. Each can be better than the other. It depends on the night, the oppenent and what's going on.

 

Both of them are responsible for one of my all time fav wrestling moments. That was when Sting came down injured, slapped Luger in the face during his title match against Flair while Luger was down and out. Sting's motivation causes Luger to go insane which leads to one of the best goosebumping producing Superman wrestler comebacks ever.

[Frankensteiner]

Sting/Luger is tough. There are some matches where Sting just looks amazing and I don't think Luger reached those levels. It seems to me like Sting may have more great matches and Luger more good ones?

 

Are there any Sting matches worth checking out from late '94-95. Like the feuds with Avalanche, Bubba, Meng, etc.?

[Loss]

I remember liking Sting/Meng at the GAB. Sting and Austin had a terrific pair of matches on WCW SN -- 01/94 and 04/95. There's the Sting/Keirn match that people like, but I haven't seen. Vader/Sting at Fall Brawl '94 is weirdly booked, but is at the level of their other matches from a work point of view.

 

I like Luger, but Sting is ahead of him.

[Victator]

Sting/Avalanche is really good. I think Sting/Meng at the 95 Bash is one of his best matches period.

 

I wish Luger had wrestled Vader in 90 or 91.

[MikeCampbell]

Must have been one helluva cheeseburger though.

It's hospital food, so I very much doubt that.

 

The cheeseburger story is actually true? I always thought it was just one of those wacky Sleaze List rumors.

I don't know if it's *true* or not, but that's what Kevin said in the '03 shoot, unless my memory is off.

[Frankensteiner]

Sting/Keirn is alright but nothing to go out of your way to see. Sting's finish was pretty cool, though.

 

Which Sting/Avalanche match are you talking about, Vic? The one from Starrcade '94?

 

I've seen the viewer's choice match from the Main Event on youtube, but Bischoff & Heenan ruined it with their commentary and Sullivan/Brutus did a run-in. IIRC, there was also a Clash match between the two where Angel/Bubba turned on Sting at the end.

[Victator]

Yeah Starrcade 94.