Who Is Better?

[S.L.L.]

One of the things that impressed me most about Kerry was how amazingly fast and athletic he was after he came back from his foot surgery/amputation. Obviously since we all know he had no right foot it's easy to spot little odd things (like how massive his right boot is around the ankle), but I bet if you showed somebody who somehow didn't know he had only one foot matches from '84 and matches from '88, they wouldn't be able to tell any differences in his performance.

You don't have to bet. As I mentioned in the Texas results podcast, I showed the Kerry/Kevin vs. Gordy/Roberts Badstreet Match to a friend of mine and his girlfriend one night, and at one point, he leaned over to his girl and asked "hey, honey, guess which one of these guys doesn't have a foot?". I assume she ruled out Kevin, but beyond that, she couldn't tell. He gets a similar reaction anytime I watch the '92 Rumble with someone who didn't know about the amputation before. I tend to agree with Will that his WWF run was super underwhelming, but I did like his showing in that match, if only because of how perfectly it played into the whole "Flair vs. the World" storyline of the match. Flair is already having to fight off basically the entire WWF roster single-handedly, and then Kerry rolls out, and it's like "oh, fuck...YOU again?!". Kinda made me wish that they did more with Valentine in that match and that Garvin and Dusty were still on the roster.

[Dylan Waco]

Sting had a better career than Luger. His best matches were better, he was more consistent, he had a unique charm that Luger never had, et. Lex was a better opponent for Flair and I doubt Sting as a heel could have ever been as awesome as 89 heel Lex was. But if you asked me who I would rather have a career retrospective of I would take Sting without so much as a second thought.

[El-P]

Sting wasn't as good as Luger at first, and I was never a big fan of the surfer character, but he got better than Luger pretty quickly, and when Luger dropped off, Sting peaked and had quite a bit of tremendous match in the mid-90's, matches' better than Luger's best, in which he contributed a lot. Sting overall, by a large margin I would say.

[Frankensteiner]

So how about:

 

Duggan ('82-'86) v. Kerry ('82-'86)?

 

and

 

Mid-South v World Class?

[Matt D]

Two Duggan 84 observation: Watts was very capable in making Duggan look like a force of nature. I saw a 2 (jobbers) on 1 handicap match with him last night and it was slightly more interesting than the usual MONSTER vs enhancement talent handicap match. Just the way he was manhandling the guys with a bit more effort then you usually see in this made it all somehow more meaningful.

 

Also, he was definitely more willing to a string of fast spots, well and successfully at this point, but only when the situation warranted.

[Victator]

See I don't think Sting was more consistent. Sting was more impressive athletically and if he was in with the right guy he could be amazing. But I think in default mode Lex was better. I don't think Sting passed by Luger til 92 and that was more Lex slipping than anything else.

 

Though I would rather watch Sting. He is one of those rare guys I would rather watch him in a shitty match than other guys good ones.

[smkelly]

I'd go Sting, easily. Luger's best early opponent was Ric Flair. But Sting had that *one* Flair match that trumps anything Luger did with Flair. Luger was slightly more a victim of bad booking (maybe more than slightly) than Sting, but the overwhelming majority of fans saw Sting as the superior wrestler/entertainer than Luger anyway, but that was generally not workrate related. To me it though. I despise the way Luger did things in the ring. Like the walk-all-the-fucking-way-across-the-ring-with-his-hands-up-in-a-double-axe-handle-spot. Or his too loud screams of “pain”. Sting never did that kind of shit. Sting cleared rings in a brawling capacity that rivaled some of the best in the business.

 

The measuring stick mostly for me is measuring the matches both had against similar opponents. Like Flair and Brian Pillman. Sting’s matches against them were better than Luger’s matches against them. Add in the Vader series and Nitro matches against Page and Benoit, Sting is clearly to me the better worker of the two.

[Victator]

Luger had better matches with Flair and Pillman. The only great match Sting had with Flair was the first Clash and Luger/Flair from the Bash was at worst on the same level.

[Dylan Waco]

I'd go Sting, easily. Luger's best early opponent was Ric Flair. But Sting had that *one* Flair match that trumps anything Luger did with Flair. Luger was slightly more a victim of bad booking (maybe more than slightly) than Sting, but the overwhelming majority of fans saw Sting as the superior wrestler/entertainer than Luger anyway, but that was generally not workrate related. To me it though. I despise the way Luger did things in the ring. Like the walk-all-the-fucking-way-across-the-ring-with-his-hands-up-in-a-double-axe-handle-spot. Or his too loud screams of “pain”. Sting never did that kind of shit. Sting cleared rings in a brawling capacity that rivaled some of the best in the business.

 

The measuring stick mostly for me is measuring the matches both had against similar opponents. Like Flair and Brian Pillman. Sting’s matches against them were better than Luger’s matches against them. Add in the Vader series and Nitro matches against Page and Benoit, Sting is clearly to me the better worker of the two.

Luger definitely had better matches with Flair. I don't even think that is arguable. I like the Clash I match but that's more of a star making performance by Flair than anything else and it's not as good as the best two or three Flair v. Lex matches.

[shoe]

Luger had much better matches against Pillman. I don't think Sting had too many againt Pillman. I remember one from WCW Sat. Night though. While Luger had great ones from the Clash and Havoc 89. I still prefer Sting's body of work. Sting in 92 was having great matches with Rude, Vader, and had a bunch of great tag bouts on t.v. . In 89 Luger was better. He had better matches against Flair, Windham, Arn. etc. By the time Luger left WCW Sting surpassed him.

[Frankensteiner]

Those Flair/Luger matches aren't anything special. The Starrcade match they had felt so tired and predictable. It was totally Flair on autopilot with the constant begging off and the usual Flair spots. I liked Flair/Sting from the Clash much better. Also, there's a good Flair/Sting from WCWSN in 93.

[Frankensteiner]

Luger had much better matches against Pillman. I don't think Sting had too many againt Pillman. I remember one from WCW Sat. Night though. While Luger had great ones from the Clash and Havoc 89. I still prefer Sting's body of work. Sting in 92 was having great matches with Rude, Vader, and had a bunch of great tag bouts on t.v. . In 89 Luger was better. He had better matches against Flair, Windham, Arn. etc. By the time Luger left WCW Sting surpassed him.

I thought Sting/Rude only had the one KOC draw at the Clash in 92. As I recall, it was kind of boring. I'd like to know if they had more matches that year. From what I've seen, the Sting/Rude matches are some of the most disappointing because you would think these guys would work great together.

[Loss]

Flair/Luger at Bash '88 has Luger still becoming good, and the two still working out the kinks of "their" match. I like the match, but there are things like the bearhug spot that go on way too long that they'd refine later.

 

By Starrcade, Luger has improved exponentially and they have a great match, with Luger getting less winded and his selling of the knee injury being really good.

 

Side note: I was still a fairly new wrestling fan around this time. I remember seeing a promo a week after Starrcade where Luger wasn't hobbling around or anything, wondering why he wasn't still hurt. Then I realized wrestling doesn't work that way, which is a shame, because it would be awesome if it did.

 

Starrcade '89 is a match I need to watch in full sometime. I've only seen the clipped commercial version. It's bizarro world Flair/Luger since Luger is working heel, and it's shorter than their other matches, but I'd still like to see it.

 

Wrestle War '90 was their best match, as Luger is at his peak and the Sting thing would be an iconic moment in a company that was better at self promotion.

 

Capital Combat I think is great also for Flair bleeding a gusher and Luger working through a legit injury and still putting on a good performance, but I hate the finish.

 

Clash XII is ridiculously heated, but it's just a condensed version of their previous matches.

[Victator]

Those Flair/Luger matches aren't anything special. The Starrcade match they had felt so tired and predictable. It was totally Flair on autopilot with the constant begging off and the usual Flair spots. I liked Flair/Sting from the Clash much better. Also, there's a good Flair/Sting from WCWSN in 93.

It feels like a bigger deal. But Sting is too inexperienced at the time to go 45 minutes. After that they did not have another match as good as the Flair/Luger matches from 90. Or the GAB 88 match which felt like a really big deal.

[ohtani's jacket]

Sting/Flair matches suck. Even the worst Luger/Flair match is better than a Sting/Flair match. Sting was never a great worker but he reached that point where he "got" what he was supposed to do and did it well. Luger was awesome in '89 and even into 1990 and is so ridiculously fun to get behind.

[Victator]

I also think from his WCW return on he was pretty underrated. Even by 99 he could have good matches with Rey Mysterio or Goldberg and work them differently.

 

I saw his match with Muta from Starrcade and what is left is really good. Some great selling of his leg being injured. I think its better than Sting/Muta from the same show.

 

I don't want it to sound like I'm shitting on Sting. He is one of my all time favorites. I just thought him and Luger make an interesting comparison since they have different strengths while leading very similar career paths.

[shoe]

Luger had much better matches against Pillman. I don't think Sting had too many againt Pillman. I remember one from WCW Sat. Night though. While Luger had great ones from the Clash and Havoc 89. I still prefer Sting's body of work. Sting in 92 was having great matches with Rude, Vader, and had a bunch of great tag bouts on t.v. . In 89 Luger was better. He had better matches against Flair, Windham, Arn. etc. By the time Luger left WCW Sting surpassed him.

I thought Sting/Rude only had the one KOC draw at the Clash in 92. As I recall, it was kind of boring. I'd like to know if they had more matches that year. From what I've seen, the Sting/Rude matches are some of the most disappointing because you would think these guys would work great together.

 

 

 

Their are a few handhelds from 92 floating around which they were good matches. The Observers from around that time the feedback to the matches were good. I wouldn't call them classics, but a good main event. I saw one in Houston live that I enjoyed a lot in 92 at the SHC.

[cm funk]

Sting-Flair from the Clash is a chore to watch. So many repeated spots. They had enough stuff for 15 minutes and had to kill 45 minutes with it.

[Death From Above]

Couldn't agree more. Sting/Flair at the Clash was interesting once, but then you're aware they literally do the *entire* match twice, because Sting has nothing else to fill time and I guess by then no one wanted to see matwork, or something (not that there's any real evidence Sting can do anything on the mat so I suppose it's not like I'm suggesting they should do that).

 

Not all of the Luger/Flair matches were aces, but the best ones absolutely crush it by a mile.

 

Overall I'd be tempted to take Luger as I enjoyed his high end stuff more on the whole. He had periods where he wasn't good at all (not that Sting hasn't), but I enjoyed his peaks just fine. Sting I also like and I think he's done a lot to work through more than one questionable program in his time, but I'd have a hard time putting together a list of what I thought his supposedly great matches are once you got past a couple. Sting is also one of the worst promos among top level guys in US history for long periods of time. Very goofy guy even for wrestling. Silent Sting in WCW was a blessing in disguise, at least for a time. Haven't really looked at it close but I suspect if I went through it all I'd come away thinking Luger might be a little underrated as a promo.

[Victator]

I think in 88 Sting was a great promo. He had this crazy energy that made you hang on his every word and love him. Then they tried to "fix" him and he lost it for awhile. I actually think in his TNA run he has been one of the best promo guys in wrestling. He has this sincerity and conviction in his delivery that makes you buy into whatever shitty angle he is working.

[Resident Evil]

I think in 88 Sting was a great promo. He had this crazy energy that made you hang on his every word and love him.

Hit the nail right on the head. Early Sting promos were insanely awesome. I remember loving them when I first saw his promos in 89. Luger too had awesome energy in his promos and it helped draw me in along with the more intense/sport like wrestling to WCW.

[smkelly]

Sting in TNA has been underwhelming mic stuff though.

 

"I'll tell you what Kurt Angle. Kurt, at LockDown, it's going to be me and you Kurt. One on one Kurt. Sting versus Kurt Angle. Oh. And Kurt. My bat is coming with me Kurt." I swear that I heard a Sting promo like that a year or so back on TV.

 

 

(CM Punk versus the World)

[jdw]

Inspired by the DVDVR thread :

 

Lex Luger or HHH ?

At his peaks, Luger is better. I was one of the first people to be singing his 89 work:) Always been a big fan. Overall though, I have to go with HHH.

 

People in 1989 were singing praise of Lex's work. I think he won Most Improved in the WON.

 

John

[Resident Evil]

Inspired by the DVDVR thread :

 

Lex Luger or HHH ?

At his peaks, Luger is better. I was one of the first people to be singing his 89 work:) Always been a big fan. Overall though, I have to go with HHH.

 

People in 1989 were singing praise of Lex's work. I think he won Most Improved in the WON.

 

John

 

Yeah, I was shouting it out from the rooftops.

[jdw]

Dylan's comments on Curt moving from the AWA to the WWF are pretty interesting. I recall being really underwhelmed by Curt's 80s work that made it onto the original WWF 80s set, and scratching my head over how highly rated some of it was. I think Dylan nails it: bumping, stooging, a move or two, stomp&punch... and really didn't work a holds at all. There was an interesting Bret-Curt and Bret-Ted comp on the set, and it wasn't even the more praised Bret-Ted match (which was their SNME one in the 90s if I recall). Bret and Ted actually smartly worked holds, while Curt worked a really aimless match while on top.

 

He certainly had all world talent at that point. But it's almost as if he dumbed himself down in the WWF. I know there are a number of other Bret-Curt house show matches I have on the list to watch, and I'm hoping for one that's more Bret-style where Curt is forced to work a bit more like he did in the AWA to fill space.

 

The Martel stuff is interesting. He seems like a guy who would make for a really good career comp.

 

On Jumbo-Fujinami... I tend to see more career growth/arc than Dylan does for Jumbo. The Jumbo of the early Brisco and Dory matches is different from the one of the Terry / Harley II / Mil / Rusher / 1976 Baba / Brisco-UN matches, who in turn is different from what we see in 1984 when he's reached the top (AWA and Int'l titles and partnering with Tenryu). The Jumbo against Kerry really is miles removed from the Jumbo against challenging Brisco for the NWA Title. I also think Jumbo opposite Choshu & Yatsu in tags is quite removed from Jumbo in the 70s opposite the Funks or say Billy & Horst. Opposite Tenryu is in turn different from being the Int'l Champ taking on the Gaijin of the Month: here's a native peer pushing him to the limit for the top spot, with Jumbo moving not exactly being the overwhelming fan favorite (nor had he been in stretches of the feud with Choshu & Yatsu). Then of course against the young punks in the 90s which was an entirely different dynamic than he had with Tenryu.

 

Had Fujinami gone through a lot of the cycles as well? Yes. Each of them as effective? I'm not sure. There really isn't any Fujinami prior to the Jr King run, and in a sense that wasn't really "growth": he was instantly the Jr King defending against the Gaijin of the Month. I think the earliest Fujinami match is either his first defense (against a masked Piper in Los Angles) as I'm not sure the MSG match where he won it is available. It's more along the lines of Jumbo's UN run, without having Jumbo already in a position where he'd grown into from the young gun challening Brisco and generally getting schooled by Dory.

 

In a sense, they sort of flip some of their timelines. Young Jumbo came before his UN period, while Young Heavyweight Fujinami came *after* his UN equiv as the Jr King. Fujinami's feud with a Native Peer came before his brief run as the Top Star, while Jumbo's first similar feud with a Native Peer came after he'd been the Top Star for three and a half years.

 

Anyway, from a growth/change standpoint, I don't think Jumbo takes a back seat to Fujinami. Slightly different, but multi-stage and a rather long path from the kid opposite Brisco to being the Brisco opposite Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi.

 

John